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Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer for Music Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 19th April 2018
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
It's hard to speak objectively about music and image embraced by mass culture.
Why? Nobody seem to have this problem when talking about the Beetles...

Quote:
I feel that the repetitous vibe and ghetto image of rap and hip hop was invented a long time ago in the Miles Davis masterpiece "On the Corner" when it was not fashionable, and that the violence, suffering, original use of language and simplicity of rap and hip hop cannot stand up to the writing of Amos Tutuola.
Is it a competition...why can't everybody's work stand on its own and just measured by how it affects us. Is Bob Marley 'better than' Bob Dylan and how do both stack up against David?

People are pulling names out of the sky and claiming that rappers are not as good as them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
As a white person, what I don't understand about hip hop is that it seems to me to be based in a negative racial stereotype or derogatory image of black culture. I feel like it insults (and creates a negative caricature of) black people. Also, it seems to me to have a rigidly imposed minimum of poetic and musical elements.
Might I suggest you listen to a wider selection of artists and music...there are tons of good stuff out there that are as far away from the stereotypes you talk about as can be. The fact of the matter is that some of the biggest rap songs ever do NOT fit this made up stereotype.
Old 19th April 2018
  #122
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GeneHall's Avatar
Just read this entire thread with my interest growing with each and every post, regardless of whether or not I feel aligned with any particular response.
Congratulations to you all for contributing to one of the finer threads I have ever read on GS.
Old 19th April 2018
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Are you implying that the image of hip hop is controlled by white culture, for white profit, or am I totally misinterpreting your question?
I asked a question. Why are you looking for something to be implied? You made a statement about what you didn't get "as a white person" and I asked your opinion to get you to elaborate on what you thought.

There's nothing implied by me in your view point.
Ok, fair enough. I'm not too sure, but I think of it as being created by the artists esthetic and social point of view, combined with the artists idea of what is sellable, while under the influence of peer pressure and mass culture. Let me know how you would answer the question.
Old 20th April 2018
  #124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Now that you mention it, you should see the documentary Hip Hop Evolution on Netflix, because despite the amount of money some rappers earn there are people who have never stood behind a mic earning a lot more than the rappers.
Welcome in the music business
Old 20th April 2018
  #125
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Ok, fair enough. I'm not too sure, but I think of it as being created by the artists esthetic and social point of view, combined with the artists idea of what is sellable, while under the influence of peer pressure and mass culture. Let me know how you would answer the question.
I'd say that you're just as informed as someone that think she need a breast implant to make it in pop music.

This is completely judgemental and based on ignorance and I'm not pointing my finger at you because this exact opinion that you just shared is the most popular opinion ive always heard about rap.

People really fail to understand that its a culture. There's comedian playing gangsters ( like you said because its whats those 13 y/o wiggers think is rap ) and then theres a culture similar to Jazz,not too loud to the masses but loud enough for the open ears, people press vinyl since before the 90's we dig for new guys, share some new ideas, grow together.

There's a lot more to this music then a format.
Old 20th April 2018
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Ok, fair enough. I'm not too sure, but I think of it as being created by the artists esthetic and social point of view, combined with the artists idea of what is sellable, while under the influence of peer pressure and mass culture. Let me know how you would answer the question.
I'd say that you're just as informed as someone that think she need a breast implant to make it in pop music.

This is completely judgemental and based on ignorance and I'm not pointing my finger at you because this exact opinion that you just shared is the most popular opinion ive always heard about rap.

People really fail to understand that its a culture. There's comedian playing gangsters ( like you said because its whats those 13 y/o wiggers think is rap ) and then theres a culture similar to Jazz,not too loud to the masses but loud enough for the open ears, people press vinyl since before the 90's we dig for new guys, share some new ideas, grow together.

There's a lot more to this music then a format.
The question is difficult to answer accurately, with the complexity of modern culture and variety of people.
From what you said it sounds like you're not too impressed with mainstream rap.
Old 20th April 2018
  #127
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jnorman's Avatar
Inre: “People really fail to understand that its a culture...”

