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Hip Hop (diss or defend it here so we dont have to read it elswhere)
Old 16th July 2005
  #31
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
READ MY FIRST POST

You all are avoiding my point. I'm not saying that Jazz and hip hop should be compared on the level of complexity or musicianship. I"m Saying something entirely different that everyone is avoiding. The view of hip hop as corrupting the youth and its bashing by society is the EXACT same view that people had of Jazz. As I stated the nostalgia for Jazz causes people to forget its gritty roots.


The disdain for rap/hip hop culture that people seem to have is the exact same as what society had for Jazz. Jazz was viewed as overly sexual "jungle music"

Defending/comparing the complexity of the music is pointless here becase that doesnt speak to the topic
but my point was that jazz quickly transcended it's "jungle music" roots because even its critics realized that it was a serious music language; that's why, at the same time heartland people called it "jungle music" they were having serious concerts of jazz at aeolian hall in nyc; composers of all stripes were drawn to it and schools sprang up so people could learn it; by the late 30's early 40's jazz was *no longer* thought of as jungle music or sex music and duke ellington was not considered anything other than a genius musician/composer/arranger, and was judged on those terms.

hiphop is the genre that refuses to grow up. when the number one rapper in the world has lyrics like;

"Give it to me baby, nice and slow
Climb on top, ride like you in the rodeo...
Soon as I come through the door she get to pullin on my zipper
It's like it's a race who can get undressed quicker"

it's not hard to figure out why people STILL think of it as "sex music."

we're 35 years into hip hop. very few genres of music last that long! 35 years into jazz, no one was thinking of top releases like "kind of blue" primarily in terms of "sex music..."

(tho i'd much rather have sex w. kind of blue in the background than fity cent)
Old 16th July 2005
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
[/b]


Did you not read the post from the guy who said the jazz players he knew did not respect hip hop? Is Winton Marsalis a racist, or an idiot for speaking against things he doesnt like or respect?
Yes, Wynton is an idiot. A great technician, a sectarian and the worst thing to happen to jazz in the last 25 years. You can thank Stanley Crouch. And if you won't take my word for it, ask Wayne Shorter....a guy who has contributed more to jazz than Wynton ever will.

And BTW, viz the arguments above, anyone thinks that the more indistinguishible jazz becomes from the Western "serious" music tradition the more worthwhile it gets
has a completely different view from me...and from Miles Davis ( who incidentally also didn't have much time for Wynton). It has a DIFFERENT AESTHETIC. IMO anyone who fails to respect that doesn't get it . Jazz is not some beige offshoot of white concert music, it is it's very own thing.

Personally , I don't "get" modern rock music. But I don't feel the need to attack it. It's not made for me and that's fine.

I haven't heard a hip hop record since "It takes a Nation of Millions......" that I felt I needed to buy. That's fine too. But that record is excellent by ANY standard IMO, including the one I would hold a great jazz recording to....so maybe what's lacking these days in Hip Hop is ambition.

Best

Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane

if you can't play your horn, it's pretty obvious to everyone. no one who couldn't play the horn made any money as a horn player (and yes, that includes kenny g... he CAN play...) yet how many people have been popping their necks to such and such rapper only to find out from "true heads" that this bling bling mc "can't rap."
That is so true. But are you gonna tell me you haven't heard a real good guitarist, piano, horn etc player that taught himself?

Its talent, thats why we have sucky rappers and good ones

IMO Rap is to lyrics as Jazz was to Melody(if jazz was revolutionary in that aspect from this thread it seems so...)

We have never saw a genre like Rap that has so much potential lyrically. From rhyme schemes, cadence to the actual lyrics.
Old 16th July 2005
  #34
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vari-Mu
Yes, Wynton is an idiot. A great technician, a sectarian and the worst thing to happen to jazz in the last 25 years. You can thank Stanley Crouch. And if you won't take my word for it, ask Wayne Shorter....a guy who has contributed more to jazz than Wynton ever will.

And BTW, viz the arguments above, anyone thinks that the more indistinguishible jazz becomes from the Western "serious" music tradition the more worthwhile it gets
has a completely different view from me...and from Miles Davis ( who incidentally also didn't have much time for Wynton). It has a DIFFERENT AESTHETIC. IMO anyone who fails to respect that doesn't get it . Jazz is not some beige offshoot of white concert music, it is it's very own thing.

Personally , I don't "get" modern rock music. But I don't feel the need to attack it. It's not made for me and that's fine.

I haven't heard a hip hop record since "It takes a Nation of Millions......" that I felt I needed to buy. That's fine too. But that record is excellent by ANY standard IMO, including the one I would hold a great jazz recording to....so maybe what's lacking these days in Hip Hop is ambition.

