Not much of an insult. Just a phrase.



"scumbag mutherfukers" would be an insult ... but no one said that!


They were not going to a 'better system', it was a business deal of property. Evil, but true. And Africans were as much in the deal as anyone....

America is a melting pot system ... the economy is competitive. DIFFERENT.

for one, you're all about the money. What's that? American.

For another you're all about the injustice. What's that? American

For a third, you want what you deserve. What's that? American


You are an American, 100%. So why deny it?

Bull****. I know lots of people (not stats, but people) who would disagree.

The (s)extinction of black Americans? Are you kidding?

Your ENTIRE view about Hip Hop is part and parcel of your worldview as tortured black American, so no ... it's all one thing.

I'm offended by your lack of patriotism, and your total lack of respect for the civil rights blacks that make this era possible for you. Maybe you world prefer to live in the 50's, or the 1890's? Or another country? You want separatism, maybe the country of Hip Hop?

Good luck with the self-Government...



America failed black Americans for a long time, and the repercussions are slow to heal ... I've argued this MANY times with asshole whites or the even SLIGHTLY racist. I get it.

But if you want to pretend things are now as they were pre civil rights, and hip hop is the same as jazz was then, etc ... you're gonna have to block more people than me.

As I said before.

The day a man with a gun trades guns for anything with a man without a gun, then you can tell me about Africans being in on the trade

When I speak of the statistics, I am speaking of the stats of the group of people as a whole. Surely you dont claim to know the entire group.

When I speak of the extinction of the race, I have to ask DO you know the number of young black girls that account for NEw AIDS cases?

DO you know the percentage of young black males that are in prison???

DO YOU???


I dont know why it's necessary to debate this on several different threads, but so be it. DO YOU KNOW the STATS???

DO you know the unemployment stats for black people today and prior to the civil rights movement

Do you know the illiteracy rates?? today as compared to prior to the Civil Rights movement???


DO you ? OR are you just talking.

okay .. youre right about it all

hip hop is the new jazz

blacks are still slaves with no new opportunity since 1776

and america is the worst country in the world

I don't get the "proper language" argument.
what is cockney? pacific pidgin? everyone can have his/her particular dialect and create art within this. we have also artists, who distort language, grammar, pronunciation deliberately. some respect them, some not. language has been used as a class weapon since long. proper accent is a ticket into elite circles. endless topic...
simple use of bad words is a matter of taste, and will always be dissed, even when it sells billions. so what..

the "insult" argument bothers me for one thing, in rap there is a good percentage of insult. battling, dissing, and also plain, anti-establishment, even separatist calls for fight. in a world of free speech it is taken as entertaining, as a form of art, as an expression of opinion, even as an emancipatory movement of minorities it is accepted widely.
to me it is hard to understand how rap can ever be insulted, same with punk.

if I did say, e.g. public enemy is bloody crap, then this would be personal, but in a free western world I would not accept that their followers would kill me for this. they can shout back if they like. in case they would kill, they prove that they are not part of western civiliation, ummm, like quite some rednecks and skins. they just found their caves here.

but when someone generally talks bad about rap or listeners, it is like every cultural discussion. purely theoretical, spoiled with personal examples. nothing to worry. rap is not a country. it is a battlefield that CAN and SHOULD avoid physical violence.

if no_ssl was a shoemaker, and I said f*ck shoes, I never wear shoes, he is free to feel insulted and start a discussion. but how successful would he be?
to fight back, whenever rap is insulted, needs to prove how such can ever become a case, when a certain percentage of rap itself is full with insulting language.
I see more a kind of patronage message behind it, when it becomes about who is allowed to diss rap and who must protect it. who is allowed to use certain expressions upon whom?
it becomes also a sad mentality discussion, to prove that different cultural or ethnic groups are using language in a very different way, but refuse to allow others to use it their way, or to use the expressions of the other side, when they are present and can hear it.
it is akin to the sexual harrassment discussion. when women are present, you can get sued when talking in a sexist way. but rap, country, hardrock can also consist of sexist lyrics.

but I could see that no_sll has a point, when he tells, he has taken much already, and has seen blacks taking too much, and does not take it any longer. still it may be a lost case in the particular topic of rap, because it will and has to stay controversial. IMHO an erraneous monument of a conflict. it can build consciousness, but no solution. maybe even it's a freeze-status. to progress, we must leave it behind.

but to clarify, I dig a lot of rap and hip-hop.
http://www.bitza.ro/ here a european example. grassroots rapper and environmetal fighter going top charts. new album title: "suicide of an angel" - controversial as can be.

