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Old 22nd August 2007
  #31
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doorknocker's Avatar
I think the issues mentioned aren't exclusive to Hip-Hop.

A few thoughts:

-Music always is a mirror of the times we live in and if you worry about technology dominating audio production then you should also reflect on the fact that technology is everywhere (like the fact that we communicate on the internet here). We live in an age where we are simply dominated by certain technical breakthroughs, partly because of the novelty of it. I guess a lot of these developement like DAWs, non-linear editing, samples, etc are slowly being taken for granted now. This is positive in the sense that we might refrain from over-using them and because they often became fads we also begin to see (and especially HEAR) that a lot of the trendy productions from a few years back suddendly start to sound very dated. Again, it happened before, especially in the 80ies with Synths, gated Reverb, questionable hairdos, etc....

- If you worry about thugs running record labels then you should also reflect on the fact that thugs are currently running the most powerful country in the world.

- The 'public at large' might be uncritical and borderline-stupid sometimes but they're not THAT stupid. Like it happened before in the 80ies, people are simply stopping to buy music because most major label stuff sucks so badly. Blaming downloads is a cop-out.

- Every style has a golden age and will diminish commercially at some point. Example: Prince is the ultimate 80ies artist to me and he was able to take the 'spirit' of the times and create some great music. While he still might sell out concerts andbe remembered for certain tunes, it's clear to me that he's nor relevant anymore to the extent that you need for world-wide impact, meaning that this kind of success is about much more than 'only' the music. This is the reason why 'revival' trends always feel so stale.
Whether it's 60ies Rock/Pop or Blue-Note-style Jazz, the modern attempts to recreate that sound might be msuically sound but they fail because they are so out of step with society's realities today.

Ultimately, I just dig good music no matter how relevant or trendy it is but I guess we're talking success and sales here.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asylumdigital View Post
Why will you need to "buy" a ringtone when most phones now & all phones in the very near future will play mp3's.
because it doesn't matter if it's midi or mp3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asylumdigital View Post
The ringtone industry will be dead very, very soon. Its overpriced anyway---all these subscription rates---WTF???
I've heard the same talk about the CD in the 80s and the ringtone market in Europe, just 5 years ago. I had "major label super-executives" calling me crazy back then for saying that this will be a huge market.

hey, the mp3 was supposed to die after 2-3 years. heh
Old 22nd August 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
What effect will that have on album sales?
the same effect SACD had on the market. a couple of audiophile releases and some Beatles remasters. :D

the only step left for the music industry is surround sound.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #34
Be more shocking? To sell more records?

There is no clear path forward in that article.

Is Rap suffering a slump like Country music suffered, boom time then went quiet?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
because it doesn't matter if it's midi or mp3.



I've heard the same talk about the CD in the 80s and the ringtone market in Europe, just 5 years ago. I had "major label super-executives" calling me crazy back then for saying that this will be a huge market.

hey, the mp3 was supposed to die after 2-3 years. heh
When CDs came in the 80s were u able to make your own?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #36
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
When CDs came in the 80s were u able to make your own?

Couldnt make your own anything when it was first introduced, tapes, cds, dvd's...

And ringtones and mp3 are different files, I cant play my purchased music as a ringtone, it has be a ringtone...hell they're even smart enough to make that 30 second recorder unavailable to play anything as a ringtone, trust me, if they're gonna make a dollar, people are gonna try and figure out how to not pay, just like that industry will figure out ways where you dont have a choice, I think thats gone on forever...
Old 22nd August 2007
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex View Post
Couldnt make your own anything when it was first introduced, tapes, cds, dvd's...

And ringtones and mp3 are different files, I cant play my purchased music as a ringtone, it has be a ringtone...hell they're even smart enough to make that 30 second recorder unavailable to play anything as a ringtone, trust me, if they're gonna make a dollar, people are gonna try and figure out how to not pay, just like that industry will figure out ways where you dont have a choice, I think thats gone on forever...
Are you really thinking here?

IF when your phone rings it plays a part of your MP3 file, what's the difference between that and a ring tone? YOU can't play purchased music as a ringtone. But are you saying it can't be done? And how long do you think it will take for that to be a feature on every phone released? In a year every phone released will probably be an MP3 player.

