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Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer for Music Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 21st April 2018
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
but, if there are going to be awards as such, that being part of the real world, hopefully adjudication is more egalitarian and fair to all forms of expression, not necessarily just those that fit within either academic or popular criteria, ...
But this seems like allowing any opinions or any anti-intellectual point of view because its just as valid etc. Intelligent design?

Why should we devalue education and real effort with just comparing it to any old stuff that pops up wanting to be considered on the same level.

Its all about rewarding and respecting real effort, hours of study, hours of practice, hours of real education, hours of experience, etc.
Old 21st April 2018
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
But this seems like allowing any opinions or any anti-intellectual point of view because its just as valid etc. Intelligent design?

Why should we devalue education and real effort with just comparing it to any old stuff that pops up wanting to be considered on the same level.

Its all about rewarding and respecting real effort, hours of study, hours of practice, hours of real education, hours of experience, etc.
Real education?

Real effort, hours of study, hours of practice, hours of experience, belive it or not can come by many means, not just what's perceived as 'real' education. There are many roads, as they say.

FYI, I don't have anything against 'real' education, whatever that may be...ultimately, to paraphrase what you succinctly stated earlier - it's just put up or shut up.

Nothing is being devalued, other than your preconceived notions...
Old 21st April 2018
  #183
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Probably no-one should win this prize anymore. All these (anachronistic) ceremonies are about vested interests, press coverage, being edgy, creating controversy, (creating noisy threads on fora) etc. Click bait, ego stroking, just distractions. What real purpose do they serve? Who do they serve?

Go out and practice an instrument or write some music. Let the market decide who is good and who isn't.
Soooo was this your stance prior to Kendrick winning?
Old 21st April 2018
  #184
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12t - wow, you are quite full of yourself and your opinions. David makes an excellent point which you completely blew off. My son worked his ass off for 9 years earning (and I mean that word) a doctorate in music composition and though I have spent over 50 years making and producing music, I can assure you he knows WAY more than I do. There really are not many roads to knowing what he knows about theory, the history of compositional styles and techniques, and the ability to utilize that knowledge to create new music. And while rap may have its contribution to expressing the culture of African Americans, your attempt to validate equivalency rings rather hollow.
Old 21st April 2018
  #185
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
But this seems like allowing any opinions or any anti-intellectual point of view because its just as valid etc. Intelligent design?

Why should we devalue education and real effort with just comparing it to any old stuff that pops up wanting to be considered on the same level.

Its all about rewarding and respecting real effort, hours of study, hours of practice, hours of real education, hours of experience, etc.

But this seems like allowing any opinions or any anti-intellectual point of view because its just as valid etc. Intelligent design?
Music can be intellectualised and has been for centuries, still is, even rap and hip hop- but music is about feeling and emotion,thereby any conversation about music must allow all opinions formed from intuition and instinctive emotional response.




Why should we devalue education and real effort with just comparing it to any old stuff that pops up wanting to be considered on the same level
.

Pulitzer considers the socio-cultural impact of art, it is less possible to constrain the form of influential music to a set of guidelines when society and culture invokes it's taste and preference.
By influencing culture, he is on the same level with any other form that believes itself above any other, or Lamar in particular. I do not believe a successful original artist has ever been able to skip over any learning curve to develop their highest form as an artist. If anything, his journey has probably been one of prolonged periods of trial and error in solitary isolation with only himself to rely upon and with no script to follow to help him turn any corner when he got stuck.



Its all about rewarding and respecting real effort, hours of study, hours of practice, hours of real education, hours of experience, etc.


Only Kendrick Lamar has ever made a Kendrick Lamar record. You'd have to ask him if he thinks he put any real effort into it. You and I have no idea what this artist has lived through to arrive where his creations are distinguished for their undeniable social and cultural impact.
Knowing how hard it can be to fully realise the extraordinary challenge it can be to make anything uniquely remarkable, let alone that best reflects the true intention and vision of the artist, we should all have the decency to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he has walked his miles and overcome his greatest difficulties to present to the world something that can be justlyregarded as significantly having an influence and impact on society and culture. I can listen to Verdi and be blown away just as I can be affected by listening to Lamar. Just finishing a record can be a big job in and of itself. No one rewards any one for hours of practice or hours of "real education" ( wetf that is supposed to mean), all that falls under the heading of " you gotta be this tall to get on the ride", no matter what that is for any particular genre. Everyone gets schooled no matter the classroom.
Old 21st April 2018
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
12t - wow, you are quite full of yourself and your opinions. David makes an excellent point which you completely blew off. My son worked his ass off for 9 years earning (and I mean that word) a doctorate in music composition and though I have spent over 50 years making and producing music, I can assure you he knows WAY more than I do. There really are not many roads to knowing what he knows about theory, the history of compositional styles and techniques, and the ability to utilize that knowledge to create new music. And while rap may have its contribution to expressing the culture of African Americans, your attempt to validate equivalency rings rather hollow.
I have a masters in composition, and I've spent most of my life studying jazz diligently. Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm by no means bereft of knowledge of theory and history of both jazz and classical idioms. Nor such things in many other forms of music through myriad experiences in my life and career.