Please don't patronize me

Also Please answer the question

Do you know the stats that I asked about earlier?

DO YOU or DO you NOT????


As I have said I have no problem with anyone's views here except Brian Lucey's, I think you talk but dont actually know the stats.

DO YOU???

stats of minorities deserve a much more serious discussion than hip-hop can ever be about. so, I know too little and would investigate when pointed to serious sources.

I'll dig up some stats and sources when I get home tonight.

Man I dont know what Brian's problem is but I do want it known

I love all people.
I am concerned about the problems of the Entire world. NOT just this Country, but the entire world.


I understand the problems of black people in America are largely due to the fact that there has never been an attempt at economic equality. Brian seems to see this as a focus on money alone. It simply isnt. Without money, it is hard to get much done in America.

I understand that there are problems that need attention in America and I dont pretend that things are better than they are. With that said, I dont just complain. My first step towards progress is my own education and gainful employment. I am also a tutor and I assist in improving the literacy of the youth of the world

well, u know "black brown and beige" is written out, right?

duke ellington said, "the word 'improvisation' has great limitations, because when musicians are given solo responsibility they already have a suggestion of a melody written for them, and so before they begin they already know more or less what they are going to play. Anyone who plays anything worth hearing knows what he's going to play, no matter whether prepared a day ahead or a beat ahead. It has to be with intent."

jazz is more than a quartet playing "favorite things" for 45 minutes in a club w. 7 people in it. 2bof4 "3 Street Worlds" has more in common w. duke ellington's ethic than 95% of cats jamming all night on koko do.

my point *was* alot of the nujazz musicians (who i have worked w. btw) combine the best of hiphop (use of technology, sampling, loops, fantastic sonics, etc...) w. the jazz aesthetic.

and, what i most love about it is that it re-introduces the ORIGINAL intent of jazz which was lost by many... DANCING!!!!

hope u get paid, tho.... surely michael reinboth's checks don't bounce! (ps, jeremy ellis, mark de clive, kaidi from bugz, etc. are very good improvisers as well...)

when you assist in education, then power to you, and when you use music in this, its up to you and best wishes. (plus AFAIK music has been an educational tool in africa since ever)
I don't see how brian and you should be enemies, from what I can read there is a conflict about mutual perception and acceptance in how to be perceived. as if more words and assumptions are spreading, than thoughts. to me there is pro and contra with both sides.

I really dont view the cat as an enemy. LOL I just dont appreciate the Dr. Phil approach of telling me what my problem is. And for some reason despite me asking him not to, HE CONTINUES.


LOL guess it's my victim conciousness

LMaO

ium trying to figure this one out... i see this all the time. its called trade in cash. maybe its where i live. of course a lot of them already have guns.... most are gun enthusiasts [and/or hunters]... im failing ot see the point of that statement.

i do agree however that we still have some ways to go with cultural diversity and equality. its sad... but honestly i see roadblocks from BOTH sides on this one. and sometimes its mere miscommunication and other times its complete ignorange, and sometimes is pure ego.

however i see little how it has to do with rap music... i think MAINSTREAM rap music is certainly ruining the genre [like most genres] for the artistic people REALLY making art over the bling mentality.

that's the confusing thing about SSL to me. unlike most other people who either dig the underground scene and hate the commercial scene (or vice versa,) it doesn't seem like he cares one way or the other what commercial hip-hop artists put out. and for someone who fiercely defends the artistry of hip-hop, that's confusing to me.

i mostly function in the underground... i dont give a **** about the billboard top 200 or massive sales or ANYTHING but the artistry of MUSIC. and i dont listen to any particular genre. there are LOADS of things i LOVE about hip hop.... electronica,... rock... jazz.... whatever.

who was it who said there are only two kinds of music: 'good music nad bad music'

lol there's no bad music. only bad musicians.

