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Quality Is Back - Keep Your High End
Old 2nd October 2019
  #1
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Quality Is Back - Keep Your High End

Some may think this post don't belong here, but ultimately its the best place for it. Plus I tried to post this in "Pro Audio News" where it must belong, and I was denied access.. weird...

Anyway, the biggest news is this, and I been dying for this to happen for a decade now. This will open all doors for quality in music to finally be a trend again. (give it time, it will). Like back in the 70's and 80's.

Finally someone big (Amazon Music) is offering music downloads and streaming in extremely high quality. I wrote them personally to acquire the inside tech info. Here it is (edited down and cut and pasted from my email):

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“Amazon Music HD offers lossless audio in two quality ranges: HD and Ultra HD.
HD tracks are 16-bit audio, with a minimum sample rate of 44.1 kHz (16/44.1 is also referred to as CD-quality), and an average bitrate of 850 kbps. Ultra HD tracks have a bit depth of 24 bits, with sample rates ranging from 44.1 kHz up to 192 kHz, and an average bitrate of 3730 kbps.”

SD (lossy): 9 MB
HD (lossless, 44.1 kHz sample rate): 51 MB
Ultra HD (lossless, max 192 kHz sample rate): 153 MB”

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Obviously they will only offer the highest form that the artist/record label gave them/released. Also - This means iTunes, Spotify, Pandora, etc.. will all eventually want to compete. Over time the kids indeed will have a option at least now for high quality. This in turn over time will make us start thinking a 24bit 96k file that we record in is also done deal ! No need for dither, conversions, etc.. Just keep it where you have it !

So think about it - trickle effect is, eventually all the big names now have reason to release 24/96k album releases. As that happens, kids try it out. Customers like it better. Etc.. Drive size is basically free now, so that argument is obsolete. The OPTION will at least be there. That option trickles down to us making release choices based on them options. And that causes abundance of that higher quality option available. It catches on, and the new trend is quality again ! Sweeeeeeet !

Of course not this instant. I get that. And of course all the pestimistic folks gonna come in to say the kids wont bother with them options.. and the stupid outdated proven wrong Nyquist Theorem fan boys - blah blah blah -- BUT my biggest point is this is the beginning at least. Of something possible. And where it can lead to is great news for us !!

(again, possibly, I know) -

Anyway, wanted to share. PLEASE spread the word. Amazon is offering downloads and streaming of music in 24bit / 96k. And we all know that means iTunes will too soon. The more people that know this, the more this trickle down effect will happen faster. SPREAD THE WORD ASAP. Please.

The biggest good news to this is, make the artist start trying for quality again is all. The competition is back baby ! Fleetwood Mac studio days !!! haha Lets do it, cause now it WILL matter. MP3's to soon be outdated archaic stuff. Kids want that vintage quality bro !!! So strive for it. Can't use the MP3 phenomenon as a excuse to be lazily recording mediocre quality stuff anymore.
Old 2nd October 2019
  #2
Gear Addict
I had gotten news that Amazon was going to offer high-end streaming - but had not paid any attention to their downloads intentions. Most of the digital music I own comes from there.

As I spelunk a lot on YouTube, I'm hoping they will upgrade a bit.

No dog [or bat] in the Nyquist fight one way or the other - but I do have clients who ask for high resolution & bit-rates on both audio and video.


A fun read - thanks!

Ray H.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #3
Firstly - if it's ok, we'll decide what belongs in high end thanks!

Secondly - forget hard drive space, who buys downloads en masse anymore. If something is going to take off, it has to work for streaming.

I think you paint an absolute best case scenario, assuming everyone aside from us engineer types cares about audio quality, and aren't happy listening to crappy phones and bluetooth speakers - but it'd certainly be a good thing to have the option. "Customers like it better" - I don't think most will notice or care unfortunately.

One might hope that at the least, it makes hi-res streaming worth it for those who want to make it available, and not such a niche option.

I'm not arguing from the point of view of what I'D like, more from what I think the masses will want. Can't think like a muso when the target audience isn't (in general).
Old 3rd October 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Firstly - if it's ok, we'll decide what belongs in high end thanks!
Sweet ! Thanks -
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Secondly - forget hard drive space,....**edit, see post# 3 above for original post**
Very true. And I see your absolutely valid points. But 2 things here. This is also including high end streaming, so this is part of my excitement due to exactly what you say. Which this trickle effect I speak of will have to happen then too (labels/artists releasing 24/96k albums/singles). But I do tell you I know plenty of kids that like to collect large libraries of music. They organize them on USB sticks for back up and they constantly swap them around with whats on their phone and not. Streaming doesn't work well with no signal. When in a shotty area for a while, many have decided (that I know anyway) they don't like to put up with the songs stopping and starting, etc.. Their library is best.

The second thing is, we all know that media storages like CD's are out. But the Audiophile group (hi fi home audio kats, this is still a super large market btw, don't know if you know. I was surprised to find out. But its crazy. And its true). These guys (*some*) are stopping to even like vinyl due to its storage space issue. These guys have particularly been leaving streaming and downloads alone due to obvious reasons. NOW they don't have to. Especially if we the artists begin releasing 24/96k albums/singles.

Many of my friend audiophiles try to capture their vinyl for permanent digital storage, BUT now they don't have to.

So this might not catch on like I am hoping sure, but my friend, all that needs to happen is it captures *some* of the new kid market and it will indeed capture almost all of the audiophile market (they will probably be the most happy as its just too perfect for them) once they realize releases have been geared for 24/96k and its not some upscaling conversion thing.

2nd point here - Vintage thoughts do catch on with kids. They already walk around with vintage T-Shirts of stuff they have no clue about, I hear how they search for that "what wasn't here yesterday and no one else has yet" stuff. Remember when bellbottoms came back ?!?! lo - Well switching back to high quality trust you can tell a difference even on a iPhone pending on how the source was. And therefore I could see once the option is available, and they hear the difference in their car (still a big thing), and they WILL... its going to be the new thing. Especially if we help it along.

Remember we don't need *all* the masses man. Just a big enough group to keep the option worth it to these companies. Then its like the cream will rise to the top over the next 5-10 years and slowly everyone will notice.
Old 4th October 2019
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Sweet ! Thanks -


Very true. And I see your absolutely valid points. But 2 things here. This is also including high end streaming, so this is part of my excitement due to exactly what you say. Which this trickle effect I speak of will have to happen then too (labels/artists releasing 24/96k albums/singles). But I do tell you I know plenty of kids that like to collect large libraries of music. They organize them on USB sticks for back up and they constantly swap them around with whats on their phone and not. Streaming doesn't work well with no signal. When in a shotty area for a while, many have decided (that I know anyway) they don't like to put up with the songs stopping and starting, etc.. Their library is best.

The second thing is, we all know that media storages like CD's are out. But the Audiophile group (hi fi home audio kats, this is still a super large market btw, don't know if you know. I was surprised to find out. But its crazy. And its true). These guys (*some*) are stopping to even like vinyl due to its storage space issue. These guys have particularly been leaving streaming and downloads alone due to obvious reasons. NOW they don't have to. Especially if we the artists begin releasing 24/96k albums/singles.

Many of my friend audiophiles try to capture their vinyl for permanent digital storage, BUT now they don't have to.

So this might not catch on like I am hoping sure, but my friend, all that needs to happen is it captures *some* of the new kid market and it will indeed capture almost all of the audiophile market (they will probably be the most happy as its just too perfect for them) once they realize releases have been geared for 24/96k and its not some upscaling conversion thing.

2nd point here - Vintage thoughts do catch on with kids. They already walk around with vintage T-Shirts of stuff they have no clue about, I hear how they search for that "what wasn't here yesterday and no one else has yet" stuff. Remember when bellbottoms came back ?!?! lo - Well switching back to high quality trust you can tell a difference even on a iPhone pending on how the source was. And therefore I could see once the option is available, and they hear the difference in their car (still a big thing), and they WILL... its going to be the new thing. Especially if we help it along.

Remember we don't need *all* the masses man. Just a big enough group to keep the option worth it to these companies. Then its like the cream will rise to the top over the next 5-10 years and slowly everyone will notice.
I still feel you’re on the optimistic side by quite a way, but I guess time will tell - maybe the trends of the pat will be reversed!
Old 4th October 2019
  #6
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
... the biggest news is this, and I been dying for this to happen for a decade now. This will open all doors for quality in music to finally be a trend again. (give it time, it will). Like back in the 70's and 80's.
Ever hear the term "lipstick on a pig?" Back then, reverb was our lipstick and we piled it on. For a very good reason. Underneath all those cosmetics there was a ton of butt-ugly.

I think that in broad strokes, the level of craft in label releases is on average much better now than it was then. Even if not all of the gear is.
Old 4th October 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this entire thread. On a variety of levels.
Old 7th October 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Ever hear the term "lipstick on a pig?" Back then, reverb was our lipstick and we piled it on. For a very good reason. Underneath all those cosmetics there was a ton of butt-ugly.

I think that in broad strokes, the level of craft in label releases is on average much better now than it was then. Even if not all of the gear is.
I disagree (but I see a bit of what your saying in another level). I hear a level of attention to detail that is just lost.

Yes we have better gear now, but thats the sad part, our better gear built better for the environment with all the decades of extra tech knowledge we have now etc.. YET we still can't compete with some of them older textures, sound, etc when they were using inferior gear ! Similar to how we have tons of more info on how to live more healthy, yet no one currently tops any of the older athletes.

LOL, yea cause if you took all the reverb off of Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon or The Wall or Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album, or Prince's Purple Rain or Michael Jackson's albums they would all sound like crap. Uh huh... Keep telling yourself that. Oh also cause whats currently in the billboard top 10 now sounds way better than any of those albums.. right ?.

Come on. I know you know better

Its not the gear, its not the knowledge, its not technology, its not time - but its striving for the best. THATS whats lost. And thats what this thread is about. To start striving for the best again, like 60's Detroit steel baby ! And leave this "its good enough" attitude at the door. This is why I started this thread. Pump it up ! Every single one of us got this in us from birth, its not something you buy or can "figure out". Just simply try the hardest all the time. Quit trying to do things so fast and cutting corners to make the profits look better.

Thats the difference in kats now... back in the day, if you told Michael Jorden "sorry man, your not going to get paid for this year" - he STILL would have hit that court and schooled everyone with his graceful effortless looking flying abilities that people still can't do today. But if you told James Hard-on, Lebron, or any of these new idiots that weren't getting paid, they'd walk off the court. Meanwhile they never even looked as good doing what they do as Jorden did.

And it all comes down to - we don't try as hard as we used to as a human race anymore. Period. We stop at "this is good enough, no one will notice the difference anyway so why keep going". Thats BS in my opinion. Money and time mean nothing to me, I just make sure when my hands have been on something that "signature" is there for all to know and see and hear for eternity. Just like I KNOW all the great people in the past did.
Old 7th October 2019
  #9
Gear Guru
 

I might be misunderstanding Brent (sorry if I misrepresent you) but what I got out of his post was that technically things are better than ever on average. Back decades ago there was this struggle over bandwidth and noise etc. Granted, we love the way those old albums sound, but it sure seems like the direction of technology development was towards cleaner gear in general. I'm guessing that as much as we love old stuff had the engineers at the time had the option they would have opted for cleaner rather than more character.

So from a technical standpoint we can do whatever we want today and things sound "better" than ever - in general.

Your original post though talks about higher sample rates as if that's an indication of increased quality, or using that as a rallying call for higher quality, or "the best" or however you phrased it. I think it's a bit inconsequential then because if Brent is correct (and I think he is) higher sample rates doesn't all of a sudden make us change the gear we use because it's already good enough...

...and that leaves us with the question of whether or not higher sample rates are better...

… again... [sigh]
Old 7th October 2019
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
We stop at "this is good enough, no one will notice the difference anyway so why keep going". Thats BS in my opinion. Money and time mean nothing to me,
Ok, real question for you: Do you create music for a living?
Old 7th October 2019
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I might be misunderstanding Brent (sorry if I misrepresent you) but what I got out of his post was that technically things are better than ever on average. Back decades ago there was this struggle over bandwidth and noise etc. Granted, we love the way those old albums sound, but it sure seems like the direction of technology development was towards cleaner gear in general. I'm guessing that as much as we love old stuff had the engineers at the time had the option they would have opted for cleaner rather than more character.

So from a technical standpoint we can do whatever we want today and things sound "better" than ever - in general.

Your original post though talks about higher sample rates as if that's an indication of increased quality, or using that as a rallying call for higher quality, or "the best" or however you phrased it. I think it's a bit inconsequential then because if Brent is correct (and I think he is) higher sample rates doesn't all of a sudden make us change the gear we use because it's already good enough...

...and that leaves us with the question of whether or not higher sample rates are better...

… again... [sigh]
Yea, I think that is what he meant too, and I do get it. And agree to a point. Also thanks for chiming in !!

My point is higher sample rates are indeed better, always have been always will be. I could spend hours proving to you why, and it has mostly nothing to do with "quality" per say as your thinking, but it does at the end of the day, let me explain. The biggest hint is "timing". Summary - It is WAY smoother timing wise and that I can feel/hear. Also for the most part plug in reverb tails sound way better at 96k than 48k. But again, its really a timing resolution thing. its smooth like tape. More places to "quantize' your delivery (cause if you don't know ALL digital recording quantizes your delivery, tape does not). This is what EVERYONE overlooks in the debate. And when I bring it up, they have nothing they can say. (other than they overlooked that). Again, its also why the Nyquist Theory is garbage for the most part.

Its like they are judging the wrong thing (what our ears can decipher and not) and then basing their whole concept behind that and deeming it worthless. Ha ! What a joke. They forget to mention the timing and plug in part. Also I'll be straight with you, I can hear and do 100% of the time in a triple blind test hear frequencies I can not hear MANIPULATE those frequencies right under them that I can hear, in turn making frequencies I can not hear VERY important. So again, to rule something out on white paper theory is garbage. Things you can't hear, sure you can't hear them, BUT you can hear how they effect things you CAN hear. And this is why you can indeed hear a difference if your "into" the music for real and not just doing music as work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Ok, real question for you: Do you create music for a living?
Yes I do. Have been since 1996. Everything I have today is from music production, writing, recording and my own releases.

I am mainly directing this thread to artists like myself. Its up to us (not the recording engineers) to want/desire/pay for/take the time for higher end stuff. All thanks to Amazon offering this FINALLY we can justify it now is the point. They then relay that to the engineers, and we all begin to be part of understanding the importance of it again.

I'm just hoping it becomes a trend. Like when, if you aint got them type of shoes, or glamorous things then your not cool trend was = well, if you didn't drop a 24/96k release then you a sucka chump like that broke MF down the block - haha ! Yes ! Lets start that. Its the new trend ! Your not cool if you don't do it.
Old 7th October 2019
  #12
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I might be misunderstanding Brent (sorry if I misrepresent you) but what I got out of his post was that technically things are better than ever on average.
You got it right. And DSOTM and Rumours were way way way better than average for the time.
Old 7th October 2019
  #13
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I highly doubt that you're living off of making music if you truly have the attitude that money and time means nothing. It's usually important when making a living.

As for the rest of it: Cool. Whatever floats your boat.

There's been a million threads about sample rates and any and all arguments you can come up with that you think are new have been done before. We don't really need more of those threads so I won't comment on it.
Old 8th October 2019
  #14
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
[. . .] There's been a million threads about sample rates and [. . .]
To be completely accurate this thread makes it 1,000,001 - as it is [I think] a significant component of the OP's post. And while not to start another holy war. . .

I can't hear the difference between 48k and 192k, unless I'm in slo-mo. In slo-mo I can [also useful in some of my Foley]. And as stated, I don't own a dog or a bat. Well, there are some bats over the lake behind my house, but I don't play my stuff that loud in the evenings. So if Amazon gives me 192k, I doubt I will hear it. Wish I could say the same for YouTube.

Still I do get requests for - and often enough record at - high rates. Aside from the marketing angle, I think my clients believe that additional processing will eventually come forward that will make use of the extra data points - and storage is cheap. A canonical example being analogous substitution [simulation is too strong a word for me yet] of desired tube/preamp effects when driving/pumping a bit. This makes sense to me as a quasi-mathematician - but is not my personal objective.


Now ducking for cover,

Ray H.

I'll open the windows when it cools down a bit more here [Florida] and see if I can give the bats a bit more high-end.
Old 8th October 2019
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I highly doubt that you're living off of making music if you truly have the attitude that money and time means nothing. It's usually important when making a living.
No its only important when your working for idiots. (aka most the world).

When your not worried about mass production, and you become picky about who your work for and work with, then you will find everything changes.

I turn down business all the time. Once I hear that "can you hook me up bro" / "Im on a budget (but yet I rap about how much money I got)" / "but joe blow down the block charges me $100 for a mix" stuff - I immediately give the middle finger. I don't support that direction of the business. My motto is I'd rather go broke.

So I had faith, followed my heart. Stayed picky as hell, And sure enough I always get the right amount of business from the RIGHT clients to keep me and my property here in San Francisco just fine with many toys too. And also dump lots into my own releases.

Remember this - money is replaceable. So its nothing. Time, Well - my molecules were arranged in this universe to make music and deliver timeless pieces to ears for eternity. So why would I be in a rush to do it ? I enjoy the journey too much. I like to savor every moment of the process. Sometimes I spend 3-4 days just looking for that right reverb.

Those in a rush/time based/"my workflow bro" types in the music industry truly deep down don't like music. They are doing it for other reasons, THIS is why they feel time is against them.

This is applicable to any field. Being in a rush to do anything is just simply wrong. I separate myself from people like that, or that want that, its bad energy, plus its useless. And I always watch those types fail, struggle and never have fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
There's been a million threads about sample rates and any and all arguments you can come up with that you think are new have been done before. We don't really need more of those threads so I won't comment on it.
Well the one I bought up has zero argument to it. So someone either cares or don't. But they can't say its not true.
Old 8th October 2019
  #16
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K. You're doing you. Keep doing that.
Old 8th October 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
I can't hear the difference between 48k and 192k, unless I'm in slo-mo. In slo-mo I can
Dude, thats a good point. Never thought of that. And I believe you there.

That said - I do not track at 192. That is a bit much for even my preaching ass ! haha. I'm just glad to see its there though.

I do use 192 to capture a stereo mix back from the console/tape path for a digital print of the highest quality of my final ATR 102 Tape mix. But I rarely even use it. I master directly off the tapes usually.

So my main thing here is advocating 24/96k recording due to it having a slight bit more of a purpose now. Thats all. I totally understand people not wanting to go 192k.

But I'd like to see the trend going in that direction.
Old 8th October 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
K. You're doing you. Keep doing that.
Thanks man ! I just want others to see the narrow path is the right path. This wide path the masses follow is only for ease and comfort and not for anything else.

That alone should hint to whats right and wrong. Diamond in the ruff everything you do. Not dime a dozen it.
Old 8th October 2019
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
No its only important when your working for idiots. (aka most the world).

When your not worried about mass production, and you become picky about who your work for and work with, then you will find everything changes.

I turn down business all the time. Once I hear that "can you hook me up bro" / "Im on a budget (but yet I rap about how much money I got)" / "but joe blow down the block charges me $100 for a mix" stuff - I immediately give the middle finger. I don't support that direction of the business. My motto is I'd rather go broke.

So I had faith, followed my heart. Stayed picky as hell, And sure enough I always get the right amount of business from the RIGHT clients to keep me and my property here in San Francisco just fine with many toys too. And also dump lots into my own releases.

Remember this - money is replaceable. So its nothing. Time, Well - my molecules were arranged in this universe to make music and deliver timeless pieces to ears for eternity. So why would I be in a rush to do it ? I enjoy the journey too much. I like to savor every moment of the process. Sometimes I spend 3-4 days just looking for that right reverb.

Those in a rush/time based/"my workflow bro" types in the music industry truly deep down don't like music. They are doing it for other reasons, THIS is why they feel time is against them.

This is applicable to any field. Being in a rush to do anything is just simply wrong. I separate myself from people like that, or that want that, its bad energy, plus its useless. And I always watch those types fail, struggle and never have fun.

Well the one I bought up has zero argument to it. So someone either cares or don't. But they can't say its not true.
But is it a full time gig, or a part time setup that pays for itself? It’s a very different proposition.

Not everyone working on a budget is “working for idiots” - that’s a sweeping and slightly demeaning statement. I don’t think I’ve ever worked a project that has an unlimited budget. I agree with you that I don’t get involved in the bottom feeders, but then I’ve done that in the past too, and I’ve managed to work my way above that!

Spending 3-4 days looking for the right reverb? You can’t work at any level of profitability like that - hence the reason I’m saying your “work” here is a hobby that might pay for itself, but it can’t be paying for your time. If you look at things properly, you’d see that. You’d also see that those dedicating themselves to things full time, can’t think like that. In fact the skill is that they don’t NEED to - their experience means they can pick the right verb in 5mins. That’s part of what their client is paying for - efficiency through experience. Taking time isn’t important, it’s results.

You can’t “go broke” if you don’t need to pay the bills. Most of us need our work to pay the bills, and my family sure as hell wouldn’t appreciate going hungry ‘cos I couldn’t bring myself to mix a song I didn’t like!!
Old 8th October 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
But is it a full ...*edit, see original post above**
Haha, very true - sorry I really didn't mean to sound demeaning. I did mean bottom feeders as you put it. But to me, thats most people now a days. So thats why I put it like that. I feel we are becoming overwhelmed by bottom feeders and that makes some give in and comply. ONCE you do it once, then that will be the new going rate. There is no returning. So I choose to stay like Apple. High prices and if you don't like it, go buy a PC then. Simple. lol I aint giving in. And guess what, if joe blow didn't give in years ago we wouldn't even be facing these issues. All it takes is that one person undercutting everything and every one and its all screwed.

Sorry if I hadn't explained myself before about what I do, I thought you all knew me more by now - and read between the lines. I work full time + on music. (easily 12hrs a day). That is split between client based work and I also am a artist. Release my own stuff. When working on my things, its no holes barred, time is of no concern. Neither is money. Its a passion project. Yes I'll spend 3 days searching for a verb, then 1 week later change it and test 5 more and pick a new one !

(and I mean 3 days testing which hardware verb is the best. No one can pick the best in a test line up in 5 min. What they did is just choose what they think would be best in 5min. I do that too, but it doesn't mean it really was/is the best for the song. To alleviate that concern and know 100% for sure, I *sometimes* decide to run through several reverbs, 10-15 different ones, hardware and plug in and A/B choose the best one from there - which is superior, but time costly - yes. But no way sir can anyone do that in 5min - they just guessed due to comfort and ease. I been doing this since 1996 man, so I also can choose the most likely best candidate in 5min, but that isn't always the best. I like certainty. It makes me feel good. I hate the "what if" feeling. lol)

Yes, you are right no project is unlimited. I agree. But its the people that don't understand you gonna get what you pay for is what kills me. its that simple. So more = more. (and thats what I meant without meaning to be demeaning)

And yes sir, no client based project I ever worked on was unlimited budget wise or time wise either. But its a mentality you need to have that helps. Within that, I only work for clients that have heard my stuff before, like it and want "that quality". To get that I explain, if they accept, we work... if they do not, I do not chase them, I replace them. Simple. Cause thats how I like to work. (within reason, for instance I do not tell them we need to spend 3 days searching for the right verb, lol)

On another side, if I get passionate about their project enough - I will do that and not charge them for the searching time. Stuff like that. I am fair.
Old 8th October 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
its the people that don't understand you gonna get what you pay for is what kills me. its that simple. So more = more.
Right, so money means something, not nothing, which is exactly what I thought.

For someone to whom money means nothing they'll noodle around on whatever for however long they want, charge zero, or a lot, whatever, and be fine with it.

If you're making a living and care about things then money matters. That's what at least I was getting at.
Old 8th October 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Right, so money means something, not nothing, which is exactly what I thought.

For someone to whom money means nothing they'll noodle around on whatever for however long they want, charge zero, or a lot, whatever, and be fine with it.

If you're making a living and care about things then money matters. That's what at least I was getting at.
I see what your saying and your totally right. Money means something in that sense, yes. I think I type too fast and sometimes don't say exactly how I mean what I am trying to get across. I meant it in a sentence/statement that *some people* need to hear. Maybe not you or I, but overly frugal money worshiping stingy people need to hear - just spend more and notice how when you do, it comes back to you. They need to hear, invest in yourself and your talent like there is no budget and your more likely to get blessed in return than if you half-ass your investments into yourself.