IF it plays that Mp3 when the phone rings is that NOT a ring tone?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
I want to follow up with the country music point.

Country music is obviously churned out for the masses. The unfortunate thing is that this has infested rock music and now rap and R&B more then ever before. So all the major genres of music that we used to love are formulaic and boring.

It all started with pop..take a hot "star" and make them look like an artist. The problem is that now kids are very used to well written songs and song structure. All they hear are songs written by pros if they listen to the radio. anything that is not fitting that format is not going to get major exposure.

So that means that the organic aspect of music that I believe is more important then anything is now gone. That aspect is what made people love rap so much before..it was raw and it had a vibe...and there were different variations...we had De La Soul, NWA, 2 Live Crew, Black Sheep..those were 4 of my favorites when I was young and they all sounded COMPLETELY different.


The sterilization of music in general is a major issue. R&B is completely unlistenable to me now. At least back in the day, the songs written by pro songwriters were amazing and had a vibe..I loved Troop for example..amazing songs (now being butchered by horrible covers)..the whole "new jack swing" feel was awesome...if New Jack Swing was hot now..that would be ALL YOU WOULD HEAR...no variation..that is the sad part.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #39
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Agzilla's Avatar
 

...

My ringtone is an mp3 of Public Enemy - Show em watchu got!

Or ANY other mp3 i stick on there... never gonna buy a ringtone in my life!


Hope that helps....

Peace.

Zz.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

Ok if ur telling me sprint is the only cellphone co. that has seperate formats for ringtones and music and Im being screwed... I already hate sprint
Old 22nd August 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex View Post
Ok if ur telling me sprint is the only cellphone co. that has seperate formats for ringtones and music and Im being screwed... I already hate sprint
Don't worry Sprint'll come around by next year.

At least you can get Navigation. Tmobile doesn't offer it (Yet) as far as i know.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #42
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fontenele's Avatar
 

there it comes again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco View Post
In ancient Roman times, did people point the finger at those attending the Gladiator shows?
there it comes again
Old 22nd August 2007
  #43
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asylumdigital's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PettyCash View Post
Here are good questions we can all ask ourselves.....
Once the war between HD-DVD and Bluray is over, and the new higher format is set in, and the compact disc is finally bumped aside in favour of DVD-Audio, What effect will that have on album sales?


Uhhhh none, because it IS over. DVDaudio is dead. Was never alive, really...
Bluray is winning (especially now that certain major movie studios have said that they will no longer manufacture that format). Microsoft just lowered the price of the HDDVD add-on to try to gain traction, but the studio announcements were almost simultanious.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #44
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asylumdigital's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
because it doesn't matter if it's midi or mp3.

I've heard the same talk about the CD in the 80s and the ringtone market in Europe, just 5 years ago. I had "major label super-executives" calling me crazy back then for saying that this will be a huge market.

hey, the mp3 was supposed to die after 2-3 years. heh

Sure, it was a huge market, but now it is being surpassed by currently available technology. Want to keep drinking the kool-aid, go right ahead...
Old 22nd August 2007
  #45
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Ken Lewis's Avatar
This is some of what i take from the Time Magazine article.

Music Exec's are beginning to wake up to the fact that substance is important again.

Every music exec passed on signing Kanye West except Dame Dash. The first time i sat in a room with Kanye long before his record deal, the boy wouldnt shut up. He was rhyming nonstop just for the hell of it, and alot of those ideas ended up on The College Dropout. but i sat there and said to myself "this dude is gonna sell a million records because he talks about things nobody else talks about in a way that nobody is saying it". Now if i can sit there and say that to myself, why couldnt an A&R person hear it??? And look who Kanye surrounds himself with, Common, Talib Kwali, Lupe Fiasco. People who are saying something. And Kanye's label, GOOD, had 28 Grammy nominations in 2006.

Mark my words, eventually, and probably sooner than later, the music industry is going stop recording full albums with alot of artists and only do singles when they know they have a song they can sell. The artist will release a single, or maybe a 4 song EP on itunes and not even put it in stores. There will always be artists who can deliver a whole album, but i think there will be a new industry model in the future that is a singles model without reliance on brick and mortar stores. When this happens, we're all ****ed because all of the super producers will get all of the gigs and there will be no scraps.