(ok maybe polka. and some hip-hop.)

theres LOTS of bad music.... pretty much the major label releases sans a few artist who somehow managed to be cut from their rosters.

i was being somewhat sarcastic lol, in the spirit of all this supreme "tolerance" that seems to be required these days

I didn't wan't to bring this up as I'm very well aware of how you view mainstream. But dude, you have to watch vh1 a bit more. It's not as bad as you think. There is crap, (to much) sure.. but there are good things happening to. And like it or not it's probably 1% of the world population who rely on underground. So being informed on what's going on I think will do you no harm.

The point of my statement about the gun trading is that I dont believe Europeans traded guns with African for slaves as this country teaches. Hell all they had to do was take whatever they wanted. THEY HAD the guns. They certainly didnt trade with the indians so why should I believe things were different in Africa

As for my view of rap/hip hop. I love to see record sales in ANY genre. I like to see money come into this industry. With that said I dont think rap has to be "artsy" to be good. I like good grooves, clever lyrics and good production. I'm merely a student when 50 sells a few million copies I wanna know what it is about it people like. I study what is successful about all of it. I've gone to the poetry spots and heard the "undeground" stuff and some of it is just as empty as the commercial scene.
If one man makes a "bling bling" record (by the way I grew up with those cats), and the underground makes a record about how the bling bling dude isnt talking about anything, then to me they are both discussing nothing


Man the way to make a good record IMO is to talk about a topic that people can relate to. (Song). and on the production side, the song shoud have a sonic landscape that provides a certain mood, that is almost a visual if you will. When the 2 of these combine, you have a hit record. (again IMO) (not a paper hit that is promoted and sells well but doesnt recoup the promo costs)

In thie event you have a real hit record. It has nothing to do with complexity of the music or genre. MUSIC is mood. Hit records provoke certain emotions. Sometimes they r positive, sometime negative but they make people feel something. THIS is what I'm after. I understand why people like Nelly, Jigga, Snoop.

I'm not concerned with who is more authentic. I'd rather study what each one does that makes him successful

I'm not telling you your "problem" .... I'm looking at your "like" and "dislike" and putting a chain of events together ... from belief to preach. A persons' worldview is synomous with their taste in music ... me, you, anyone.

And as far as "stats" .. statistics are such a lie ... the discipline of Statistics is certainly not an exact science. It's not objective at all. The views of the stat makers are always biased in. There is no compassionate objectivity in anything ... although was may still aim for it.

Do you follow politics lately? Both sides have "statistics" that mirror and oppose each other. What does this say? That truth is tougher than a statistic we find to support our prejudicial attitude.




It's unfortunate that looking deeply at an issue and the root causes of the views of those around it is put down as "Dr. Phil" stuff ... if no one is looking below the surface than the superficial becomes the valued reality. I would think hip hop is better than that ... pop music has cornered the market on superficiality, has it not?

You also might want to consider that as a white middle class guy I have a 300 year head start at living with opportunity and dealing with the balance between money vs. real value. Hint: all that matters is character, respect, and the WIDEST definition of self we can possibly RISK. It's a risk, finding joy. Not a statistical equasion based on ancestry.

A better life is not about the odds, or the stats ... or "my people" ... or about proving anything to anyone. It's a series of one-on-ones where we choose how to RESPOND to the biases and limitations presented to us, from our inner values.



But hey, if it's sales and victimization you want, it's sales and victimization you got.

The slave trade consisted of "taking" and trading human lives. Once this market had become establised there were plantly of Africans ready to participate as vendors. This made life easy for the eurpoean slave traders who didnt have to get their hands dirty hunting. The Europeans DID trade with the Indians, btw too. Theres no one race without blood on their hands unfortunately.

You have been telling me about my VICTIM CONCIOUS, since BEFORE, I repeat BEFORE I posted my views. THIS IS STUPID. THis was my problem with you on the other thread. The moment I said one thing your response was "YOU have this view of the music business also and it HURTS YOU"

I'd appreciate it if you would hold you personal assesment of what hurts me to your sellf

Now you tell me the stats dont matter, so it's pointless for us to have a discussion for without actual statistics whatever conclusion you desire is accurate. It then becomes a matter of opinion and this is nothing I care to debate with you.