I can say though, the bulk of what I know, and who I am, was acquired auto-didactically. Blood, sweat and tears.

I can also say, it's not formal training per se that an excellent musician make. I've known plenty of colleagues and professors who despite copious academic training couldn't make real music if their life depended on it.

Not to digress, it's not a matter of validating equivalency - it's judging things by many factors/things, not just accepted status quo means. To pigeonhole what is valid based on CV or what's considered 'real education' is a fools errand. What matters ultimately is the music. What counts the most is the individual: their talent, drive and gumption, and their abilities, no more, no less.

If one is so closed minded to not see the multiplicity of what music is - how it's created, the different forms it encompasses, and all the different ways people have toiled to get to the point of creating things that others are moved by, by whatever means...well, that's on them, in a not good way...
Old 21st April 2018
  #187
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
12t - wow, you are quite full of yourself and your opinions. David makes an excellent point which you completely blew off. My son worked his ass off for 9 years earning (and I mean that word) a doctorate in music composition and though I have spent over 50 years making and producing music, I can assure you he knows WAY more than I do. There really are not many roads to knowing what he knows about theory, the history of compositional styles and techniques, and the ability to utilize that knowledge to create new music. And while rap may have its contribution to expressing the culture of African Americans, your attempt to validate equivalency rings rather hollow.
A reminder that the point of a discussion forum is to discuss. If you can’t handle people having differing opinions, don’t post! There’s no need to insult others. Please. Amazingly this thread is actually staying mostly “legal”...let’s not degenerate it into name calling!
Old 21st April 2018
  #188
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
My son worked his ass off for 9 years earning (and I mean that word) a doctorate in music composition and though I have spent over 50 years making and producing music, I can assure you he knows WAY more than I do. There really are not many roads to knowing what he knows about theory, the history of compositional styles and techniques, and the ability to utilize that knowledge to create new music. And while rap may have its contribution to expressing the culture of African Americans, your attempt to validate equivalency rings rather hollow.
My son worked his ass off for 9 years earning (and I mean that word) a doctorate in music composition and though I have spent over 50 years making and producing music, I can assure you he knows WAY more than I do

The language of music comes easier to some than it does for others.. Without knowing what you have been able to do with music in your 50+ years, this statement does not really have any bearing on the point you are trying to make. It's a very priggish statement void of any real substance .

The 10 years your boy spent sitting in a classroom learning other peoples music is about equal time Lamar would have spent realising living and creating his own original music. I would guess Lamar knows way more than your son and yourself put together about getting his music heard and positioning it to have influence in the world and your son would probably agree.


And while rap may have its contribution to expressing the culture of African Americans, your attempt to validate equivalency rings rather hollow
Nothing rings more hollow than your high browed attempt to diminish an educated thoughtful perspective on music that is broader and more in touch than your close minded narrow understanding of popular culture and the influence modern music makers have on the now. There is no " may" have contributed culture, it is one of the widely appreciated forms of music today.
You don't respect that Lamar' outcome is heralded as culturally significant because you don't respect the craft form and condition of hip hop/rap. You sound like an <ommited noun> wrongly insinuating rap and hip hop only expresses to for and of African American culture.
Working class poverty, gentrification et al means that a whole lot of people of every colour and walk of life can relate to the African American experience portrayed in music, vicariously and literally and any music you mistakenly label as talking only to a particular demographic shows how little understanding of music' influence you have mustered in your 50+ years. You have a lot to learn, maybe go live outside your comfort zone for a bit and have a think about how poisonous your perspective is to others, and any music you make. No wonder you can't cope with the here and now.