IMO that works for time too. So for those time crazy nuts, I like to tell them that time is all we do have here on this planet. But yes, to a lazy sloth I tell them to hurry tf up ! lol I am just trying to balance out those that need the balance.
That was my point. Sorry again if I mis construed it.
Old 8th October 2019
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Haha, very true - sorry I really didn't mean to sound demeaning. I did mean bottom feeders as you put it. But to me, thats most people now a days. So thats why I put it like that. I feel we are becoming overwhelmed by bottom feeders and that makes some give in and comply. ONCE you do it once, then that will be the new going rate. There is no returning. So I choose to stay like Apple. High prices and if you don't like it, go buy a PC then. Simple. lol I aint giving in. And guess what, if joe blow didn't give in years ago we wouldn't even be facing these issues. All it takes is that one person undercutting everything and every one and its all screwed.
Well, that and the rise of home recording/mixing, over supply vs demand, lack of budgets in general etc....even the big guys have had to lower rates a lot of the time! But I agree with your overall thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Sorry if I hadn't explained myself before about what I do, I thought you all knew me more by now - and read between the lines. I work full time + on music. (easily 12hrs a day). That is split between client based work and I also am a artist. Release my own stuff. When working on my things, its no holes barred, time is of no concern. Neither is money. Its a passion project. Yes I'll spend 3 days searching for a verb, then 1 week later change it and test 5 more and pick a new one !
Right. But clearly you can't commit to a client mix then spend 3 days on a reverb. It's simply not possible to run a business that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
(and I mean 3 days testing which hardware verb is the best. No one can pick the best in a test line up in 5 min. What they did is just choose what they think would be best in 5min. I do that too, but it doesn't mean it really was/is the best for the song. To alleviate that concern and know 100% for sure, I *sometimes* decide to run through several reverbs, 10-15 different ones, hardware and plug in and A/B choose the best one from there - which is superior, but time costly - yes. But no way sir can anyone do that in 5min - they just guessed due to comfort and ease. I been doing this since 1996 man, so I also can choose the most likely best candidate in 5min, but that isn't always the best. I like certainty. It makes me feel good. I hate the "what if" feeling. lol)
I couldn't keep perspective over that amount of time on that small a detail...I get what you're saying, but that's the practical side of making a great mix. Obsessing over tiny details has its place, but not at the expense of other things. Your client is paying you to have a handle on those things, so yes if you need to experiment, up to a point that should be on your time!

Quote:
Yes, you are right no project is unlimited. I agree. But its the people that don't understand you gonna get what you pay for is what kills me. its that simple. So more = more. (and thats what I meant without meaning to be demeaning)

And yes sir, no client based project I ever worked on was unlimited budget wise or time wise either. But its a mentality you need to have that helps. Within that, I only work for clients that have heard my stuff before, like it and want "that quality". To get that I explain, if they accept, we work... if they do not, I do not chase them, I replace them. Simple. Cause thats how I like to work. (within reason, for instance I do not tell them we need to spend 3 days searching for the right verb, lol)

On another side, if I get passionate about their project enough - I will do that and not charge them for the searching time. Stuff like that. I am fair.
Right. I think you've been exaggerating slightly - you're not really spending weeks on a client mix, you're maybe just spending a bit more time experimenting when working on your own stuff.

It's simple really - if you're going to do a job for a living, you have to have a reasonable amount of consistency and efficiency. The slightly eccentric guy who spends weeks crafting a mix might end up with something everyone agrees is amazing, might even be sonically superior, but it's not a practical way for anyone to work - he'd take 6 months to mix an album, by which time his potential clients are on to their next project. You can't really dismiss the work of guys consistently getting hired to do their thing in a timely fashion, if you're not at least able to compete in the same terms.

I know there's any amount of bedroom/weekend warriors who like to slam on the sound of the Top 40, or anything else mass produced - but it's a very different world to having to do things for a living. You're already revealing you do things differently for a paid job than when you're working artistically. And that's probably the right approach!
Old 8th October 2019
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Well, that and the ...**edit, see original post #23 above**
Totally. You got it right. Also I want to clarify, I wasn't really exaggerating, but maybe trying to balance things out/devils advocate a bit - when talking about doing things right/quality/ cut no corners, etc.. I was not speaking to engineers and you all for that. I was speaking to the artists/clients to start taking at least a slight way to this approach, this mentality, this "care".

Put it to you this way, in 1993 when I was trying to do my thing as a artist and before I had any equipment, before I knew how to record, I had the approach and mentality I am suggesting artists to have now. Why ? Cause I was real about my sh*t and I also am a bit OCD in a good way. Outcome speaks for itself. But I would spend time like I do now on my stuff in a studio I was paying for ! I remember spending soooo much time on things. Cause I cared. And this was back then prices ! And yes, I'd pay for a whole session just trying different pieces of gear. I starved at night and lived in a apartment the size of a bathroom (no joke) just to do this. Where is this dedication *from the artists* anymore ? (3 years later, thanks to that dedication, a few songs I had my hands on went far enough for me to buy all my own stuff, eventually start a independent record label and the rest is history, here I am).

So again, I was never telling you guys to start having this approach yourselves (unless your a artist), I was saying keep your high end gear and don't be afraid of 96k because I am going to tell (in the same sentence) all *artists* to start caring enough about your project to actually take the time and money to cut no corners. With the Amazon thing as a backing for the concept being reasonable now. (at least for the sample rate thing, I admit I am a bit sidetracked of course) Hopefully this explains my post a little better ? lol I swore I had that all in the first one, but I guess I was a bit excited, haha.

Besides releasing in 24/96k - One small other example - I swear I'm the only one not copying and pasting choruses. I can hear that phony sh*t. I insist to do all my choruses for real each chorus. You get a much better vibe that way. And it only costs a few more bucks really. Yes I did fall for that in the 2003'ish era. I was the copy/paste master ! haha, but then I thought, what am I doing ? Just to save some time I compromise the integrity of a art piece. So now I perform all my choruses (or I pay my singers to) do them all like back in the day. The listener feels that man ! Trust me. Take the time to comb through all the studio's mics, take the time to listen to how each different piece of gear will sound and choose from your now experienced opinion and don't trust the engineer. Thats how I did it. It also gives you a good idea what to use for what down the road on your album.

Little stuff like that. Again, not to the engineers of the world, no, to the artists. Then you engineers will begin to see the trickle effect. More people wanna do things right again ! Time shouldn't be so damn "worrisome" when doing art. Save that for doing taxes and paying bills on time. lol Theres already too much stress in life, don't bring that into a art. WTF ? You'll loose the essence immediately.

Now the engineers of the world, yes they need to worry about time. Anyone charging a hourly rate should be conscious of peoples time. BUT the artist should lift that worry from you is what I am saying, just like I did every studio I paid for. (within reason of course)
Old 8th October 2019
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Totally. You got it right. Also I want to clarify, I wasn't really exaggerating, but maybe trying to balance things out/devils advocate a bit - when talking about doing things right/quality/ cut no corners, etc.. I was not speaking to engineers and you all for that. I was speaking to the artists/clients to start taking at least a slight way to this approach, this mentality, this "care".
OK fair enough I can understand that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Put it to you this way, in 1993 when I was trying to do my thing as a artist and before I had any equipment, before I knew how to record, I had the approach and mentality I am suggesting artists to have now. Why ? Cause I was real about my sh*t and I also am a bit OCD in a good way. Outcome speaks for itself. But I would spend time like I do now on my stuff in a studio I was paying for ! I remember spending soooo much time on things. Cause I cared. And this was back then prices ! And yes, I'd pay for a whole session just trying different pieces of gear. I starved at night and lived in a apartment the size of a bathroom (no joke) just to do this. Where is this dedication *from the artists* anymore ? (3 years later, thanks to that dedication, a few songs I had my hands on went far enough for me to buy all my own stuff, eventually start a independent record label and the rest is history, here I am).
Sure - I would say it's better to get something out, get things rolling and move on to the next thing sometimes though - otherwise you'll never finish stuff! particularly as a young artist (and things have changed of course too).

Quote:
So again, I was never telling you guys to start having this approach yourselves (unless your a artist), I was saying keep your high end gear and don't be afraid of 96k because I am going to tell (in the same sentence) all *artists* to start caring enough about your project to actually take the time and money to cut no corners. With the Amazon thing as a backing for the concept being reasonable now. (at least for the sample rate thing, I admit I am a bit sidetracked of course) Hopefully this explains my post a little better ? lol I swore I had that all in the first one, but I guess I was a bit excited, haha.
yep, we digressed somewhat.

Quote:
Besides releasing in 24/96k - One small other example - I swear I'm the only one not copying and pasting choruses. I can hear that phony sh*t. I insist to do all my choruses for real each chorus. You get a much better vibe that way. And it only costs a few more bucks really. Yes I did fall for that in the 2003'ish era. I was the copy/paste master ! haha, but then I thought, what am I doing ? Just to save some time I compromise the integrity of a art piece. So now I perform all my choruses (or I pay my singers to) do them all like back in the day. The listener feels that man ! Trust me.
the copy paste thing - I do it both ways, depending on aesthetic.

If it's pop - the idea is perfection. As a producer friend said, if it's perfect the first time, why would you redo it? Especially when so much pop is stacked and tuned etc, it doesn't make sense to attempt to do 3-4 choruses exactly the same. That goes too for any rock or whatever where the chorus is MEANT to sound the same.

At the same time, if you're making rock or folk or anything else, I'm with you! but many aren't...and yes it shows.

Quote:
Take the time to comb through all the studio's mics, take the time to listen to how each different piece of gear will sound and choose from your now experienced opinion and don't trust the engineer. Thats how I did it. It also gives you a good idea what to use for what down the road on your album.
Personally, I feel that's building up experience. When I'm doing a vocal, I don't have time to shoot out every studio mic just in case. I generally put up 2-3, and unless something isn't working, then I don't go further - we don't have time! WHICH 2-3 I put up is based on experience

(that said, I've got a Wagner 47, so it's not exactly hard to choose a mic!).

Quote:
Little stuff like that. Again, not to the engineers of the world, no, to the artists. Then you engineers will begin to see the trickle effect. More people wanna do things right again ! Time shouldn't be so damn "worrisome" when doing art. Save that for doing taxes and paying bills on time. lol Theres already too much stress in life, don't bring that into a art. WTF ? You'll loose the essence immediately.
That's great in an ideal world, but it's always better to get it done and out than be 100% satisfied....

Quote:
Now the engineers of the world, yes they need to worry about time. Anyone charging a hourly rate should be conscious of peoples time. BUT the artist should lift that worry from you is what I am saying, just like I did every studio I paid for. (within reason of course)
It's just not always that simple. Sometimes, needs must.
Old 8th October 2019
  #26
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
Dude, [. . .] my main thing here is advocating 24/96k recording [. . .]
For a number of recordist, that is changing to 32-bit [wide-range] floating point over 48k or 96k even as we speak. Where it can be used, I suspect it will alleviate a number of unhappy accidents.


Ray H. [a.k.a. Dude]

Of course, the mix delivered to the client is generally not 32-bits.
Old 8th October 2019
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
**edited... see original post# 25
All your statements are totally true. I agree 100%. True too that nothing and no-one is ideal. Once you strive for perfection... oh man your in trouble, why ? Cause perfection doesn't and shouldn't exist. I do get all that even though I come across different. I just wish I seen people try like folks back in the day did. (this applies to literally everything)

These artist don't wanna get their knuckles bloody like they used to. They don't wanna *truly* sacrifice, don't *truly* invest in their goal. How can anyone expect a goal to pay off if you invest more in your car or clothes than you do your goal ? By the nature of law, your car and clothes will now bless you more than that said goal. LOL - Thats how things work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
For a number of recordist, that is changing to 32-bit [wide-range] floating point over 48k or 96k even as we speak. Where it can be used, I suspect it will alleviate a number of unhappy accidents.


Ray H. [a.k.a. Dude]

Of course, the mix delivered to the client is generally not 32-bits.
Dude, totally correct. I just say 24bit, because FYI thats what it really is (hence the float). But of course I am recording in my DAW at 32bit float/ 96k all the time. Why not ?

And bros - Before the arguments start, LOL - lets just remember this thread isn't about the debate of 16 vs 24 vs 32f. I like the dynamic range headroom it gives me on drums, so lets leave it at that. There is a difference, just not how some think.

And 96k, I like the delivery smoothness and reverb tails better. And now - I can pass that directly onto Amazon ! Man, thats what this thread is about.
Old 8th October 2019
  #28
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infa View Post
[. . .] I just say 24bit, because FYI thats what it really is (hence the float) [. . .]
Apologies for not previously being more explanatory. . .

As a long time pro software dev, I should likely make it clear that 'float' in my post refers to a floating point representation - as opposed to integer representation. Wide range refers to an encoding that maps those numerical representations to a very wide dynamic range. There are a number of 32-bit encodings for audio signals and they are not created equally.

In software, we use single-precision floating-point format largely to represent what most would think of as real numbers [and the like, kinda] - but complexity of this topic will rise very rapidly when one starts to ask a few simple questions. . .if one expects precise answers.


The common statement that "32-bit float *is* 24-bit audio" is no where near correct when discussing 32-bit wide range floating point encoding. In this encoding you wind up with somewhere on the order of 700 db increase [best I remember on the MixPre II implementation] in your available dynamic range - not a typo!

A primary consequence is that limiters are no longer required. . .hence no more unhappy accidents - e.g., from having the gain set too high.

Now, that's something to write home about!


Cheers,

Ray H.

Interestingly, most platforms I know of support this wide format - only be careful to turn down the volume on your earphones before hitting play.

[Edit] I forgot to sign using my 'Dude' moniker. Mmmm, next time.
Old 8th October 2019
  #29
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Now if they could only start streaming DSD.
Old 8th October 2019
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath View Post
**See original post# 28
No need to apologize dude, I should apologize for making such a ignorant statement I guess. And I appreciate the knowledge. I didn't know any of that as you put it, but I had kinda heard similar things. And thanks for correcting me. I actually never studied into it too far, but I was just using logical deduction that if my Interface didn't change and its still 24 bit, then how am I really changing the bit depth of my audio in the DAW past 24 bit ?

When getting into it a bit, I read (or what I gathered from what I read, haha) that "float" is the key word here, in laymen terms basically means not really 32 bit in the common phrase/use of the word, but rather something else more technical, and its outcome is giving higher dynamic range headroom. Not a actual "quality" increase per se.

Of course that is the super dumbed down, I have no clue what I'm talking about version. LOL

Either way, once I could, I started using it and never turned back. (except for some things of course, for instance I record my old school vintage synth's/drum machine's "cassette saves" in 16/44.1k, even I'm not that crazy to record those things in 32/96, haha)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Now if they could only start streaming DSD.
Now your just making fun of me. lol Ok, I see how it is. Poke a stick at the funny guy.
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