Best

Vari-Mu
hey vari-mu, do u play jazz? i guess not, since i've never met an actual jazz musician who would say, categorically, wynton is an "idiot" and that includes miles davis. nobody who ever got on a bandstand w. wynton, since he was 17 yrs old, came away thinking, "wow, that guy's an idiot..." now u might disagree w. his politics/stance, think he is arrogant, etc., but, "an idiot?" c'mon...

if wynton's an idiot, keith jarret's an idiot, too... but i'd say they are both genius musiians who don't like electronic instruments... (anathema on gearslutz, of course!!!)

now, miles davis is an interesting cat, because he experimented w. alot of different styles, including hiphop (the ill fated doo bop); but what is often overlooked is that he was an extremely well trained musician. he auditioned for juilliard and got in, and that's saying something right there. and, even tho he left juilliard, he was often checking out symphonic scores in the library, and even near the end of his life, he remained respectful of classical music, saying people were surprised when they vistited him that he always had rachmaninoff or michelangeli in the background....

miles had more disdain for ornette coleman and don cherry than he had for wynton... he said, "for ornette to pick up a trumpet and violin like that and just think he can play them with no kind of training is disrespectful toward all those people who play them well... and then to sit up and pontificate about them when he doesn't know what he's talking about is not cool, man."

i'm certainly not saying jazz isn't "its own thing" or a "beige offshoot" but the BEST jazz musicians are well schooled in all the music...
Old 16th July 2005
  #35
jordan19 
Guest
I agree, no true musician would call Wynton an idiot. The guy is brilliant, and an artist of the highest caliber. And Wynton and the guys at the jazz department at Juilliard were pretty gracious to me so I can't really say I've seen the "jerk" personality so many people talk about.

With that said, I don't share his purist views.
Old 16th July 2005
  #36
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher
That is so true. But are you gonna tell me you haven't heard a real good guitarist, piano, horn etc player that taught himself?

Its talent, thats why we have sucky rappers and good ones

IMO Rap is to lyrics as Jazz was to Melody(if jazz was revolutionary in that aspect from this thread it seems so...)

We have never saw a genre like Rap that has so much potential lyrically. From rhyme schemes, cadence to the actual lyrics.

mmm, not completely... i can't speak on guitar, but i've never heard a really, REALLY good pianist who didn't have some kind of lessons/instruction somewhere along the way, even if that means reading books on the subject by themselves...

and, the simple fact is almost all the best pianists usually start out very young...
would u really encourage a 3rd grader to practice rapping an hour a day after school?

how much *intrinsic* value is there to rapping? take all the money out of the rap game, (and it ain't called game for no reason) and how many people would really be studying rap?

piano is a discipline and a language that you learn because you're going to be able to do it for the rest of your life; i like hearing a 70 year old man who's been studying/playing piano his whole life... (or even an 80-plus year old man like dave brubeck, who i recently saw at a jazz festival...)

do u really think thousands of people are going to gather at a festival to hear krs1 rap 50 years from now?

u can listen to keith jarrett play solo piano for 2 hours, and at the end, wonder where the time went... could u listen to krs1 rap solo (w. no beats, just him rapping) for 2 hours?

music is a language that can run much deeper than the spoken word, no matter how expertly delivered, imo...
Old 16th July 2005
  #37
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Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
hey vari-mu, do u play jazz? i guess not, since i've never met an actual jazz musician who would say, categorically, wynton is an "idiot" and that includes miles davis. nobody who ever got on a bandstand w. wynton, since he was 17 yrs old, came away thinking, "wow, that guy's an idiot..." now u might disagree w. his politics/stance, think he is arrogant, etc., but, "an idiot?" c'mon...

i

i'm certainly not saying jazz isn't "its own thing" or a "beige offshoot" but the BEST jazz musicians are well schooled in all the music...
Well, maybe he is clever but his views are idiotic...which would mean that he's not ACTUALLY an idiot, he's just functionally indistinguishable from one. Miles may not have actually called him an idiot but he didn't think some of the stuff he did was very clever or respectful...check the autobiography.

If you spend enough time round jazz musicians, you'll find plenty of people willing to describe Wynton as having idiotic opinions....just not on the record......why is that? Because he has a certain amount of power within that world, and he's a sectarian.

For the individual player school may or may not be a neccessity.Which school did Charlie Parker go to? Lester Young? On the other hand Kenny G did go to school, didn't he...and you seem to like him heh

Technique is not an end in itself. It is meaningless unless you have something to communicate, and in my view, with a REALLY good player, it is the last thing you notice about him (or her). If you're forced to talk about a players technique that implies an absence of other less mundane qualities.

Cheers


Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #38
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Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
I agree, no true musician would call Wynton an idiot. The guy is brilliant, and an artist of the highest caliber. And Wynton and the guys at the jazz department at Juilliard were pretty gracious to me so I can't really say I've seen the "jerk" personality so many people talk about.

With that said, I don't share his purist views.
Well I guess I'm not a true musician then heh

He's not a JAZZ artist of the highest calibre and I defy you to say otherwise....THAT is a very select group and he ain't earned his stripes yet.

At least in reality, not PBS special-land.