I dont feel the need to tell you how your worldview hurts you, and I have no commen about your view of religion or economics.

I have no criticism of your belief system but I see that you desire to "HELP" me with mine.


AS I FIGURED U DO NOT KNOW THE STATISTICS THAT I ASKED ABOUT


You say
"You also might want to consider that as a white middle class guy I have a 300 year head start at living with opportunity and dealing with the balance between money vs. real value. Hint: all that matters is character, respect, and the WIDEST definition of self we can possibly RISK. It's a risk, finding joy. Not a statistical equasion based on ancestry."

The number of young black girls with HIV is rising at such an alarming rate that there's alot of girls that wont live to see life beyond teenage years. Would you tell these dying girls and their famalies that they should consider your LOL 300 years of vision that helps you to see what really matters???? (IN YOUR OPINION)????

Would you tell them that all they need is character and respect???

I've been going to the center for disease control and compiling numbers, but according to you they dont matter so man please just dont answer when I post.


Or better yet I'll be forced to block your posts as I probably should have ages ago


LOL I guess this makes me a victim IN YOUR MIND

I'm just tired of the blame game bro. From you or from anyone. You're too young to have really suffered so you're living it through these statistics, and your imaginations of the pre Civil Rights era.



Here's a stat I heard today on Tony Brown (PBS from NYC)

"70% of black mothers are unwed ... This number is HIGHER than before Civil Rights."

So how is this my fault as a white man from the North with no racism and a history of respect for minorites in my family?

"50% of NYC males are unemployed. This is very high as compared to the past."

Now how is it that more opportunity post 60s = less work and less family structure. Racism? Slavery? How about a lack of family education that ANY job is better than no job? And a lack of education when it comes to family planning. And a sense that making a baby is claim enough on manhood?

Education begins at home. Period. So stop blaming slavery on the state of black America today.


The people on that show, who are not musicians or engineers but real experts in the field (and they're black, living in the DC and NYC communities they speak of) say this:

"The self-respect for an honest days work ... gone. There was a day when no job was beneath us, and that was taught by my family, by my father. "

So both men on TV were from similar families, ones of self-respect, and a work ethic that valued the INNER process of a job and a family, not the IMAGE of what kind of a job that was ... or how anything LOOKED to others.

(aside: this is the same trend as middle class white high-school kids who wont work at the grocery store or at Wendys or Subway anymore as it's "beneath" them. This is a society wide issue, and it's sad. Hard workers in any field are standouts, and leadership promotes standouts ... ESPECIALLY minorities in my experience.)

they said:
"God is now 'Shopping'"
"Religion is now Consumerism"

on family:
"the slavery era separated the men from their families, so there is a history there where women dont feel they need a man. men feel manhood (responsibility) is too hard or not valuable, and it's been subjugated to maleness (babies) ... but its not right to blame the past on today. Black men I talk to, and they are open with me, dont feel able to do the normal family things that whites and other minorities do as fathers like go to the zoo, etc. This is partly economic, but it's more about their self identity"

"The 80s "me" era effected blacks in a way that is just now beginning to show small signs of recovery."


On AIDS: "In Africa women go to the cities to find work, and if there is none they often sleep with 4-5 men, not as prostitutes but for companionship, in addition to having a husband or boyfriend in the rural town they left"

They're not talking about promiscuity here, but a social pattern that is NOT from whites, its cultural and local.



My point is ... there is an economic component to black Americans in 2005 and there is a human choice component for everyone, everywhere, everyday.

The sooner you stop blaming and start educating responsiblity the less people like me will protest. And the Hip Hop component to this post ... how does that culture help or hurt these areas?




If you want to BLAME, lets BLAME the greedy Pharmeceuticals and the Bush administration for keeping generics out of Africa. I'll do that with you!

That's your beloved Corporate America at work for it's SHAREHOLDERS ... not the good of the people.