I think perhaps part of what Aracu is saying, is that if that is truly the culture, it seems quite sad, and it might be better for young people to try and change it rather than glorify or reinforce it.
Old 20th April 2018
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Inre: “People really fail to understand that its a culture...”

I think perhaps part of what Aracu is saying, is that if that is truly the culture, it seems quite sad, and it might be better for young people to try and change it rather than glorify or reinforce it.
The premise is that glorifying violence is all that rap does is wrong, and despite how many times some people have said differently some of you keep repeating the same falsehood over and over.

Every aspect of life is covered in rap music, crime and violence is just one aspect...rap songs also cover topics like family, peace and love, politics, education, loss, racism, police brutality, partying/celebration and the trials and tribulations of life.

This line of argument covers one negative stereotype and is a dead end because it is false, broaden your knowledge by listening for yourselves and you'll notice that most rap songs do not glorify crime and violence. you might also notice that many songs that do talk about crime and violence do so in a documentary manner.
Old 20th April 2018
  #129
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Hip hop and rap might be less a culture and rapidly becoming more of a genre....alongside a conduit or platform for highlighting the concerns of living as an African-American in the US today.

The latter is good and important, but I don't think it needs the increasingly-cliched genre of hip hop to be its only mouthpiece.

This style of music is rapidly becoming boxed in to the concerns it addresses, and if gang violence and demeaning behaviour towards women are the entry-ticket check-boxes for 'content', then it's headed for increasing irrelevance, or shelf in the music museum.

Jimmy Cliff's ultimately doomed outlaw character in "The Harder they Come" seems to be the template...which is a pretty depressing roadmap/cliché for a musical genre to aspire to

However Samc makes some good points about the diversity of concerns addressed...which shows a flowering maturity of the form...I guess it's up to the individual listener to discern between the posturing attention seeker (who'll shamelessly exploit those 'entry ticket' aspects) and the learned songwriter who wants to break the stereotypes.

Maybe it's a bit like the evolution of the Blues...everyone wants to sing about them, but few want to experience them first hand !
Old 20th April 2018
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
The premise is that glorifying violence is all that rap does is wrong, and despite how many times some people have said differently some of you keep repeating the same falsehood over and over.

Every aspect of life is covered in rap music, crime and violence is just one aspect...rap songs also cover topics like family, peace and love, politics, education, loss, racism, police brutality, partying/celebration and the trials and tribulations of life.

This line of argument covers one negative stereotype and is a dead end because it is false, broaden your knowledge by listening for yourselves and you'll notice that most rap songs do not glorify crime and violence. you might also notice that many songs that do talk about crime and violence do so in a documentary manner.
I believe you... and I admit that I have no special insight into it, and in any case I'm not against violence expressed in art (for extreme violence in art check out Amos Tutuola: "Palm Wine Drinkard"). My complaints are not based so much on the stories contained in the music, which I have not studied, but are coming more from a reaction to music in general without much change in dynamics (often played loudly), with a constant numbing beat, and without much contrast in harmony or rythm. I understand that for a lot of people, the music elements are secondary to the word-based stories contained in the music. I can relate more easily to music which tells a story without having to follow a word - based story, and in which there are fewer restrictions placed on what the music can do.
Old 20th April 2018
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I believe you... and I admit that I have no special insight into it, and in any case I'm not against violence expressed in art (for extreme violence in art check out Amos Tutuola: "Palm Wine Drinkard"). My complaints are not based so much on the stories contained in the music, which I have not studied, but are coming more from a reaction to music in general without much change in dynamics (often played loudly), with a constant numbing beat, and without much contrast in harmony or rythm. I understand that for a lot of people, the music elements are secondary to the word-based stories contained in the music. I can relate more easily to music which tells a story without having to follow a word - based story, and in which there are fewer restrictions placed on what the music can do.
I hear you, but please remember that as with all forms of art we should just take things for what they are (or not) instead of complaining about what they’re not and the fact that they don’t fit neatly into our personal ‘nice’ box.

