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Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer for Music Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 20th April 2018
  #151
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I just say, have an open mind, and learn and enjoy as much as you can, in an honest and sincere way...
I do, and the older I get ,the more I question my ability to learn and discover which always lead me to redifine my point of view based on the interest I've put into something.

On the other hand its also a lot easier for me to say that I dont know what I'm talking about so therefor my opinion is completely invalid.

I guess thats called maturity and I think thats how I perceive those opinion when they come accross based on 5 youtube videos
Old 20th April 2018
  #152
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Not liking a piece of art is one thing but to basically criticize the the genre from a position of ignorance is something else. It’s very obvious that the biggest critics are the people who know the least about genre, and it’s also clear that they have no intention of learning more about it. But I guess if you keep repeating the same thing over and over regardless of how wrong it is will make it right eventually.
Old 20th April 2018
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
never ending 2 bar loop made of cheap sound with machist and violence related lyrics vomited by an over confident goon
funny! when I first read it I thought it said machinist !
Old 20th April 2018
  #154
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It is not bad advice for people to do what they know, or play what they know, or write what they know. If one does not know firsthand of persistent racial discrimination or lethal violence or poverty or sexual abuse etc. then it does not make sense to build a musical career around these issues. If one does not know of what they speak they cannot speak the truth. Real rap is poetry and a poet can only speak the truth. Poets do not speak from ignorance. Of course pretenders can still make money, and a very few can make a whole lot of money.
Old 20th April 2018
  #155
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
...While listening I was reminded that a lot of this is not really music but more of a poetry slam to simple beats. I was reminded that before rap became big it was this aspect that had appeal for me. In my opinion rap and hip hop could stand getting closer to a poetry slam...
This has always been my take on Rap too. From my perspective, as an older white male who attempts to be open-minded, Rap sounds less than musical because it really is a spoken word art form. The use of meter and rhyme makes it more akin to Shakespeare's sonnets than a song. This does not decrease its merit in any way; it just makes appreciation of it a different experience. Other aspects of Hip Hop culture, such as DJ-ing or scratch, are, to my mind, more musical because they can utilize melody, sampling, song story, etc. Given that we are discussing this year's Pulitzer Prize in Music, isn't it appropriate to ask instead whether Kendrick Lamar should have been presented with a Pulitzer Special Citation or award for his work, like Bob Dylan, John Coltrane et al., instead of the music prize ?

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 20th April 2018 at 07:34 PM.. Reason: clarification
Old 20th April 2018
  #156
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

A short time ago only negative images of black people were allowed in media forms, then later black music was labeled race music, and later MTV didn't play any black music videos. Nobody questioned what entities made these decisions, or what gave them the authority to make decisions, but we know the decisions were made

Today we proceed as if similar entities of authority don't exist and similar decisions aren't made.

Stereotypes don't just come from thin air. If I gave you an Intro to Psych class and we discussed Positive and Negative reinforcement, I'd likely cover behavioral Psych and Skinner's experiments with rats to condition them to certain behaviors. Most people probably know the experiments. He starved Rats and put them in a box. To condition them to "positive behaviors", he'd feed them. if they behaved negatively, he'd give an electric shock.

On the surface the experiments don't mean much until you question whether the role we play in society is that of the experimenter, or that of the rat.

What makes the Pulitzer special to our society? Who's authority? Some people seem conditioned to suggest Kendrick got the award because racial reasons

Do these same people question whether there are racial reasons they hold the Pulitzer in high regard?

Are you being conditioned? Are you immune to conditioning? Have you ever decided you wanted an impulse item near the checkout in a grocery store, that you didn't want until you saw it?
Old 20th April 2018
  #157
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boombapdame's Avatar
@Martel80 P couldn't have been a literal goon as if he were he wouldn't have had any business savvy and many of the music business's higher ups are degreed.
Old 20th April 2018
  #158
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boombapdame's Avatar
@IM WHO YOU THINK I swear we think along the same lines.
Old 20th April 2018
  #159
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
This has always been my take on Rap too. From my perspective, as an older white male who attempts to be open-minded, Rap sounds less than musical because it really is a spoken word art form. The use of meter and rhyme makes it more akin to Shakespeare's sonnets than a song. This does not decrease its merit in any way; it just makes appreciation of it a different experience. Other aspects of Hip Hop culture, such as DJ-ing or scratch, are, to my mind, more musical because they can utilize melody, sampling, song story, etc. Given that we are discussing this year's Pulitzer Prize in Music, isn't it appropriate to ask instead whether Kendrick Lamar should have been presented with a Pulitzer Special Citation or award for his work, like Bob Dylan, John Coltrane et al. ?
It is true that in rap there is no notes on the vocals ( well actually we all have note when we use our vocal folds ) but what we notice the most is the tone and rhythm , like you would differentiate a bad loose drummer to a very tight one. And like in a drummer, not only we notice the tone and emotion in his instrument but also the swing of their vocal pattern. We usually refer to that as ''flow'' or ''delivery''. Some of them use this aspect like Usain Bolt would run the 100 meters. Listen to Busta Rhymes - Gimme Some more for example