And if it had a black CEO, same thing. Because to get in the game at high levels we must BECOME the game and accept it's values.

I never blamed slavery. THat is what you are used to hearing from people so you expected it here. (MUCH LIKE when you said I had victim conciousness BEFORE I POSTED A VIEW). I made an example that started from slavery and extended to modern times. That example covered several eras, but you choose to pick on the easiest part of the argument to dispute outof context and pretend it is the entire argument.

Most of the problems in the world today have nothing to do with slavery. YOU are going back toooo far. However there is systematic injustice in the world that is a large cause of what is wrong in the US. YOU call that the blame game if you will but Its all getting a bit booring

The point of me bringing up slavery originally was to say that there was an economic motive. THRough the Civil rights period there was never a fight for ECONOMIC equality. withouth that there will be no equality.

I never blamed a soul. INFACT over a very long post I spelled out what I thought the solution was for black people in America.

DID YOU NOT NOTICE IT Had nothing to do with blame.
DID YOU NOT NOTICE IT Had nothing to do with asking anyone for assisting in solving the problems of the plight of black america????

DID YOU EVEN READ IT

YOU tell me that there is no point to statistics, but then you selectively post STATISTICS

Lucey this is beginning to boor me and I'm sure it's becoming annoying to others here. WOULD YOU STOP. THIS THREAD does not speak to the topic you are attempting to discuss. Furthermore. YOU Label me as a victim of Victim concious NO matter what I say ( I'm inclined to feel this way since you did it before I said anything).

YOU have a problem


IN your post you speak of people feeling grown from having children. Have you considered or do you know that funding for public schools has been cut ever since the beginning of integration???? DO YOU KNOW THIS OR DO YOU Avoid facts???

Have you considered that the undereducated parent is forced to take whatever job possible (read poverty level) to make an honest living, which leaves the children unattended. HOWEVER if the economic situation would have been better alot of this would have been aleviated.

So what you have is undereducated parents attempting to educate children. THE result is the stats you post above.

It's a vicious cycle. (Purposely implemented).

NEVER DID I BLame YOU SO WTF ARE YOU SO DEFENSIVE?

When I spoke of young girls with NEw cases of AIDS/HIV I was speaking of girls IN AMERICA.

Why is it that AIDS funding does not go to the communities where there is the highest rise in the AIDS rate???



But yet instead of discussing issues you give me a story about the epedemic in Africa. Lucey you have already said that you dont read my posts in their entirety

Now you are purposely changing topics.


Man we disagree. CAN WE LEAVE IT AT THAT. No we cant because the Dr. Phil in you needs to point out where I my flaws are.

You'd be doing me a disservice otherwise right?

F UCCCK YOUUUU

I teach responsibility daily. I teach the children that I encounter that though the world is unfair it is only through there own actions that they can change their reality. Also that there is a system in place that places them in situations of jeapordy, so asking the system for help in changing there situation will do little good.

I teach them to become College educated in fields that will make them enough money to provide a better standard of living for them and there children. I teach them that economics are important to advancement. BUT I teach to earn their keep. I teach them to sacrifice, get educated and take responsiblity for the solution of their problems though they are not always responsible for the problems.

Corporate America is owned by the stockholders. INcase you dont know the stockholders are MOST OF AMERICA.

So your gripe with Corporate America is to me a gripe with the people of America. WHO DO YOU THINK OWNS Corporations???

Corporate America is a flawed system, unetical NO MATTER WHO OWNS THE STOCK.

You want to make money that way? CHS and TRLG



I applaud "teaching responsibility" even though the "FUK YOUS" are not a great example of discipline or intellect.




AIDS in America is a back burner issue, thanks to the Corporate Economy you long to be a part of and applaud for it's values, even as you scorn it's predictable racism ... (and elitism and crony-ism, etc.)

Your 'solution' was separatism in ownership was it not? Is that not a racial solution?

You blamed the image makers for making black look bad on TV, did you not?




I have no problem with agreeing there is systemic injustice ... and I know right where to blame. It's the economy. An advanced market system with increasingly less regs on the major players is only going to get worse.