The industry will make up for the loss of CD revenue by taking from the artist. Its already happening. Rarely is a record deal signed nowadays that the label doesnt take a piece of publishing, merchandising, and touring. This NEVER used to happen, and now its the norm. So, if the label can keep the artist perpetually in the spotlight, 1 song at a time, and the artist can tour, all revenue streams are bringing the label income.

Old 22nd August 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asylumdigital View Post
Sure, it was a huge market, but now it is being surpassed by currently available technology.
Want to keep drinking the kool-aid, go right ahead...
that's what happens every couple of years, so what exactly is your point?
everyone can predict the past after it happened.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #47
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cynic one's Avatar
 

i've been able to play mp3s on my phone as a ringtone for like 3+ years now. bigup the treo..............
Old 22nd August 2007
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
The industry will make up for the loss of CD revenue by taking from the artist. Its already happening. Rarely is a record deal signed nowadays that the label doesnt take a piece of publishing, merchandising, and touring. This NEVER used to happen, and now its the norm. So, if the label can keep the artist perpetually in the spotlight, 1 song at a time, and the artist can tour, all revenue streams are bringing the label income.

after their Napster debacle, BMG started to do that with new signings (before they fused with Sony).

the US market will adjust to the European, albums will go, singles and EPs will be the new way to attract the audience to buy product (whatever form it comes in) and to pay for concerts and the merchandise.

the challenge for those who want to make money and be independent is to find their niche and their audience on the internet.
there's no other way out.

the value of the "superproducers" will go down dramatically, because independent (online) labels will be able to work with literally any producer in the world.
there's talent in China, Australia or Brazil, not only US.
that has been the case for the last decade, but the channels in which the artists/labels receive their product changed only recently.

people like yourself will face a bigger competition, yes, but in the end you will make more money, independently and be able to manage your own, independent clientel.

so while the independents sell many records these days and have a fair share of the market, they will be a real competition to the majors, when it comes to the Top10 "pop" artists (this is where obviously the majors still dominate: CC, MTV, etc...) in 4-5 years.

you also have to understand that iTunes is the only "online major" distribution so far and the record companies are still too big to move fast.
and they are too greedy. the major labels committed suicide by not following the MP3 trend from the beginning. what we face now is just a delay of their decay.

"exponential growth" is the keyword and since iTunes seems to work (iPod saved Apple's ass), there will be more and more who will follow into their steps and place themselves on the market.

and you are right. as far as touring goes, you can release an EP (4-5 tracks) every other year and tour. then you drop a single, start to tour, drop another EP, etc...
that way you don't have to overflow the market with albums full of fillers and concentrate more on your live shows.

the internet is save for the next ten years and you are free to use it for your own profit/promotion. they will let it die out slowly afterwards and switch to a faster infrastructure, but for the next couple of years, it's still the Wild West for those who make music not only for the money involved.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusColeman View Post
that's what happens every couple of years, so what exactly is your point?
everyone can predict the past after it happened.
I got 10 stacks that says Big Country Can'theh
Old 23rd August 2007
  #50
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
This is some of what i take from the Time Magazine article.

Music Exec's are beginning to wake up to the fact that substance is important again.

Every music exec passed on signing Kanye West except Dame Dash. The first time i sat in a room with Kanye long before his record deal, the boy wouldnt shut up. He was rhyming nonstop just for the hell of it, and alot of those ideas ended up on The College Dropout. but i sat there and said to myself "this dude is gonna sell a million records because he talks about things nobody else talks about in a way that nobody is saying it". Now if i can sit there and say that to myself, why couldnt an A&R person hear it??? And look who Kanye surrounds himself with, Common, Talib Kwali, Lupe Fiasco. People who are saying something. And Kanye's label, GOOD, had 28 Grammy nominations in 2006.

Mark my words, eventually, and probably sooner than later, the music industry is going stop recording full albums with alot of artists and only do singles when they know they have a song they can sell. The artist will release a single, or maybe a 4 song EP on itunes and not even put it in stores. There will always be artists who can deliver a whole album, but i think there will be a new industry model in the future that is a singles model without reliance on brick and mortar stores. When this happens, we're all ****ed because all of the super producers will get all of the gigs and there will be no scraps.

