The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Separating the Artist from their Art
Old 19th August 2019
  #31
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
I have also learned that he wanted a Jew to conduct his Parcifal, who he basically said that he understood Wagner like no other. I think that goes some way to absolving him of his views, especially considering that era’s common views.
No - he insisted that he be baptized in order to conduct it.
Old 19th August 2019
  #32
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreiPiatra View Post
And in spite of that...how can anyone not say that Hitler did a great job with the German infrastructure? Ok, he was an extremist, but let's focus on what eventually matters for us and for our future, and that is the good.
Sorry, but no; this is how we repeat the ills of the past.
Old 19th August 2019
  #33
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post

Yes, propaganda can be art. I've seen a couple of exhibits of propaganda art. They're interesting...I think one can detach artistic elements from controversial connotations. Maybe not immediately while it's happening, but with time and hindsight, they can be analysed and appreciated for what is is and better understand the context that they existed in.

History should be transparent...
I think it's easier to look at propagandist art when you're not in the "in-group" that it's directed toward. I can watch, say, state-approved Chinese television and see where a little rebellious criticism has been snuck in, criticizing the party line. The censors missed it, either because they are blind to, or because they secretly agree with it.

I can view Russian Communist art and find it good, or usually, stomach-churning, in a way only modern American White Jesus Christian art can do. While technically competent in a Thomas Kinkade sort of way, the content (message) is repulsive.
Old 19th August 2019
  #34
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
No - he insisted that he be baptized in order to conduct it.
Did he? Pooh... I guess Wagner goes on the **** list again.
Old 19th August 2019
  #35
Lives for gear
 
norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
Did he? Pooh... I guess Wagner goes on the **** list again.
He was never off mine....and not just because of his antisemitism.
Old 19th August 2019
  #36
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
I think it's easier to look at propagandist art when you're not in the "in-group" that it's directed toward. I can watch, say, state-approved Chinese television and see where a little rebellious criticism has been snuck in, criticizing the party line. The censors missed it, either because they are blind to, or because they secretly agree with it.

I can view Russian Communist art and find it good, or usually, stomach-churning, in a way only modern American White Jesus Christian art can do. While technically competent in a Thomas Kinkade sort of way, the content (message) is repulsive.
I kinda like N Korean propaganda art. Very stylized and distinctive. The one's where they deify Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are hilarious.
Old 19th August 2019
  #37
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
He was never off mine....and not just because of his antisemitism.
I love Romantic Chromaticism. Wagner, Schönberg (before he de-umlauted), and all the tone poets that followed--Bax, Vaughan-Williams, Respighi, etc.

The only issues I have with Wagner, musically, is that he's long-winded. Really long-winded. I'll stick to preludes and excerpts.

Last edited by syntonica; 19th August 2019 at 05:56 PM..
Old 19th August 2019
  #38
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
I love Romantic Chromaticism. Wagner, Schönberg (before he de-umlauted), and all the tone poets that followed--Bax, Vaughan-Williams, Respighi, etc.
Who knew - de-umlautization caused the destruction of Western tonality...

Webern before the Second Viennese School was in that vein, nothing resembling his characteristic pointillistic dodecaphonic serialism.
Old 19th August 2019
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
"Triumph of the Will" a straight up documentary?

Then Birth of a Nation is a non racist feel good movie...

No question Triumph of the Will is a monumental work of art, but there's no denying it's an epic demonstration of propaganda, maybe the most powerful one known in history.
As a movie? Yes. It's literally just captured events without comment or voiceover. The definition of documentary in fact. Was it used as propaganda? Sure. But was that her motivation? Not at all.

Birth Of A Nation is a non-analogy here.
Old 19th August 2019
  #40
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
As a movie? Yes. It's literally just captured events without comment or voiceover. The definition of documentary in fact. Was it used as propaganda? Sure. But was that her motivation? Not at all.

Birth Of A Nation is a non-analogy here.
There are somewhat oblique parallels - BOAN, while in the guise of a film, had the effect of propaganda, and its blatantly racist narrative was accepted as fact for the audience it was intended for. It basically allowed for the reemergence and revival of the KKK.