Some others really goes in an infinite drum solo like only a very initiate to the genre would understand the pattern. I have no example out of my head. Maybe Rockness monsta from Heltah Skeltah ? ( 2nd rapper ( the tall skinny guy ))


Like you can see, its not always all the rapper that take themself seriously. They also have a very nice way of mocking themself. Sometime its very light hearted almost like a Marvel episode

A last one for my mullet friends



'' SO WHAT I WET THE BED''
Old 20th April 2018
  #160
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@Martel80 P couldn't have been a literal goon as if he were he wouldn't have had any business savvy and many of the music business's higher ups are degreed.
I know that, I was talking about the character, not the private life person.
Old 20th April 2018
  #161
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

MARION'S VOICE:
(Hoarsely, sweetly rising to her throat.) "O! Weeshwashtkissima pooishthnapoohuck!"
BLOOM:
(His eyes wildly dilated, clasps himself.) "Show! Hide! Show! Plough her! More! Shoot!"

(James Joyce, Ulysses)

Girl, I can buy yo' ass the world with my paystub
Ooh, that pussy good, won't you sit it on my taste bloods?

(Kendrick Lamar)

Given that the former is important literature, I assume the latter is also.

I'm glad I studied electrical engineering instead of literature
Old 20th April 2018
  #162
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
MARION'S VOICE:
(Hoarsely, sweetly rising to her throat.) "O! Weeshwashtkissima pooishthnapoohuck!"
BLOOM:
(His eyes wildly dilated, clasps himself.) "Show! Hide! Show! Plough her! More! Shoot!"

(James Joyce, Ulysses)

Girl, I can buy yo' ass the world with my paystub
Ooh, that pussy good, won't you sit it on my taste bloods?

(Kendrick Lamar)

Given that the former is important literature, I assume the latter is also.

I'm glad I studied electrical engineering instead of literature


Waow, just as we were speaking about ''this forum, some of the innate ignorance, stereotypes, closed-mindedness and prejudices about non rock/pop or funk/R&B/hip hop are displayed across the spectrum.''

Talk about a way to put a sentence out of context.

<snip - NO POLITICS!!!>

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st April 2018 at 01:52 AM..
Old 20th April 2018
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post


Waow, just as we were speaking about ''this forum, some of the innate ignorance, stereotypes, closed-mindedness and prejudices about non rock/pop or funk/R&B/hip hop are displayed across the spectrum.''

Talk about a way to put a sentence out of context.
1. you missed the joke

2. he was elevating rap vocals by the comparison, humorously

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st April 2018 at 01:52 AM..
Old 20th April 2018
  #164
I dont see any joke here @newguy1

Both are saying the same thing and both are equally vulgar.
We're discussing in a thread about a questionable highest recognition for their artform.
Whats the joke about when we quote the worst out of their repertoire ?
Old 20th April 2018
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
I dont see any joke here @newguy1

Both are saying the same thing and both are equally vulgar.
We're discussing in a thread about a questionable highest recognition for their artform.
Whats the joke about when we quote the worst out of their repertoire ?
He's using humor to make the point that graphic sex is a part of artistic tradition all the way to what's considered the best novel in the English language, and singling it out is not a reason to discount something's artistic merit. Is Scorsese's "Casino" ruined or unartistic because Pesci likes to get blowies from hookers? No. You're in agreement with each other.
Old 20th April 2018
  #166
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
1. you missed the joke

2. he was elevating rap vocals by the comparison, humorously
Thank you, yes. I was not commenting on the merits of either example. I was satirizing previous posts essentially saying "look at the lyrics , they're crap." The point was simply that equally simplistic and rude statements have qualified as part of a work of great literature if the name of the author is James Joyce.