The industry will make up for the loss of CD revenue by taking from the artist. Its already happening. Rarely is a record deal signed nowadays that the label doesnt take a piece of publishing, merchandising, and touring. This NEVER used to happen, and now its the norm. So, if the label can keep the artist perpetually in the spotlight, 1 song at a time, and the artist can tour, all revenue streams are bringing the label income.


i have the new business model all worked out, but nobody wants to listen to me

for those instances where the SONG is the star of the show, (One hit wonders) then the SONGWRITER will make out like a bandit. And these days, and in the future, it shouldn't take more then one person to completely write and produce a full song. (All my songs are 100%)

Money will be made through ASCAP, for these songs, and NOT through record sales. And thats FINE with me. If you own 100%, then even if your song is only a hit at radio, and sells hardly any records, you STILL MAKE OUT GREAT

For those that develop a tru ARTIST who can sell a PRODUCT. THATS when the PRODUCERS will make out.

Labels need to see the difference between instances where the song NEEDS an artist, and when an artist NEEDS a SONG. Cuz one sells records, and the other one dont.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #51
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Ken Lewis's Avatar
Marcus,

I dont think independents, consistently, will ever compete with the majors for sales and airplay. There always have and will be indie artists who can break out and achieve that success, but almost always when you see an "indie" artist high on the charts, theres a major behind the scenes somewhere helping make it happen.

The biggest problems indies face even with the internet is promotion, and promoting a hit single costs big bucks, getting on top 40 radio costs big bucks, staying there costs big bucks, and none of that will change any time soon.

but i do think that a very healthy amount of very good music starts on indie labels, and at some point, a major steps in to put marketing muscle behind it. Consistently a majority of the Grammy Best new artists are from "indie" (but not really indie) labels, which at least goes to prove the point that the majors miss the creative boat far too often and rely on indie label partnerships for content.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #52
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Ken and Filter please hang around there's some points I'd like to make with you guys but it will take me a min to type them.

EDIT :

And Cynic too since I see you're here.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #53
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I think the decline of music and it's becoming simpler has to be traced geographically to see how we got to songs with absolutely no substance. As you guys know I'm from New Orleans and many view the South as contributing to the decline in lyrical skills etc... (We could all name several good rappers from the south so that's not what I'm trying to debate.)

I think Geographically, initially some indie labels in the South got on because there are a bunch of P2 radio stations in the South. While Guys on the West and East coasts were going at record labels for deals mainly, guys in the South didn't have the same access to labels so they put out small projects that sold some numbers at home and were pushed on college and P2 stations. Eventually the majors caught on because these guys were either getting spins, or moving some units independent (2 things that sometime majors can't always do either of). This led the way to copycats when some of these guys signed with majors.

Of course the South has some Amazingly talented artists, But
I can remember when everybody thought some of the South's acts were really releasing local "sounding" records in comparison to the stuff coming from majors, BUT they had proven markets for it. Also labels had a situation where they could sign records they didn't really have to get behind because they already had a buzz. This led to labels getting behind more "southern" sounding records and NY artists beginning to sound more like what labels were pushing

I think that forever changed this game and we are in the tail end of it.

I think it's a credit to the South business wise, because we made something out of NOTHING. We didn't have access to big studios, big labels etc... But we got out and made it work with whatever was available.

Now labels are looking for the least common denominator so it's gotten WORSE over the years.

The game if forever changed budgets were getting tighter before declining sales numbers. And now with sales dipping we are in for a ****storm to come soon.

Would you agree?

(Note I may have sped through this and left out some stuff, forgive me.)
Old 23rd August 2007
  #54
jje
Gear Nut
 
jje's Avatar
 

Just to throw in my comments here...

I think rap will begin to change in the not too far away future simply because of the artists making the music and the (current or former) hip hop heads running the labels are growing up and having children of their own. Russell Simmons isn't 25 and partying out anymore. He's a grown man with kids. Ditto on Master P, Ice Cube, and a slew of the other "old heads".