The more freedom for the markets where Big Money is concerned, and a defacto ownership of the government through influence, the less we have a Democracy of - by - and for the people, and the less we have justice for anyone of any race or belief.

And finally ... its the animal in human nature! Who to blame for that? And does Hip Hop promote or tame the animal?





If you feel it worse for minorities, I'll agree again. But where to look for a solution?

Government of the people. Not another elitist economy of black-owned interests playing the same manipulation of power game in HOPES of a just result.



Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Economics is about money, not justice or human welfare.

Maybe we can agree on that and leave it there?

I'll cease with the **** you statements the moment you stop telling my "YOU Have this problem" Dr. Phil They occur because as you critique me I dont believe you're worthy of my intellect. YOU have already said you dont read the entire post.

Economics is about alot more than money.. It's about equal educational spending, it's about having money to spend for drug treatment, IT's about a child having a better life. It's about funding for higher education. It's about being able to better raise your kids because you can provide for them adequately.

Blacks were given everything but economic equality. We still make comparatively less, we still have more people in prison and in poverty. I believe Economic equality was denied for a reason and this is to a large degree the ultimate cause of many of the problems that we have. If you dissagree then fine. But dont knock my wish for economic equality.

Hell I'm only seeking EQUALITY. why is this a bad thing?

Black America is comparatively in a worse position as a whole than the rest of America. I offer solutions for those problems.





PLEASE NOTE
I have yet to read what your proposed solution is, you seem to only be good for pointing out what you feel my flaws are DR. Phil. Where are your solutions????


Black america has unique problems, The current system does not offer a solution for those unique problems. I offered a way for those problems to be solved without hurting or taking anything away from anyone.

HOW DO YOU DISPUTE THAT???




WHERE IS YOUR SOLUTION????

Black america, asian america, hispanic america... they're all in the same boat. (Jews suffer the heat of racism as well... but since our cards are spread throughout the deck it's not as easy to just place a sticker on the whole ethnicity and define the whom, where and why of the situation.)

Nobody ever talks about asian discrimination. Here in NY, I read something like 2 out of every 5 asian males that try to rent will be turned down because they're asian. And talk about stereotypes. SSL you yourself even fell prey to accidentally stereotyping asians.

I think a big problem here is that each minority portrays itself as a separate entity. Throughout the '04 elections, Sharpton and Jackson constantly referred to blacks as "us" and everyone else as "them." That's not helping the situation. That's verbally segregating people groups. Which is fine, if you want to be segregated... everything that came out of their mouths were about the black cause. If these kinds of guys are so keen on equality, then perhaps they should realize that segregation is a two-party problem. I think that's perhaps part of the foundational problem lucey was suggesting with hip-hop; it's a ME vs. YOU music, and all the MEs are whining when some of the YOUs get tired of hearing the same things over and over.

And yes, I do understand the rationale somewhat: if blacks don't speak up for their own, who will?

I guess I'd just like to see leaders and representatives of minority groups (like Sharpton and Jackson) not just appear in the media and speak out only when injustices are affecting their people group directly.

phil gates;

i hear some of what u say but on this point i disagree...
to learn the keyboard, u don't need a "fancy grand piano."
u need a $50 casio and a lady from the block to teach u...

(for less than what a playstation rig costs, u can get a keyboard today that will blow the doors off a roland d50 or a yamaha dx7 or kurzweil k250 for that matter)

the reason kids don't learn to play piano is NOT because they can't afford a keyboard, it's because they don't want to sit and practice, and because the family structure isn't there for the parents to MAKE them practice...

a turntable as an instrument? kind of. but mostly what a turntable does is play music performed by people who CAN play instruments.

when u say hiphop kids can't play instruments because they were too poor, u assume louis armstrong or charlie parker were rich?

i know for a fact i can find church musicians exactly your age w. exactly your economic status who can play, SERIOUSLY...

lack of money aint the reason johnny can't read... music.....

and ps... when a kid w. a bit of talent can sit at a keyboard and pick out the string lines for 50 cent, ja rule, and lil john in an afternoon, he's gotta wonder what's the point in keyboard lessons anyway?

hiphop has set the bar amazingly LOW....

disagree?