Cheers

Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #39
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vari-Mu
Well, maybe he is clever but his views are idiotic...which would mean that he's not ACTUALLY an idiot, he's just functionally indistinguishable from one. Miles may not have actually called him an idiot but he didn't think some of the stuff he did was very clever or respectful...check the autobiography.

If you spend enough time round jazz musicians, you'll find plenty of people willing to describe Wynton as having idiotic opinions....just not on the record......why is that? Because he has a certain amount of power within that world, and he's a sectarian.

For the individual player school may or may not be a neccessity.Which school did Charlie Parker go to? Lester Young? On the other hand Kenny G did go to school, didn't he...and you seem to like him heh

Technique is not an end in itself. It is meaningless unless you have something to communicate, and in my view, with a REALLY good player, it is the last thing you notice about him (or her). If you're forced to talk about a players technique that implies an abscence of other less mundane qualities.

Cheers


Vari-Mu
er, uh ... yeah...
by jazz musician, you're not talking about some cat playing pseudo wes montgomery guitar at a boarders someplace, right?

because, i've spent aLOT of time w. some of the best jazz musicians in the world, and i've never heard one criticize wynton's music ability, even tho i know alot who disagree w. his stance on this or that issue.

i disagree w. keith jarrett on alot of issues, too... i think he's hyper-opinionated... but guess what? i'm smart enough not to get anywhere near a piano he's just played (and that doesn't take too much smarts...)

i just think its bad form to call someone you disagree w. "an idiot" in general, but especially when the so called idiot in question is a pulitzer prize winning composer in addition to being a master instrumentalist. have u written a longform piece u feel is as deep as "blood on the fields?" if so, i'd like to hear it.

if u think charlie parker wasn't a trained musician, that he didn't practice for hours, that he didn't understand harmony, transposition, sight reading, etc... than you're dreaming... mozart didn't go to music school either, but he knew what he was doing... (btw... i don't think i said "music school" i said "music training." i'm not a big fan of music conservatory in general...)

true, music training is no substitute for talent... but neither is technical limitation the best way to get your ideas across... the fledgling composer who thinks he discovered C-Am-F-G-C progression is proof of that; hasn't 50 years of rock and roll taught us this?
Old 16th July 2005
  #40
jordan19 
Guest
lol yeah no actually vari-mu you make a good point, and it was one that i was going to bring up as well. bepop cats...(and plenty of other jazzheads...) these guys didn't go to music school to get a degree in jazz performance lol. they sat in with other jazz cats and jammed for hours and hours learning by ear mostly.

and that's how you learn jazz really. not in the classroom. i took all the jazz theory i could possibly stand. couldn't produce a good solo over changes until i started sitting in with guys a LOT better than me. it's a kick in the ass and a humbling experience, but it's the only way to get better and truly learn.

...i do agree with the majority of what soultrane has said so far though...
Old 16th July 2005
  #41
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i agree with the previous quote from jordan

that being said i have never overheard
too much excitement about him or his playing,
more of a respectful distance or
on occassion the previously mentioned
allusion to miles'
comments in the quincy troupe/ miles
autobiography........



i heard branford sound amazing one night
years ago at carnegie hall with
sonny rollins......
branford had a small
t.v. on a stool - he was
watching the nba championships
and occasionally calling out
the scores.....
i guess with sonny rollins blowing at
your side... it almost
makes sense

sorry for the tangent

- jack
Old 16th July 2005
  #42
no ssl yet 
Guest
"but my point was that jazz quickly transcended it's "jungle music" roots because even its critics realized that it was a serious music language; that's why, at the same time heartland people called it "jungle music" they were having serious concerts of jazz at aeolian hall in nyc; composers of all stripes were drawn to it and schools sprang up so people could learn it; by the late 30's early 40's jazz was *no longer* thought of as jungle music or sex music and duke ellington was not considered anything other than a genius musician/composer/arranger, and was judged on those terms."


My point proven. You are saying jazz transcended it's "jungle music" roots. So people did see it in much the same way that people view rap today. You go on to tell me people accepted it because it was serious music..

All I compared was the view that people had of Jazz to the modern day view of rap. And you confirmed this.

This is also true for soul
RnB
and every form of black music. They were all viewed with disdain. THIS WAS MY POINT.

Now will people gather to see KRS1 in 50 years. IF someone asked you 25 years ago would we be discussing hip hop culture or rap music on an internet forum and would rap be the hottest selling genre. You wouldnt have bet on yes

I personally know that Wynton once spoke of hip hop with disdain, UNTIL he was reminded that his artform was also once viewed through the same lense.
Old 16th July 2005
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
er, uh ... yeah...
by jazz musician, you're not talking about some cat playing pseudo wes montgomery guitar at a boarders someplace, right?

because, i've spent aLOT of time w. some of the best jazz musicians in the world, and i've never heard one criticize wynton's music ability, even tho i know alot who disagree w. his stance on this or that issue.

i just think its bad form to call someone you disagree w. "an idiot" in general, but especially when the so called idiot in question is a pulitzer prize winning composer in addition to being a master instrumentalist. have u written a longform piece u feel is as deep as "blood on the fields?" if so, i'd like to hear it.

if u think charlie parker wasn't a trained musician, that he didn't practice for hours, that he didn't understand harmony, transposition, sight reading, etc... than you're dreaming... mozart didn't go to music school either, but he knew what he was doing... (btw... i don't think i said "music school" i said "music training." i'm not a big fan of music conservatory in general...)

true, music training is no substitute for talent... but neither is technical limitation the best way to get your ideas across... the fledgling composer who thinks he discovered C-Am-F-G-C progression is proof of that; hasn't 50 years of rock and roll taught us this?