Therefore, why should they be a disqualifier if the name of the author is Kendrick Lamar?
Old 20th April 2018
  #167
I am not a judge and therefor my opinion value is close to inexistant but I personaly dont value vulgarity as part of a great artform. Thats just my opinion and I would have said the same thing at the toilet bowl test.

Isnt it a trait of lack of vocabulary or knowledge of emotion and self anyways?

I do understand both your point but theres absolutely no need to point their need to catch the lower third of population attention to credit nor discredit them.

Fawk, I feel like a scumbag elitist while writing this.

I'm out.
Old 20th April 2018
  #168
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
I

Fawk, I feel like a scumbag elitist while writing this.

I'm out.
I get that feeling too sometimes.

I was born in a a back bedroom in a government housing project and and left school when I was 16. Every time I write a sentence in my current job such as:

Unlike the scenario where new evidence is discovered after a final decision, defendant is in no way prevented or disadvantaged in utilizing the new evidence to actively defend the ongoing suit. Hence, the denial of his motion for new trial does not represent a final order or substantive decision on the merits of the case

I look at it and think "Hence?" WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY BODY?
Old 20th April 2018
  #169
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
He's using humor to make the point that graphic sex is a part of artistic tradition all the way to what's considered the best novel in the English language, and singling it out is not a reason to discount something's artistic merit. Is Scorsese's "Casino" ruined or unartistic because Pesci likes to get blowies from hookers? No. You're in agreement with each other.
Considered the best novel in the English language in which circle, and what gives that circle authority to define which piece of work is best?


I agree with your point.
Old 20th April 2018
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Considered the best novel in the English language in which circle, and what gives that circle authority to define which piece of work is best?
Many circles for many reasons (which are google-able,and I'm sure you can find plenty of debate, and critiques, and critiques of critiques, and the guy saying "this book SUCKS" etc etc)

I don't care specifically, i've never read the book never care to, doesn't really matter. . .

Just this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
I agree with your point.
and was actually @norfolk martin point, i just ended up the humor translator lol
Old 20th April 2018
  #171
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For those who don't understand Joyce, then buy annotated versions. Annotations are no substitutes for experience and knowledge, but they can at least clue-in most of us who otherwise would have little clue as to what he is trying to communicate.
Old 20th April 2018
  #172
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Many circles for many reasons (which are google-able,and I'm sure you can find plenty of debate, and critiques, and critiques of critiques, and the guy saying "this book SUCKS" etc etc)

I don't care specifically, i've never read the book never care to, doesn't really matter. . .

Just this:



and was actually @norfolk martin point, i just ended up the humor translator lol
Perhaps I didn't make my point clear. I'm texting from my phone and I tend to take a shorthand approach to what I'd fully explain if I was at my computer. In what circles was a rhetorical question to ask why we deem certain circles as authorities.
Old 20th April 2018
  #173
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
MARION'S VOICE:
(Hoarsely, sweetly rising to her throat.) "O! Weeshwashtkissima pooishthnapoohuck!"
BLOOM:
(His eyes wildly dilated, clasps himself.) "Show! Hide! Show! Plough her! More! Shoot!"

(James Joyce, Ulysses)
You sure that ain't Conor McGregor?
Old 20th April 2018
  #174
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All I know is that all the works of art we call great today was considered BS at some point in the past by people who wanted to define “good art”....go figure.

My grandmother is probably turning in her grave now.
Old 20th April 2018
  #175
What about we get back to some sort of the subject guys.

Who do you PERSONALLY think should have been awarded for this Music Pulitzer award for this year realization?

It doesnt imply you hold the truth or anything.

Send some music videos / link to listen to what you consider the greatest piece of music this year.
Old 20th April 2018
  #176
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
What about we get back to some sort of the subject guys.

Who do you PERSONALLY think should have been awarded for this Music Pulitzer award for this year realization?

It doesnt imply you hold the truth or anything.

Send some music videos / link to listen to what you consider the greatest piece of music this year.
Dude, no need to start moving goalposts...

in the 60 year history of the music Pulitzer, other than 3 jazz awards - Wynton, Ornette and Henry Threadgill, all the rest with a few exceptions were academic classical compositions. Just lame, non cutting edge sh=t even within those genres.

Let's just celebrate that a barrier was broken, and not fight amongst ourselves...what happened was a good thing.