As they grow older and mature, they begin to realize that the stuff they're putting out and the stuff they made back in the day...they don't want their kids listening to that stuff. They don't want them watching the videos with women (especially if they have daughters) and they realize it's not the right thing to put out anymore.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #55
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t.dizzle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
Mark my words, eventually, and probably sooner than later, the music industry is going stop recording full albums with alot of artists and only do singles when they know they have a song they can sell. The artist will release a single, or maybe a 4 song EP on itunes and not even put it in stores. There will always be artists who can deliver a whole album, but i think there will be a new industry model in the future that is a singles model without reliance on brick and mortar stores. When this happens, we're all ****ed because all of the super producers will get all of the gigs and there will be no scraps.
Just like in the beginning - but with the internet replacing the radio stations. Having an album was reserved for those with contined success.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #56
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t.dizzle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jje View Post
Just to throw in my comments here...

I think rap will begin to change in the not too far away future simply because of the artists making the music and the (current or former) hip hop heads running the labels are growing up and having children of their own. Russell Simmons isn't 25 and partying out anymore. He's a grown man with kids. Ditto on Master P, Ice Cube, and a slew of the other "old heads".

As they grow older and mature, they begin to realize that the stuff they're putting out and the stuff they made back in the day...they don't want their kids listening to that stuff. They don't want them watching the videos with women (especially if they have daughters) and they realize it's not the right thing to put out anymore.
Dude - all those cats you named are old and have teenage kids. They don't give a fvck. Trust me.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Dude - all those cats you named are old and have teenage kids. They don't give a fvck. Trust me.
that's what I was thinking

LOL Russel is closer to 55 than 25 LOL
Old 23rd August 2007
  #58
jje
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.dizzle View Post
Dude - all those cats you named are old and have teenage kids. They don't give a fvck. Trust me.

And as a parent I can tell you that they do unless they don't care about their children.

*edit* and I named those people as a few examples (I'm sure there are more) of older heads who are in (or moving into) positions of power to decide what comes out and what doesn't. Growing up poor, busting your ass to make something for yourself and your family so you can move into that nice neighborhood away from crime, drugs, and the street life only to hear your son sing about dealing and what ho is gonna give him dome tonight can make you realize that there's one more thing you forgot to eliminate.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jje View Post
And as a parent I can tell you that they do unless they don't care about their children.

*edit* and I named those people as a few examples (I'm sure there are more) of older heads who are in (or moving into) positions of power to decide what comes out and what doesn't. Growing up poor, busting your ass to make something for yourself and your family so you can move into that nice neighborhood away from crime, drugs, and the street life only to hear your son sing about dealing and what ho is gonna give him dome tonight can make you realize that there's one more thing you forgot to eliminate.
Or it could give you a perspective on your old life and how real it actually is for some people.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #60
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cynic one's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
...
I think that forever changed this game and we are in the tail end of it.

I think it's a credit to the South business wise, because we made something out of NOTHING. We didn't have access to big studios, big labels etc... But we got out and made it work with whatever was available.

Now labels are looking for the least common denominator so it's gotten WORSE over the years.

The game if forever changed budgets were getting tighter before declining sales numbers. And now with sales dipping we are in for a ****storm to come soon.

Would you agree?

(Note I may have sped through this and left out some stuff, forgive me.)
Definitely well thought out...and I do agree.

It's easy to see how that would happen when hip hop music is being run as a business.

Business needs to pay shareholders, business needs to make money...it's all about the bottom line. As a business, if you don't have to blow a whole bunch of money on promotion and can just get behind something that you know already works - why not? Why not just push the same thing that has been working, assembly line style.

But we're seeing now that music as a business can't think with a business mind alone - especially something that's supposed to be authentic, real, and true like hip hop should be. Like has been mentioned before, people see through it eventually, people crave variety. Throw the devaluation of music into the mix because of technology and you get to where we are today.

People still want value...Assuming anyone can get your mp3 for free, what else could be offered to an audience that's above and beyond that? Better album art? Videos? Merchandise? A live show? Bonus material? Access to an online community of like-minded people?

Maybe it's as simple as making tunes easier to get than the pirated ones. Maybe it's pricing the music at a cost that people are willing to pay. I gladly forked over $99 for FL studio when I could have pirated it just as easily. It was just too cheap not to. Access to the developers, the online forum, and free updates were all benefits the cracked software couldn't offer me.

I don't even claim to have the answer, and it's something I rack my brain trying to figure out every time I work on starting up my label.

If the next big thing is independent promotion, internet sales, single sales via mp3, etc - wouldn't those who already know how to get on the grind and push their own **** benefit the most? It's going to be "business as usual" for them when the whole thing crashes to the ground.
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