Did I criticise his musical ability? Did I not describe him as a superb techician? Nonetheless his views on the jazz aesthetic are idiotic and AHISTORICAL.

I'm in Europe and we don't have Borders over here...which name, btw, does not include an "a". I presume you're better at spelling chords. heh

Not only has Wynton got a Pulitzer for composition he's also got several Grammys...in my view an equally definitive and worthwhile judgement on his value as a practitioner of an IMPROVISATIONAL artform.

Who praised technical limitation? Not me. What I said was that technique is neccessary but not sufficient. Appropriate technique also depends on what it is that you're trying to express....and that's an individual thing. Also it should be noted that limitations can also be turned to creative/ expressive advantage. Ever hear of a thing called the Blues?

Cheers


Vari-Mu

P.S: If Kenny G can really play why is his tone so bad?
Old 16th July 2005
  #44
no ssl yet 
Guest
Again

"how much *intrinsic* value is there to rapping? take all the money out of the rap game, (and it ain't called game for no reason) and how many people would really be studying rap?"


I've been rapping since long before there was money being made at it like there is today. Rapping is something that I'd be doing if Iwas making no money at it.


"do u really think thousands of people are going to gather at a festival to hear krs1 rap 50 years from now?
u can listen to keith jarrett play solo piano for 2 hours, and at the end, wonder where the time went... could u listen to krs1 rap solo (w. no beats, just him rapping) for 2 hours?"

I could listen to KRS spit for hours at a time YES I could


Would any of you be willing to say West indian/African music is not music? Because this is where the roots of RAP come from. Rap has been with mankind long before rap records LOL
Old 16th July 2005
  #45
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Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
lol yeah no actually vari-mu you make a good point, and it was one that i was going to bring up as well. bepop cats...(and plenty of other jazzheads...) these guys didn't go to music school to get a degree in jazz performance lol. they sat in with other jazz cats and jammed for hours and hours learning by ear mostly.

and that's how you learn jazz really. not in the classroom. i took all the jazz theory i could possibly stand. couldn't produce a good solo over changes until i started sitting in with guys a LOT better than me. it's a kick in the ass and a humbling experience, but it's the only way to get better and truly learn.

...i do agree with the majority of what soultrane has said so far though...
This post I wholeheartedly agree with. I also think anything you can get your hands on that will help you when you're there at the sharp end is worth checking. And I think useful info can come from all sorts of places.

Maybe even Hip Hop


heh

Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #46
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vari-Mu
Did I criticise his musical ability? Did I not describe him as a superb techician? Nonetheless his views on the jazz aesthetic are idiotic and AHISTORICAL.

I'm in Europe and we don't have Borders over here...which name, btw, does not include an "a". I presume you're better at spelling chords. heh

Not only has Wynton got a Pulitzer for composition he's also got several Grammys...in my view an equally definitive and worthwhile judgement on his worth as a practitioner of an IMPROVISATIONAL artform.

Who praised technical limitation? Not me. What I said was that technique is neccessary but not sufficient. Appropriate technique also depends on what it is that you're trying to express....and that's an individual thing. Also it should be noted that limitations can also be turned to creative/ expressive advantage. Ever hear of a thing called the Blues?

Cheers


Vari-Mu

P.S: If Kenny G can really play why is his tone so bad?
right... well, let me go thru my collection and get rid of all the grammy winners in there...

u said wynton was the worst thing to happen to jazz in the last 25 years... alot of people think he's the *only* thing that's happend to jazz in the last 25 years.

why are u so dogmatic? how is your stance different than crouch's, at least in the intolerance of it? why not, "wynton's a great talent but i disagree with him on abc..." and then discuss... why "wynton's an idiot?" i know it's the internet and all, but... c'mon...

as 4 kenny g... i don't really like his music and don't know why u keep mentioning him... but, i wonder if u can sightread the charts he played w. jeff lorber fusion way back in the day....

u sound so bitter and dismissive... if all these guys suk so bad, roll out your credits list, please... if you've made all this hot music let me know, seeing as i need to go to borders (w.out the "a") to fill out my grammy-free collection.
Old 16th July 2005
  #47
Here for the gear
 
Phil Gates's Avatar
 

Just My Opinion,

I Think Many People Forget The Essence Of True Hip Hop...

My Opinion Is That The REAL Definition Of Hip Hop Is SKILLS...

Meaning That If You Were Not Good You CANNOT Get In The Circle...