I do urge you to dig deeper into the deep catalog of rap music to experience what’s there...I’m sure you’ll be surprised by the diversity and talent of some of the music and artists respectively.
Old 20th April 2018
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Hip hop and rap might be less a culture and rapidly becoming more of a genre....alongside a conduit or platform for highlighting the concerns of living as an African-American in the US today.

The latter is good and important, but I don't think it needs the increasingly-cliched genre of hip hop to be its only mouthpiece.

This style of music is rapidly becoming boxed in to the concerns it addresses, and if gang violence and demeaning behaviour towards women are the entry-ticket check-boxes for 'content', then it's headed for increasing irrelevance, or shelf in the music museum.

Jimmy Cliff's ultimately doomed outlaw character in "The Harder they Come" seems to be the template...which is a pretty depressing roadmap/cliché for a musical genre to aspire to

However Samc makes some good points about the diversity of concerns addressed...which shows a flowering maturity of the form...I guess it's up to the individual listener to discern between the posturing attention seeker (who'll shamelessly exploit those 'entry ticket' aspects) and the learned songwriter who wants to break the stereotypes.

Maybe it's a bit like the evolution of the Blues...everyone wants to sing about them, but few want to experience them first hand !
Rap is the most popular genre of music in the world, like rock & roll, reggae, jazz and the blues it’s gone past it’s origins and will only get more universal as time goes on.

We’re listening to Gill Scott Heron on the tour bus as we roll down a highway somewhere in Europe. I’m going to propose DAMN after to see how it holds up.
Old 20th April 2018
  #133
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lucasanything's Avatar
I honestly don't listen to rap much. Mostly older country and some college rock these days. But it actually surprised me that there isn't a general consensus about this.

Kendrick Lamar is one of the all time great artists. Not just in hip hop. One of the musical greats of all time. It's more so the other names that don't belong on a list alongside Mr. Lamar's name.
Old 20th April 2018
  #134
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The question is difficult to answer accurately, with the complexity of modern culture and variety of people.
From what you said it sounds like you're not too impressed with mainstream rap.
And I'd say that you have a very good sense of observation.

Last edited by Martel80; 21st April 2018 at 11:42 AM.. Reason: personnal
Old 20th April 2018
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
rap is the most popular genre of music in the world
That might well be true. On the internet, there are websites where you can listen to radio stations from all over the world. If you want to listen to traditional music from India, Africa, the Middle East, Japan, China etc. it's hard to find, because 99 % of the stations are playing rap, or some type of related music with a cut-and-paste computer beat, little variety in rythm or harmony, the meaning of the music based in word-based stories.

It's all the other types of music which need to be defended. Traditional Indonesian music? It's an entire universe of meaningful well crafted music with an incredible esthetic.
Old 20th April 2018
  #136
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I've checked on quite a few of the works mentioned in this thread, and I stand by my positive opinion about Lamar's Blood. Thanks to all those who cited these works.

While listening I was reminded that a lot of this is not really music but more of a poetry slam to simple beats. I was reminded that before rap became big it was this aspect that had appeal for me. In my opinion rap and hip hop could stand getting closer to a poetry slam. Just my .02, and as a joke I was going to quote a funny post above about beating twang or something like that but it seems to have been deleted.

In case some don't know about Solli Raphael:
YouTube

And I'll just add a piece about money, by Makeba who was much more a Black Panther than most of the bad ass hip hoppers or other half-time show Panther pretenders cashing in today:

YouTube
Old 20th April 2018
  #137
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brockorama's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
So in the end, you know what, I've decided to give him a chance.

The kid has a good hearth and a very down to earth attitude.