Last edited by GeneHall; 21st April 2018 at 02:07 AM.. Reason: omitted the word racist
Old 21st April 2018
  #189
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Check out the music of Little Walter. Chicago blues harmonica, grew up on the street, died from bar fights.
Old 21st April 2018
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Check out the music of Little Walter. Chicago blues harmonica, grew up on the street, died from bar fights.
Did he get into any gun fights in Paris like Sidney Bechet did?

BTW, there's plenty of his music to check out, including the world's first one man band overdub recordings.
Old 21st April 2018
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
the multiplicity of what music is - how it's created, the different forms it encompasses, and all the different ways people have toiled
good point 12t, education is not easily definable

think about how flamenco originated for example
Old 21st April 2018
  #192
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12t - I respect your response, and it was already clear to me from several of your previous comments that you have a comprehensive knowledge of many aspects of music and its history. You are quite capable of making your point without disparaging other participants.

Gene - let me buy you a shot of tequila. In the end, we are all here because we love music, its creation, and its production. I am certain you and I could find lots of common ground.
Old 21st April 2018
  #193
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jnorman's Avatar
This is perhaps the most stimulating and interesting thread I have ever seen on GS...
Old 21st April 2018
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
This is perhaps the most stimulating and interesting thread I have ever seen on GS...
what kind of cables do you use
Old 21st April 2018
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I'm texting from my phone and I tend to take a shorthand approach to what I'd fully explain if I was at my computer. In what circles was a rhetorical question to ask why we deem certain circles as authorities.
I got your larger point I just dodged it since it opens a whole 'nother can of worms lol.

But yes your general point about the ultimate underlying subjectivity of EVERYTHING "art" is true. And what's culturally considered "great art" is ultimately just people agreeing to call it that for whatever agreed upon reasons and qualifiers they come up with. There's objectiveness to the technicality/science/skill/craft involved in creating something, but not to the core essense of what makes something "great art."
Old 21st April 2018
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneHall View Post
The points made that rap and hip hop have a constant repetitive beat and minimalist musical phrase underneath it's lyric, how fundamentally so different is that to an Irish jig or folk/traditional music from any corner of the world?
Don't beat me up, but I feel like it is an odd comparison, hip hop and
Irish jig.

Irish jig is an acoustically balanced music based in melody.

Hip hop is usually computer beats with rythmic talking, often played at a volume
level which could damage your hearing or at least make you want to leave the club
in a hurry.

By the way, is that the same Hanging Rock, where you live, as in Picnic at
Hanging Rock.
Old 21st April 2018
  #197
f33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Also, it seems to me to have a rigidly imposed minimum of poetic and musical elements.
thats the beauty of it
Old 21st April 2018
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Check out the music of Little Walter. Chicago blues harmonica, grew up on the street, died from bar fights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Did he get into any gun fights in Paris like Sidney Bechet did?

BTW, there's plenty of his music to check out, including the world's first one man band overdub recordings.
And while we’re at it check out the works and history of Hoodie “Leadbelly” Leadbetter....
Old 21st April 2018
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
This is perhaps the most stimulating and interesting thread I have ever seen on GS...
For sure...

Just curious, but Had you listened to Kendrick Lamar’s DAMN before starting the thread?

Last edited by Samc; 21st April 2018 at 07:21 AM..
Old 21st April 2018
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f33 View Post
thats the beauty of it
Exactly...not being technically complicated enough is one of the main put downs when trying to denigrate certain musical styles, not recognizing how difficult it is to transmit complex emotions in a stripped down, non complex form.

How well and effectively can you tell a story in three minutes over a repetitive beat, and in simple words so that it’s emotional content is felt by all kinds of listeners regardless of their background.

It’s all part of being open enough to accept things for what they are instead of bemoaning what they’re not.
Old 21st April 2018
  #201
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Don't beat me up, but I feel like it is an odd comparison, hip hop and
Irish jig.

Irish jig is an acoustically balanced music based in melody.

Hip hop is usually computer beats with rythmic talking, often played at a volume
level which could damage your hearing or at least make you want to leave the club
in a hurry.
.
Don't beat me up, but I feel like it is an odd comparison, hip hop and
Irish jig.


It's ok to see it as odd, Irish jig is also equally percussive. My point was that a driving beat and repetitive musical phrasing is nothing new. Much of the lyrical content of Irish jig music could also be seen as rythmic poetry of hardship and loss etc etc.



Hip hop is usually computer beats with rythmic talking, often played at a volume
level which could damage your hearing or at least make you want to leave the club
in a hurry.