If You Could Not DJ, Dance, Spit, Or Write (Graf)... You Can't Hang With Us...

The Fact That The Industry Took Over F*c*ed Everything Up, Because When I Came Up, People Got Killed Over Biting... Now We Listen To A&R's And Ask Opinions About How We Should Sound... To Sell Units, C'mon Now...

I Am Not Going To Argue That ALOT Of Hip Hop Now'a'days IS BULLSh*t...

But I Guess We Gotta Take The Good With The Bad...

Plus There Are Not Too Many People Who Will Understand How It Began Because They Were Not Part Of Why It Is Here Today...

I Am A 23 year Veteran When It Comes To Hip Hop As I Started With One Of The First Breakin Crews In Chicago Dancing Alongside Legends Of Whom NOONE Will Ever KNOW Beacause These Were The REAL Street Legends...

These People NEVER Knew(Including Me) We Could EVER Make $$$ Doing What We Do... The Emcee's, DJ's ,Breakers, Writers At The Park Jams In The Bronx...170th& Morris... Union Square, The Tunnel, Street Patrol, MopTops, Incredible Breakers(The ORIGINAL BBOYS...) We NEVER Could've Imagined What It Has Become...

Unfortunately For Many Skilled People... GARBAGE Now Tells Us What WE Should Sound Like... How DARE THEY... What $$$ Can do... It Can Allow One Person To Go To War With Countries, I Guess, So WHY Couldn't It Buy A Culture... Those [email protected]@rds...

Now The Example Of Hip Hop Production Is Puffy... So I Understand Where Some Might Say It Is Not Music... But IMHO... They Are Right. THAT Is Not Music... THAT IS BUSINESS. If You Want To Say It Is Not Music Then They Need More Education On TRUE HIP HOP Producers Who Took Sampling To Another LEVEL( AND Although He Is An Alright Producer, I Am Not Speaking Of Kanye And The Such) Pete Rock, Premier, Large Professor, Dug Inf, No ID, Etc. AND REMEMBER... That REAL HIP HOP , The ROOTS OF HIP HOP Was A Bunch Of Kids In The Hood Who Could Not Afford The Fancy Grand Pianos, The Horn Lessons And Such, So We Made Due With What We HAD...

As I Siad Before HIP HOP IS TALENT... And One Of Our Best Attributes When It Came To Our Talents Was Dealing The Cards We Are Dealt.

And If You Think That We Cannot Play An Instrument... MANY Can And As Far As I Am Concerned, The Turntable AND The Sampler, Can EASILY Be Considered Instruments If Used PROPERLY... It Is Almost 2006... We Are Still Growing... Every Instrument Started Somewhere, And 20 Some YEARS In HIP HOP, Myself...

Even I HAVE To Remember, I Am FIFTH Generation...

We Need Old School Rules Back...

If You Can't Hang... F*ck Off Or Get Your @ss Kicked... Period.
Cause I Know You Don't Want To Battle. Just Playin(Kind Of.)

MUSIC IN GENERAL IS EXPRESSION AND ART... A.K.A. OPINION...

No Need To Insult(Cause That Gets People Hurt One Way Or The Other...)

Love And Respect To All GSLUTZ Out There And If Anyone Was Insulted By Anything I've Stated... GROW UP. Live Life.
Old 16th July 2005
  #48
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I dislike hiphop.
It to my ears is simplicistic, undemanding and monotonous.
And I have never spent a second wondering about the skin colour of the guys who started this musical anemia by slicing rhythm parts out of existing cassettes. Nor have I ever associated any jungle with it.
Most people I see with that sound are no blacks or white people anyway.

It seems just that the sound is poor music, stagnation since decades and in my believe certainly of no progress for cultural education in the sense of cognitive abilities of consumers.

The few pieces that I have heard that weren´t completely monotonous or at times even well made were developing / altering in rhythm ( in fact I only consider rhythm when it moves and alters. Just repeating number of beats ain´t musical rhythm to me ) and melody. They were merging with pop, rock or sometimes with oriental motives. Whatever diversity it was it made those pieces become between digestable to good.

But I can make it without someone talking over music lines. I didn´t like Brecht songs for the very same reason. Used to think like "either read a poem or sing a song, but both at once has no swing".

BTW, swing ... Ever observed how people dance to hihop and techno?
Actually it is not like dancing. It´s stepping from one foot to the other if the feet are moved at all while what is moved are arms and hands.

That shows the lack of bodily inspiring musicality.
When you dance to what I would consider advanced music like rock, salsa, flamenco, tango, polka whatever ... the music moves you entirely. When it is pulling it moves your whole body and not only that, but it makes you moving variably throghout the songs. That´s what I consider systematical variety.
The opposite of a chuggling diesel engine.

Someone said his old father liked jazz ever since, but could never connect to rap and I believe that is because he got a musical antenna and wouldn´t spend a thought about who and why, but about what.

Now, you can call me racists as a lame escape, but it can´t touch, first because it being a failed argument to defend anything concerning musical quality, secondly because I know halfways what I am and that´s certainly not of syncretical thinking structure.

I think hihop and techno will vastly fade out and I strongly hope that it will be replaced by handmade music again.

The fact that it sells strongly to me appears to be no predicat, but rather a sad indicator about demand on modern cultural products in conjunction with indicators like the Pisa study.

Monotony = little diversification = little differentiation
Diversity = differentiation

Ruphus
Old 16th July 2005
  #49
Gear Maniac
 
Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Heeeeeey....hang on a minute. I'm saying that you should try and keep an open mind , that there are "many rooms in my father's house" and that's being bitter and dogmatic?

Actually I'm having fun heh

You're right it IS the internet, and even Pulitzer prizewinners are subject to criticism when they take unreasonably narrowminded positions that are at variance with historical fact.

How would you feel with a record collection that ONLY included Grammy winners?

As for who I am why should I tell you?

Incentivise me. heh

Cheers,

Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
right... well, let me go thru my collection and get rid of all the grammy winners in there...

u said wynton was the worst thing to happen to jazz in the last 25 years... alot of people think he's the *only* thing that's happend to jazz in the last 25 years.
You're absolutely right, and that's a problem.

Vari-Mu
Old 16th July 2005
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet

I've been rapping since long before there was money being made at it like there is today. Rapping is something that I'd be doing if Iwas making no money at it.

I could listen to KRS spit for hours at a time YES I could

Would any of you be willing to say West indian/African music is not music? Because this is where the roots of RAP come from. Rap has been with mankind long before rap records LOL
dam, how old are u? because rappers have been turning profits for close to 30 years now!!! rap has been a big money maker from way back. run dmc gave russell simmons the seeds to plant in the phat farm...
Old 16th July 2005
  #52
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
do u really think thousands of people are going to gather at a festival to hear krs1 rap 50 years from now?

.
I would.....
Old 16th July 2005
  #53
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
"but my point was that jazz quickly transcended it's "jungle music" roots because even its critics realized that it was a serious music language; that's why, at the same time heartland people called it "jungle music" they were having serious concerts of jazz at aeolian hall in nyc; composers of all stripes were drawn to it and schools sprang up so people could learn it; by the late 30's early 40's jazz was *no longer* thought of as jungle music or sex music and duke ellington was not considered anything other than a genius musician/composer/arranger, and was judged on those terms."


My point proven. You are saying jazz transcended it's "jungle music" roots. So people did see it in much the same way that people view rap today. You go on to tell me people accepted it because it was serious music..

All I compared was the view that people had of Jazz to the modern day view of rap. And you confirmed this.

This is also true for soul
RnB
and every form of black music. They were all viewed with disdain. THIS WAS MY POINT.

Now will people gather to see KRS1 in 50 years. IF someone asked you 25 years ago would we be discussing hip hop culture or rap music on an internet forum and would rap be the hottest selling genre. You wouldnt have bet on yes

I personally know that Wynton once spoke of hip hop with disdain, UNTIL he was reminded that his artform was also once viewed through the same lense.

i get your point but you're not getting my point. my point is jazz may have started out with a "jungle music" "sex music" stigma but it didn't take long (less than 10 years) for serious musicians to get excited about it and start learning it, working with it etc... it lost the "jungle music" and was viewed as a serious art form.

hiphop is 30 some years old and we're still having the discussion "is it really music?" no one, in say, 1955, could listen to jazz and ask "is it really music" because everyone knew it was, even if they didn't like it.

now, when u say that because hiphop has lasted alot longer than most thought it would therefore krs1 will be playing festivals when he's got no teeth left to spit thru, i disagree...

i believe the real reason hiphop has stayed around for so long is because a) it is the cheapest form of music to produce and b) people buy it.

to make a hiphop record in its rawest form, all u need is an sm57, 1 or 2 turntables and 8 tracks or less of audio.

hip hop has led the way in the diy production revolution, and for that, everyone owes bigtime...

BUT, if you were a label head, and u knew that record "a" could be made w. zero production cost, and record "b" required renting a studio, engineer, session players, producers, etc. which way would u go?

the fact that hiphop is still so popular doesn't necessarily mean it's great music... but it's great business
Old 16th July 2005
  #54
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
ps 5 essential hiphop cd's

1) the roots, "things fall apart"
2) mos def "black on both sides"
3) jurassic 5 "ep"
4) roots manuva "run come save me"
5) beastie boys "paul's boutique"
Old 16th July 2005
  #55
no ssl yet 
Guest
Man stop hating

OK HIP HOP AINT MUSIC LOL and it only sells because it's cheap to produce LOL
IT cant be danced to like other music LOL

And IT's been making money like it does now forever? Bull****. IN '87 there was not as much money to be made in rap believe me


COuld it simply be that it comes from a culture that you all dont understand???

It is why people feel the need to insult it that I find peculiar. I dont insult other people's music. Why do so many feel the need to insult mine. I'm not saying it has anything to do with racism. I'm saying that people have eletist complexes. Why is there a need to prove that rap is simpler than any other form of music.