This life lesson thought me another humility lesson when I learned about his life path and what hes doing nowadays. The last month was a very intensive ''redifining'' moment for me but it was also a very ''down to reality'' moment for him.
This reminds me of my young neighbour Isaiah. He is very well prepared and can knock stuff out in 1 take like this "Not One's Well"
Attached Files

not one's well.mp3 (7.76 MB, 435 views)

Old 20th April 2018
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by brockorama View Post
This reminds me of my young neighbour Isaiah. He is very well prepared and can knock stuff out in 1 take like this "Not One's Well"
Thats cool

The other kid came across a lot more prepared I must say.

I wouldnt have settle for less.

I really dont have time to lose.
Old 20th April 2018
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
That might well be true. On the internet, there are websites where you can listen to radio stations from all over the world. If you want to listen to traditional music from India, Africa, the Middle East, Japan, China etc. it's hard to find, because 99 % of the stations are playing rap, or some type of related music with a cut-and-paste computer beat, little variety in rythm or harmony, the meaning of the music based in word-based stories.

It's all the other types of music which need to be defended. Traditional Indonesian music? It's an entire universe of meaningful well crafted music with an incredible esthetic.
Really....rap/hip hop didn’t stop people from listening to traditional Indonesian music, if you really want it you can find it and buy it...you’re really just looking for something to complain about and is grasping at straws...
Old 20th April 2018
  #140
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Ok, fair enough. I'm not too sure, but I think of it as being created by the artists esthetic and social point of view, combined with the artists idea of what is sellable, while under the influence of peer pressure and mass culture. Let me know how you would answer the question.
Im texting and not near a keyboard where I can answer you in detail. (but I will expound later.) Have you ever studied Psychology?
Old 20th April 2018
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
I've checked on quite a few of the works mentioned in this thread, and I stand by my positive opinion about Lamar's Blood. Thanks to all those who cited these works.

While listening I was reminded that a lot of this is not really music but more of a poetry slam to simple beats. I was reminded that before rap became big it was this aspect that had appeal for me. In my opinion rap and hip hop could stand getting closer to a poetry slam. Just my .02, and as a joke I was going to quote a funny post above about beating twang or something like that but it seems to have been deleted.

In case some don't know about Solli Raphael:
YouTube

And I'll just add a piece about money, by Makeba who was much more a Black Panther than most of the bad ass hip hoppers or other half-time show Panther pretenders cashing in today:

YouTube
I think the truth is that you made up your mind and had no intentions of changing it...furthermore, what did you expect after listening to two or five songs.
Old 20th April 2018
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I think the truth is that you made up your mind and had no intentions of changing it...
Think whatever you want to think, I don't care.

EDIT: Samc, when you edit a post you should indicate having done so. Heard lots more than five raps.

Last edited by Swing; 20th April 2018 at 04:32 PM.. Reason: Original post was changed
Old 20th April 2018
  #143
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And the world continues to turn...while some are standing still.
Old 20th April 2018
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
looking for something to complain about
I think about it critically because it's everywhere, unavoidable.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st April 2018 at 01:49 AM..
Old 20th April 2018
  #145
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
Think whatever you want to think, I don't care.
You should check out To Pimp a Butterfly.

I take it you're a appreciator of jazz. I think it incorporates it well throughout that album in a refreshing way. To me, just from a musical perspective, the arrangements and production is state of the art, much more interesting than what run of the mill hip hop or for that matter what much of jazz currently has to offer.
Old 20th April 2018
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
You should check out To Pimp a Butterfly.

I take it you're a appreciator of jazz. I think it incorporates it well throughout that album in a refreshing way. To me, just from a musical perspective, the arrangements and production is state of the art, much more interesting than what run of the mill hip hop or for that matter what much of jazz currently has to offer.
Have checked it out and I dig it.
Old 20th April 2018
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I think about it critically because it's everywhere, unavoidable.
There's a lot to discover from this culture.

Check out the History of Soulquarians that settled in Electric Lady Studio for example. Like I said, Lonnie Lynn was in this collective and hes now also an actor. Very literate men. Ahmir Thompson was also part of that collective. He's the drummer in the super band The Roots and they are the band playing for Jimmy Falloon night show since 2010. Erykah Baduh and D'angelo were also part of that same collective.

If you want to ear a pretty high energy but very interesting production of rap music , you could listen to the latest of that collective: Common - Electric Circus.
It is very eclectic.

If I was to stop listening to blues after listening to the never ending Muddy Waters - Mannish boy riff that was then revamped about 569286532 times , I would have lost the possibility to discover quite a strong culture.
Same thing for Shania Twain and country music.

Its easy to judge a type of music by its most famous artist and put them all in the same basket after but thats called generalisation and thats as most unprecised and ignorant based as it can possibly be. And I'm not point my finger at you. I was many time guilty of that behavior. And I still am some times when I'm stubborn.

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 21st April 2018 at 01:50 AM..
Old 20th April 2018
  #148
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
Its easy to judge a type of music by its most famous artist and put them all in the same basket after but thats called generalisation and thats as most unprecised and ignorant based as it can possibly be. And I'm not point my finger at you. I was many time guilty of that behavior. And I still am some times when I'm stubborn.
That's a given...

I'd say though, one could judge a type of music by its most important figures and best representations of it (not necessarily the most popular, to a lesser extent famous especially if it's within popular music forms). That's where the work comes in, to figure that out, which takes a lot of listening and research/studying.

In the end though, one's appreciation should be personal, and not necessarily influenced or swayed by that of anyone else, or any sort of extraneous influence like media presence, critics, popularity or fanboism.

You should like what you like because you really like it, not because you're supposed to like it...
Old 20th April 2018
  #149
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
That's a given...

I'd say though, one could judge a type of music by its most important figures and best representations of it (not necessarily the most popular, to a lesser extent famous especially if it's within popular music forms). That's where the work comes in, to figure that out, which takes a lot of listening and research/studying.

In the end though, one's appreciation should be personal, and not necessarily influenced or swayed by that of anyone else, or any sort of extraneous influence like media presence, critics, popularity or fanboism.

You should like what you like because you really like it, not because you're supposed to like it...
I'm sorry if I came accross like someone saying that anyone has to like Rap music or Jazz or whichever music for that matter....

What I meant is that Rap is not only what most people that dont know the genre mentionned here and I'm thinking about the never ending 2 bar loop made of cheap sound with machist and violence related lyrics vomited by an over confident goon.

I personaly play the pan flute very horribly, I dont like the instrument as it gives me headache when I hear it live but I'm quite sure theres more to it then condor pasa.

My point is that someone cannot judge a very complex art form by a few easily accessible creations.

Imagine the students in art school on their first homework, the teacher show them that famous toilet bowl and say, this is art....tomorrow bring me back a 200 words review of this sculpture.

Would it be fair to say that because one rejected his homework , then its acceptable to think that because he didnt like it, he's actually informed of what that art really is and therefor be took into account when we discuss the art forms in the broader range.

Thats what I mean.

I dont like it because its cheap and oversimplistic ( and keep on with the very bad aspect of anything ) so therefor this is not music.

What if I said I heard my 12 years old nephew playing with his orchestra at his High school and I thought classical musician are out of talents so I dont like it.

Isnt it a bit out of touch ?
Old 20th April 2018
  #150
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
What I meant is that Rap is not only what most people that dont know the genre mentionned here and I'm thinking about the never ending 2 bar loop made of cheap sound with machist and violence related lyrics vomited by an over confident goon.
I think that sort of myopia applies not only to rap, but to jazz, classical, avant garde music, certain ethnic music, etc...

I mean if you look at this forum, some of the innate ignorance, stereotypes, closed-mindedness and prejudices about non rock/pop or funk/R&B/hip hop are displayed across the spectrum.

I'd say generally, from what I can gather, there are more people here with more granular knowledge about rap and hip hop than say free jazz, contemporary classical music, hard bop, early jazz, Indian music, and so forth.

I just say, have an open mind, and learn and enjoy as much as you can, in an honest and sincere way...
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