Both it and Triumph were lauded at the times of its releases as revolutionary landmarks in movie making, both in terms of scale and technical innovations. They were also both innocuously accepted as great works of art, without realization of the immediate deleterious impacts it had on humanity.

I don't know what Riefenstahl's motivation was. There seems to be a lot of conjecture as to her complicity and what her motivations were.
Old 19th August 2019
  #41
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I don't know what Riefenstahl's motivation was. There seems to be a lot of conjecture as to her complicity and what her motivations were.
To compare her to someone more recent, in the 80's I spent quite a bit of time around Roger Ailes. He never seemed to believe anything one way or the other. More like he was in it for the paycheck and the gamesmanship in that order. At that point he wasn't so successful that the gamesmanship had moved up to #1 .
Old 19th August 2019
  #42
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Webern before the Second Viennese School was in that vein, nothing resembling his characteristic pointillistic dodecaphonic serialism.
I've never listened to any Webern that wasn't unlistenable.

I joke, but only a bit. Twelve-tone is an interesting tool in the toolbox, but Berg pretty much explored it all with Wozzeck and Lulu, but those are only listenable to me because they are hung off of familiar forms and the off-kilter tonality only highlights the drama of the pieces. I can't think of a Schoenberg or Webern twelve-tone piece that I care for.

Anyways, I'm staying off my own topic here!
Old 19th August 2019
  #43
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
There are somewhat oblique parallels - BOAN, while in the guise of a film, had the effect of propaganda, and its blatantly racist narrative was accepted as fact for the audience it was intended for. It basically allowed for the reemergence and revival of the KKK.

Both it and Triumph were lauded at the times of its releases as revolutionary landmarks in movie making, both in terms of scale and technical innovations. They were also both innocuously accepted as great works of art, without realization of the immediate deleterious impacts it had on humanity.

I don't know what Riefenstahl's motivation was. There seems to be a lot of conjecture as to her complicity and what her motivations were.

BOAN is inextricable from racism. The racism is explicitly contained in the film. In the art itself.

There is no such thing in Riefenstahl's movies. They are simply factual recordings of a phenomenon as it was happening, for good bad or indifferent.

There is no conjecture that Riefenstahl was not a N***. It's a fact, held up by the Tribunals and the many court cases she won for libel.
Old 19th August 2019
  #44
Lives for gear
 
DistortingJack's Avatar
 

I found an amazing video about this topic not long ago.
The guy is famous for other content, and this is partly a video game review, but it's mostly about the presence or absence of the author in any work.

The idea is that art is a communication process, and therefore a lot of the meaning is quite literally created by the audience. This makes some works literally and objectively better and more meaningful for some people, and meaningless for others. It also detaches the concepts, ideas, and thoughts the author used as his paint brushes from the work itself; the narrator is not the author.



Basically, you partly make Wagner's music by listening to it, and if his horribleness isn't specifically imprinted on the work, you cannot infer it from the work itself, in which case, feel free to enjoy it.
Old 19th August 2019
  #45
Lives for gear
 
DistortingJack's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
I've never listened to any Webern that wasn't unlistenable.

I joke, but only a bit. Twelve-tone is an interesting tool in the toolbox, but Berg pretty much explored it all with Wozzeck and Lulu, but those are only listenable to me because they are hung off of familiar forms and the off-kilter tonality only highlights the drama of the pieces. I can't think of a Schoenberg or Webern twelve-tone piece that I care for.

Anyways, I'm staying off my own topic here!
Yeah but his Romantic pieces are absolutely fab

Old 19th August 2019
  #46
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post
Yeah but his Romantic pieces are absolutely fab

Man. I need a mop and bucket after that.
Old 19th August 2019
  #47
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack View Post


Basically, you partly make Wagner's music by listening to it, and if his horribleness isn't specifically imprinted on the work, you cannot infer it from the work itself, in which case, feel free to enjoy it.
Thank you! That was quite fascinating. But it sort of gave voice to my greatest fear: What if something pernicious in encoded into whatever piece of art and not only do I not realize it, it begins to affect my behaviors and beliefs?

Thus, a new can of worms: What if I enjoy an artist and all I know about them is they like knitting with their grandma and volunteering at the puppy and kitty hospital. What if that artist has an Evil™ dark side that nobody has ever experienced?