JUST DONT LISTEN TO IT.

But of course while that is possible that is not the problem. THe problem is that SOOOOO many others listen to it. All I have left to say on the subject is last year I spit one verse (16bars) on an album that sold over a million copies. I payed for my protools HD system/PRe Amps/Compressors with the money I earned on those 16bars. I dont care if you guys hate/love Hip Hop/rap. As far as I'm concerned there is no reason to read this thread anymore. I've participated in every aspect of hip hop culture from day one except for grafitti. It will do those of us who like rap music no good to try to explain/defend our views

IT IS SIMPLY a culture that some of you dont understand. You wouldnt listen to KRS rhyme for 2 hours because most of you guys dont know a good rhyme from a bad one. Thats fine. I would. KRS has been one of my favorite MCs since BDP. (But only some of us woud even know how long that has been)

But HONESTLY
The insults wouldnt be coming if we werent making money. And we wouldnt be making money if people werent buying. While I have musical training and I come from a musical background. I dont have an eletist supremacy complex. I like what I like and I respect the preferences of others.

I'd appreciated if you guys that dont understand my preference would do the same.

I dont think its necessary to explain that you all are not racist or ask if a black man doesnt like hip hop does it make him a racist. Racism is not at question here. I only brought up the point of race in saying that ALL OF BLACK MUSIC was originally viewed as jungle music, corrupting the youth, and overtly sexual.

Of course one could easily point to todays rap records and argue on the overtly sexual part. BUT I could counter and say that like anything else you have to look at things in the context of the time of its existence. WE LIVE IN A MORE overtly sexual world.

Also, since when is music measured by how many tracks it would take to produce it???
LOL and since I just finished looking over my accounts and I know what I paid to SESSION MUSICIANS last year I guess I should feel foolish, Hell all I should have needed was a few 57s, some turn tables, and an 8 track LOL you guys kill me sometimes

I will no longer point out that one side of rap is good and commercial rap is minimalist. IT IS ALL RAP and it all fits into hip hop culture. I'm glad it sells and I'm hoping it continues to sell.

LOL StOP HATING
Old 16th July 2005
  #56
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
ps 5 essential hiphop cd's

1) the roots, "things fall apart"
2) mos def "black on both sides"
3) jurassic 5 "ep"
4) roots manuva "run come save me"
5) beastie boys "paul's boutique"
i dunno.... outkasts aquemeni was one of the most over looked albums. they havent topped it yet although only in publicity.

roots live BLOWS their studio stuff AWAY.
Old 16th July 2005
  #57
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
And IT's been making money like it does now forever? Bull****. IN '87 there was not as much money to be made in rap believe me

LOL and since I just finished looking over my accounts and I know what I paid to SESSION MUSICIANS last year I guess I should feel foolish, Hell all I should have needed was a few 57s, some turn tables, and an 8 track LOL you guys kill me sometimes

I will no longer point out that one side of rap is good and commercial rap is minimalist. IT IS ALL RAP and it all fits into hip hop culture. I'm glad it sells and I'm hoping it continues to sell.

LOL StOP HATING
b4 complaining that people who don't feel hip hop is be all and end all simply "don't understand it" check your history... "my adidas" and "walk this way" were big hits in 1986... so *some* people were making big money from rap way back when. if you'd have gotten a lyric credit on that record, you'd have an ssl by now!!!

and are u denying the fact that many many many many hip hop tracks have been made w/o session players? are u denying the fact that it's cheaper to produce the average hip hop session then it was to make "what's goin' on?" or a duke ellington record?

glad you're gettin' paid tho... hip hop lives!!! david matthews (the arranger for james brown, not the singer) made more money being sampled by biggie smalls then he did in his whole career working for james brown...

as far as music goes, it means what, exactly? because people buy it, this means what? people buy big macs buy the billions, too.., are they great burgers because so many people slam 'em down?

50 Cent has sold more albums than charlie parker, art tatum, and ornette coleman combined... should we feel good about that?
Old 16th July 2005
  #58
Lives for gear
 
mizzle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
didn't mean to say "anti-intellectual" in sociological or political terms, but in purely musical terms. rhyming isn't really the same as playing an instrument. edgar allen poe could rhyme, too, but as far as i know, he wasn't a musician.
)
Voice is an instrument. Plain and simple. In hip hop the voice becomes a drum. The roots of this thinking can be traced directly back to West Africa where the talking drum is ubiquitous. Is a drum not an instrument because it does not play a "melody"? Besides, people like Talib Kweli rhyme w/ more rhythm than most musicians I've ever met; including jazz musicians. Instead of melodies rappers are concentrating on words (i.e. content, message). I think in this case, change is good.
Mizzle
Old 16th July 2005
  #59
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mizzle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
well, imo as a student of the music, this comparison only goes so far. first, jazz was, from practically the outset, viewed as a highly technical and original extension of the western musical tradition inherited from the european greats.

brahms, for example, was said to be enthralled w. the prejazz syncopations of the gottschalk era.

by 1924, there was already a classical/jazz masterpiece from a jewish composer (george gershwin); this piece remains extremely popular even to this day. and in the 30's duke ellington, who was the most glamorous and eloquent man on the scene, was highly praised for his orchestrations and harmonies, not just his rhythms.

further, look at the history of jazz. the first jazz recording was 1917 (by an all-white group, btw); within 30 years, gillespie, parker, powell, etc. (i.e. the beboppers) changed the music radically, but how? through expanding the tonal pallette to include the harmonies used by western composers such as debussy, ravel, and stravinsky, and infusing it with swing and improvisation, the hallmarks of jazz.

jazz had very original composers that could "speak" without saying anything. monk is a prime example. jazz had virtuoso musicians who mastered western instruments; bernstein, toscannini, horowitz and rubinstein were regulars on 52nd street where art tatum was holding forth nightly.

hip hop, really, has nothing like that. by 1943 (26 years after the first hip hop recording) duke ellington premiered "black brown and beige; a tone parallel to the history of the negro in america" at carnegie hall, w. luminaries such as stokowski, eleanor roosevelt, and marian anderson in attendance.

if you place the first hip hop recordings in the late 70's, that means we're already 35 years into it; does anyone forsee a longform concert piece in hip hop composed by, say, dj premier or prince paul, held at carnegie hall and attended by john elliot gardner, hillary clinton, and leontyne price?

hip hop and jazz share only the most superficial of comparisons; a hip hopper who loops a ron carter sample or an art blakey riff may boast that he's contributing to and extending the proud history of african american music, but ask a true jazz musician what he thinks a live music show w. an mc and a dat machine have done to black music. (but don't ask the one who's getting the royalties from the sample... heh heh)

true, jazz musicians encountered racism and were not understood by middle american society. BUT, jazz was not anti-intellectual like hip hop is. listen to an interview w. duke ellington; he sounds like a college professor even though he never went beyond high school. compare him, and his knowledge of music history, and his acumen at theory, harmony, etc., w. whoever you want from the hip hop era... then tell me that jazz was grandpa's hiphop...
Times have changed my friend. A highly technical musical language is not going to communicate with too many people these days. Why then are you condemning the comparison then using the comparison to prove hip hop's inferiority in the same breath? If the comparison is not valid, how then do you prove your point?
Placing hip hop solely within the context of jazz is just as unfair as placing jazz solely within the context of western classical music. Obviously the former in both equasions will fall short of the latter because they are not the latter.

I for one, am more concerned with jazz musicians of today destroying jazz than hip hop artists. After jazz became absorbed by academia it seems that the majority of jazz musicians can't figure out how to play w/o the music being ridiculously self-referential. Most venues I've been to can't seem to break from '40's-'60's aesthetics. Where the hell are the guys w/ laptops, drum machines and turntables? Oh, right they're over at another club playing current music. When the electic guitar was invented you're damn sure someone showed up at jazz club w/ one. When the Hammond organ was invented somebody hauled that thing on down to the jam session. When the synthesizer and the Rhodes were invented guys showed up w/ that **** too. What the hell happened?
Why are there so many kids graduating from music schools who can play a hundred be-bop songs by heart but can't connect w/ anybody but other jazz students? It just seems like most jazz musicians are becoming more technically proficient versions of Lee Morgan, Wayne Shorter, or Bill Evans etc., etc.. What's the point? Even artists like Dave Douglas (while having some worthwhile contributions) and Don Byron seem to succumb to repeating verbatim an expression that was invented 40-60 years ago (the former w/ the Infinite and the latter w/ Bug Music). Academia seems to be spurring jazz into repetition rather than invention. So much for being "intellectual".

Speaking of "intellectual", try listening to interviews with Miles Davis or Thelonius Monk. One sounding like a thug and the other mumbling like a psycotic bum. Duke Ellington is not the only person to represent jazz.


Mizzle
Old 16th July 2005
  #60
In the late 80's - early 90's I was chummy with Jalal Nedurin of the 70's spoken word band - Last Poets ... he referred to what he did as "Spoetry" - spoken word poetry and was interesting to hang out with. I had cable TV and he came over with a girlfriend once for dinner and a Tyson fight. We would keep in touch on the phone and were maybe going to work together sometime (me as engineer / producer)

He swore his band were THE grandfathers of rap. I don't dispute it.

http://www.mp3.com/the-last-poets/ar...biography.html

He was sampled on some stuff without his permission and at his request & I hooked him up with a lawyer, we lost touch but years later I ran into him in Berlin, Germany, he said, "Jules man, that lawyer you hooked me up with recovered $6,000 for me from that sampling case!" - (I said GREAT!) he went on "but his bill was $7,000"

His style was an interesting socio-political commentary with a sprinkling of conspiracy theory, spoken over a beatnik jazz soundtrack...

He was involved in helping the younger generation of artists come through but I don't think the music biz was paying him the rewards he was due for his efforts.. tutt

I am proud to have known him.
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