Don't obfuscate the moment and noteworthiness of it all...
Old 21st April 2018
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Don't obfuscate the moment and noteworthiness of it all...
Probably no-one should win this prize anymore. All these (anachronistic) ceremonies are about vested interests, press coverage, being edgy, creating controversy, (creating noisy threads on fora) etc. Click bait, ego stroking, just distractions. What real purpose do they serve? Who do they serve?

Go out and practice an instrument or write some music. Let the market decide who is good and who isn't.
Old 21st April 2018
  #178
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Probably no-one should win this prize anymore. All these (anachronistic) ceremonies are about vested interests, press coverage, being edgy, creating controversy, (creating noisy threads on fora) etc. Click bait, ego stroking, just distractions. What real purpose do they serve? Who do they serve?

Go out and practice an instrument or write some music. Let the market decide who is good and who isn't.
You have a valid point...

but, if there are going to be awards as such, that being part of the real world, hopefully adjudication is more egalitarian and fair to all forms of expression, not necessarily just those that fit within either academic or popular criteria, whichever applies to said awards. If ever there were a 'rigged' system...Kendrick at least broke a certain glass ceiling.

Wishful thinking, I know...
Old 21st April 2018
  #179
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Dude, no need to start moving goalposts...

in the 60 year history of the music Pulitzer, other than 3 jazz awards - Wynton, Ornette and Henry Threadgill, all the rest with a few exceptions were academic classical compositions. Just lame, non cutting edge sh=t even within those genres.

Let's just celebrate that a barrier was broken, and not fight amongst ourselves...what happened was a good thing.

Don't obfuscate the moment and noteworthiness of it all...
It was not my intention sir.

I think the post following this exact post I quoted is exactly what I meant.

It is a very good thing but in my opinion a pretty bad choice in time and subject to underline what rap is.

That is my opinion and I believe everyone understood it by now.

Lets just celebrate the pete rock, premier, No ID Nasir Jones and aesop rock of this world to not have created something based on a thrend but on pure creation out of almost nothing in their respective manner.

With all due respect to Kendrick ( because hes a GREAT lyricist ) it was about time he realize he didnt need to lick balls to get recognition.
Old 21st April 2018
  #180
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Given that we are discussing this year's Pulitzer Prize in Music, isn't it appropriate to ask instead whether Kendrick Lamar should have been presented with a Pulitzer Special Citation or award for his work, like Bob Dylan, John Coltrane et al., instead of the music prize ?
Just my opinion here but I think that like any award, the primary motivation and objective of any award is to align itself with what it considers to be both socially and culturally relevant , for it's own benefit above all.
Pulitzer has more to be gained by associating itself with Mr Lamar's work than he does of it.
I doubt seriously that Kendrick Lamar gave one thought to a Pulitzer consideration while making DAMN, probably frustratingly insulting and injuriously to those that would go to great length to lobby favour with Pulitzer to recognise their own genius in some more traditionally highly regarded form of ancient music. People who make music because they can probably think about awards and such far more than those who make music because it is who they are.

Debating the musical merit of his award kind of misses the point. Poetry is the lead instrument in the same way guitar virtuosity is the lead element of classic rock, or production is the lead element of modern pop.
Often I hear the artist' intentions in a rap production much clearer than I can in a modern pop production, though I have a granular [at best] understanding of both styles.
The points made that rap and hip hop have a constant repetitive beat and minimalist musical phrase underneath it's lyric, how fundamentally so different is that to an Irish jig or folk/traditional music from any corner of the world? Repetitive musical cycles lends itself to the tension/urgency of the lyric in all those forms of music.

Some are debating rather highhandedly and sanctimoniously that rap or hip hop falls short of any serious consideration as musical, in terms of a Pulitzer prize.
I think those people choose to miss the point to accommodate their own experience and are not accounting for their bias and personal assertion of what is music or musical.
Just because something is less relate-able to one person shouldn't discount it's profundity to those that can relate or open themselves it's influence on society , contribution to culture.
Any of us are free to create our own award and insert our own bias/opinion/taste/results of political lobbying/networking as we choose to nominate a winner.
If that choice is aligned with societies own decision about what reflects it's cultural state, then that is great for the award's branding effort to shore up it's profile and relevance.
Pulitzer choosing to award Kendrick Lamar shows how very good Pulitzer is at maintaining it's prestigious status and to me, chose well to align itself with an extraordinary stand out artist who is socially and culturally instep with the now. Great for him, still better for Pulitzer.
IMO.
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