Nothing drives me out of a club or venue faster than badly performed music, even if it is played at low to moderate levels, or cover bands no matter how good they are musically, the insincerity of it all feels like a waste of my time. I almost always carry my own earplugs in the event volumes impose a threat to my hearing.


Hanging Rock

We have a state park nearby where folks do picnic ( I think), yes. Just north of Melbourne. Seems to be home to a large pocket of fellow Americans and musicians scattered throughout the area.
Old 21st April 2018
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
I am certain you and I could find lots of common ground.
Probably, my musical background started in British garage bands and moved through to a few years of classical training and music composition and most points in between.
I even braved a jazz band once. After a very rough rehearsal the band leader came over to me, gave me 20 bucks and suggested I take some lessons and study up on what jazz was. I rate that humiliating experience as being equal to two semesters at university for what I got out of it!
What discouraged me from spending too much time in academia was the obvious snobbery towards other types of music that was infused into the curriculum by people who obviously had little to no life experience.
So we share a language we can communicate in when words inevitably fail us (all), as they always do.
Rap and hip hop qualify to the form and condition of music in my opinion. Pulitzer ratifying DAMN with an award hopefully lends something to the society of music and music makers from all walks where we can one day stop questioning it's qualification as music. imo
Old 21st April 2018
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneHall View Post

Hanging Rock

We have a state park nearby where folks do picnic ( I think), yes. Just north of Melbourne. Seems to be home to a large pocket of fellow Americans and musicians scattered throughout the area.
Picnic at Hanging Rock: classic Australian (mystery book and) film, highly
recommended.
Old 21st April 2018
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Kendrick is more innovative than Corigliano.
And Nas is a much better lyricist and story-teller than Lamar.

Anyone care to argue?

People either forget, or just don't know...
Old 21st April 2018
  #205
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
And Nas is a much better lyricist and story-teller than Lamar.

Anyone care to argue?

People either forget, or just don't know...
It is a fact, you are right.

correct me if I'm wrong but I think this prize is given yearly and Nasir Jones havent released an album in the last 3 years!??
Old 21st April 2018
  #206
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
And Nas is a much better lyricist and story-teller than Lamar.

Anyone care to argue?

People either forget, or just don't know...
Why would anyone care to argue vs your opinion?
Old 21st April 2018
  #207
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
I got your larger point I just dodged it since it opens a whole 'nother can of worms lol.

But yes your general point about the ultimate underlying subjectivity of EVERYTHING "art" is true. And what's culturally considered "great art" is ultimately just people agreeing to call it that for whatever agreed upon reasons and qualifiers they come up with. There's objectiveness to the technicality/science/skill/craft involved in creating something, but not to the core essense of what makes something "great art."
I don't want to open that other can since we can't fully discuss it without political history, which isn't allowed on this site.

But I will say that I think To pimp a butterfly was more worthy, and it's telling that they'd choose this one now. What they choose makes history ultimately. 50 years from now, when people look at all of the Pulitzer winners, they won't get to hear his best effort.

Look at the Oscar awarded for 3-6 mafia "It's hard out che for a pimp"

How the heck can that reasonably be justified?
Old 21st April 2018
  #208
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so, anyway, er....what microphone, mic preamp and other signal chain components were most likely used to record the string of KL's hits ?
Old 21st April 2018
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
so, anyway, er....what microphone, mic preamp and other signal chain components were most likely used to record the string of KL's hits ?
LDC for sure. With his budget, probably vintage. But what sort of preamp? And the real 'secret sauce' would be the plug-ins...and why does this feel like thread drift?

Seriously though, we don't get a lot about rap production over here in Remote Possibilities - I suspect all the action is over on the Rap + Hip Hop engineering and production forum - so maybe some of the gurus will enlighten us dowdy old jazz and classical types. What gear did Kendrick Lamar use? This thread has been a real learning experience for me; why stop now?
Old 21st April 2018
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
But I will say that I think To pimp a butterfly was more worthy, and it's telling that they'd choose this one now. What they choose makes history ultimately. 50 years from now, when people look at all of the Pulitzer winners, they won't get to hear his best effort.
It’s not like they were waiting to give him an award and when DAMN dropped they decided it was his best work...in fact, this award says nothing about his previous or his future work. All it says is that of all the eligible albums for 2018 the jury chose DAMN...

When the other record was eligible they chose something else and when DAMN is eligible they chose it over the other candidates. I’m also going to suggest that since he’s young and growing as an artist it might be too early to declare “To Pimp A Butterfly” his “best” work. But...why won’t they get to hear his other albums 50 years from now?
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