Thank you, Autism Spectrum Disorder!

Sidenote:
Here's an oldie (read hip 60s groovy) that I've always enjoyed:



It's quite tangential to the topic, but the social criticism always makes me smile.
Old 19th August 2019
  #48
Lives for gear
 
AfterViewer's Avatar
 

Wagner will always have his place :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfTPvFEweU
Old 20th August 2019
  #49
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
Thank you! That was quite fascinating. But it sort of gave voice to my greatest fear: What if something pernicious in encoded into whatever piece of art and not only do I not realize it, it begins to affect my behaviors and beliefs?
It's certainly possible. The line between indoctrination and education (or "thought provoking" or whatever) isn't always clear.

Fortunately it's all possible to discuss so one can hopefully figure out if that's the case.
Old 20th August 2019
  #50
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterViewer View Post
Wagner will always have his place :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfTPvFEweU
A little anemic without the orchestra....;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfprcvuHoG8
Old 20th August 2019
  #51
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterViewer View Post
Wagner will always have his place :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfTPvFEweU
Who can forget, "Kill the Wabbit":


...or, "O Bwunhilde you'w so wuvwy!"
Old 20th August 2019
  #52
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

The name of Arthur Q. Bryan is largely lost to history. But he made some history that day, for sure.
Old 20th August 2019
  #53
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The name of Arthur Q. Bryan is largely lost to history. But he made some history that day, for sure.
I wonder if Arthur and Mel were holding hands during, and kissed afterwards while doing "Bwunhilde".

It's quasi Bradley Cooper/Lady GaGa-esque...you can't fake passion.
Old 20th August 2019
  #54
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...or, "O Bwunhilde you'w so wuvwy!"
To this day, "Yes, I know it. I can't help it." makes me laugh uncontrolably.
Old 20th August 2019
  #55
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
... you can't fake passion.
Actually, I think that's part of the Oldest Profession. At least in the higher echelons.
Old 20th August 2019
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
Thank you! That was quite fascinating. But it sort of gave voice to my greatest fear: What if something pernicious in encoded into whatever piece of art and not only do I not realize it, it begins to affect my behaviors and beliefs?
I've heard theories that perpetuation of equal temperament is a distortion that perpetuates discord in humans. I think it's entirely possible.
Old 20th August 2019
  #57
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
I've heard theories that perpetuation of equal temperament is a distortion that perpetuates discord in humans. I think it's entirely possible.
I haven't heard that before, but it sounds like another good reason to move over to a 19-tet system.
Old 20th August 2019
  #58
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syntonica View Post
I haven't heard that before, but it sounds like another good reason to move over to a 19-tet system.
12 tone equal temperament is the Lingua Franca of tonal temperaments. It's not better or worse per se than any other temperament systems.

There's no reason for other temperaments to not exist. Others do.

There's no better or worse, it just is. For anyone to espouse if any one is better than another for whatever reason, is the height of delusional folly.
Old 20th August 2019
  #59
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
12 tone equal temperament is the Lingua Franca of tonal temperaments. It's not better or worse per se than any other temperament systems.

There's no reason for other temperaments to not exist. Others do.

There's no better or worse, it just is. For anyone to espouse if any one is better than another for whatever reason, is the height of delusional folly.
Haha! Sorry, my comment was meant tongue-in-cheek. I'm trying to work without emoticons lately to force myself to use language to carry sarcasm, jest, etc.

The idea that the use of 12-tet carries some conscious agenda to perpetuate inter-human antagonism sounds as goofy to me as the 432 vs 440 debate. To me, music is about gathering and releasing tension, whether you are creating Sturm und Drang opera, or just making subtly pleasant meditative ambience. In other words, the intrinsic emotions evoked by major, minor, augmented, diminished, etc., are a necessary good of the current 12-tone equal temperament system. I enjoy listening to pieces created in 19-tet as they are as alien as they are familiar. It's a tuning that I'd like to explore someday beyond its Venn diagram overlap with 12-tet. It will need it's own language, I'm sure, to discuss it.

Besides, we should choose a tonal structure that causes discomfort to the reptilians pretending to be human and we should be finding a tuning that resonates within our own personal ear/skull structures.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump