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Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer for Music Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 19th April 2018
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
"This message has been deleted by psycho_monkey. Reason: Funny but not helpful - thread on final warning..."

This sort of moderation is not warranted. There are many opinions here, but no personal attacks by or against forum members. It sounds to me like a pretty civilized discussion about art (or what it is or isn't). My $0.02
Agreed, if that moderation-posting means the entire thread is on warning of shutdown ?? It's devolving, though, towards the same sort of insult trading and ad-hominem attacks to be found in the Jaco Pastorius thread.

Which is pretty futile, when we all know the outcome can ultimately be none other than 'it's a matter of taste and preference, and we can all agree to disagree on that' !

However, prior to that inevitability horizon, efforts at eloquent persuasion and harmless venting are par for the course...it's just pixel-pushing and electron-shoving, sound and fury, signifying nothing
Old 19th April 2018
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
there were artists acutely aware of societal issues, much like the aware hip hop artists
I understand that you are associating artists from a viewpoint of societal issues. It makes for a tricky debate, because of the
difference between the topic and the content of a song.
Old 19th April 2018
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Does Kendrick have a conga ?...this debate is getting old real fast...little new under the sun, the source had more sauce, 1970 : YouTube

At least Kendrick got televised...unlike the revolution
"New" doesn't always have much to do with things. Quality + relevance >>>> innovation most of the time. Quality > most things.

People don't want new morning drinks, they want high quality coffee. The highest quality coffee that's relevant to the times within the cultural zeitgeist is what matters most, not some newfangled "innovative" morning drink that's largely irrelevant.

Those times where innovation meets quality + relevance are special, I agree. Last century there were a lot of these moments thanks to the constant technological developments leading to entirely new sets of sonics never before heard each and every decade, which plateaued out mid 2000s. But ultimately innovation and "new" aren't at the top of the list as far as what matters in connecting with people and making a cultural impact. Saying "here's something sort of like this from the past" doesn't discount anything.
Old 19th April 2018
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
"This message has been deleted by psycho_monkey. Reason: Funny but not helpful - thread on final warning..."

This sort of moderation is not warranted. There are many opinions here, but no personal attacks by or against forum members. It sounds to me like a pretty civilized discussion about art (or what it is or isn't). My $0.02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I agree...never could understand the management of this place some times.
Sorry. Not up for discussion - this thread is on the edge as far as the political aspects go - we don't allow political discussion, it's in the FAQs and no point arguing with me about that, I don't make the rules.

Whilst you're there, please also read the bit about moderation - criticism of mods is not permitted in the threads, if you have an issue then take it up with whitecat or support. We're just doing our best.

Advance warning that future off topic debate on this will be removed. Help us to help you, and stay on topic!
Old 19th April 2018
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Agreed, if that moderation-posting means the entire thread is on warning of shutdown ?? It's devolving, though, towards the same sort of insult trading and ad-hominem attacks to be found in the Jaco Pastorius thread.

Which is pretty futile, when we all know the outcome can ultimately be none other than 'it's a matter of taste and preference, and we can all agree to disagree on that' !

However, prior to that inevitability horizon, efforts at eloquent persuasion and harmless venting are par for the course...it's just pixel-pushing and electron-shoving, sound and fury, signifying nothing
I'm just trying to keep the thread within forum rules and open...see above (and please no further discussion!).
Old 19th April 2018
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I understand that you are associating artists from a viewpoint of societal issues. It makes for a tricky debate, because of the
difference between the topic and the content of a song.
I think there is relevance, especially considering those issues no doubt played a part in Kendrick getting the award.

Also, it there is a connective thread in that many generations of African American artists expressed their plight and subjugation, and the realities of their existence through words and music...they all are part of that continuum.
Old 19th April 2018
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The Last Poets (according to wiki):
'The Last Poets were one of the earliest influences on hip-hop music. Critic Jason Ankeny wrote: "With their politically charged raps, taut rhythms, and dedication to raising African-American consciousness, the Last Poets almost single-handedly laid the groundwork for the emergence of hip-hop." The British music magazine NME stated, "Serious spokesmen like Gil Scott-Heron, The Last Poets, and later Gary Byrd, paved the way for the many socially committed Black [emcees] a decade later'
The reality and conditions of their lives and the community they lived in were the biggest influences that directed 'conscious-rap' in the early ‘80s. as evidenced in "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the furious five featuring the rapping of Melle Mel.

By the way, the groundwork for the emergence of Hip Hop/rap was laid in the 'dancehalls' of Jamaica by sound system toasters many decades before, and "The Message" had a bigger influence on 'conscious-rap' than the works you mention.
Old 19th April 2018
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Does Kendrick have a conga ?...this debate is getting old real fast...little new under the sun, the source had more sauce, 1970 : YouTube

At least Kendrick got televised...unlike the revolution
Nice one. Don't forget Gil Scott-Heron may he RIP. Haven't peeped KL but I agree with there being little new under the sun... I will check him out with open ears.
Old 19th April 2018
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issadore View Post
Don't forget Gil Scott-Heron may he RIP.
GSH - the godfather and Charlie Parker of rap. He will never be forgotten. It bears to mention he referred himself as a "bluesologist", in a sense no different than how one may describe Kendrick Lamar as well.

I suggest people check out his work. The incredible thing about it is how it's still resonant to everything occurring today. That's saying something...
Old 19th April 2018
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Since when is this even relevant...? It's always worrying when someone suggest or imply that they alone know the truth.

How many people here have lived in a yellow submarine...
I think it is relevant because the issue of appropriation was raised, and my point is much of this art form appropriates and glorifies violence because it makes a lot of money. Same issue that exists with video games. How many of the "real life" episodes of violence experienced by rappers is actually real, and how many are staged? I doubt all of them are real. Even Justin Bieber tries to establish cred with Usher co-promotions, scenes of supposed violence, and one night stands.

As to the yellow sub, my guess is nobody here has lived in one.

There is more than ample reason for social commentary and protest, but not the incessant glorification of violence and poor treatment of women. Coltrane created Alabama for a reason. Akinmusire created My Name is Oscar for a reason. Max Roach, Sonny Rollins and many many others have created protest works. But these artists did not repeatedly appropriate violence and make it central to their work in order to keep the cash rolling in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
. . .
Shawn carter, the story of OJ( I was litteraly speechless the 5 first time I heard it ) not to mention Deon masterful work
Brother Ali...just too many to even mention
John Fareed - we the people ( again...speechless) the cut make it even more heavy
Mathias Bavitz....again, I dont know where to start
Nasir Jones.... come on now, do I really need to say more ?

. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
check out Amos Tutuola "The Palm Wine Drinkard"
Will be checking these out. It is possible my perception is inaccurate, and am glad for the references.
Old 19th April 2018
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
There is more than ample reason for social commentary and protest, but not the incessant glorification of violence and poor treatment of women. Coltrane created Alabama for a reason. Akinmusire created My Name is Oscar for a reason. Max Roach, Sonny Rollins and many many others have created protest works. But these artists did not repeatedly appropriate violence and make it central to their work in order to keep the cash rolling in.
Go back way earlier, 1939, Billie Holiday, Strange Fruit...

Nonetheless, your critique is as much an indictment of the music industry, and in a broader context popular culture and media, of which the driving force is the bottom line, where everything else, including content is subordinate to that.

When it comes to representations of violence,I think there are parallels to other forms of media, whether it be movies or video games, even other forms of music other than hip hop.

To single out hip hop in general is falling for the rapicious marketing, and scapegoating a particular segment rather than the bigger picture. Hopefully, within the general muck pervading the scene, works of true merit can be recognized.

IMO, Kendrick's recognition is a vindication of that.
Old 19th April 2018
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Go back way earlier, 1939, Billie Holiday, Strange Fruit...

Nonetheless, your critique is as much an indictment of the music industry, and in a broader context popular culture and media, of which the driving force is the bottom line, where everything else, including content is subordinate to that.

When it comes to representations of violence,I think there are parallels to other forms of media, whether it be movies or video games, even other forms of music other than hip hop.

To single out hip hop in general is falling for the rapicious marketing, and scapegoating a particular segment rather than the bigger picture. Hopefully, within the general muck pervading the scene, works of true merit can be recognized.

IMO, Kendrick's recognition is a vindication of that.
Yes, protest in music has always existed and I am glad to hear Strange Fruit played more and more often these past years. And it is very sad that the piece is still so relevant.

Samc's yellow submarine comment was pretty funny and is also relevant. While probably nobody here has lived on a yellow sub, had anybody done so they'd probably not consider it either fun or glorious. Violence is not fun and it is not glorious.

And violence in other forms of entertainment than rap and hip hop and video games surely exists and is also disturbing. When "Taxi Driver" was released the violence was shocking. Five years later it was no longer shocking. More than thirty years later it is nothing.

Later today I'll check out some of the other pieces mentioned, and hopefully my perception that there is too much appropriation and glorification of violence is wrong. Regardless, I don't begrudge Lamar having won a Pulitzer.
Old 19th April 2018
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
There is more than ample reason for social commentary and protest, but not the incessant glorification of violence and poor treatment of women. Coltrane created Alabama for a reason. Akinmusire created My Name is Oscar for a reason. Max Roach, Sonny Rollins and many many others have created protest works. But these artists did not repeatedly appropriate violence and make it central to their work in order to keep the cash rolling in.
.




Its a generalisation to think that those artist make violence the center of their work when the center of their life is actual violence.

Those 2 songs carry the same message, yet they are seperated by more then 50 years...
When I think about art, I also take the environment into account. This make me travel and feel the music.
It's like if everybody was denying the existence of chirak, suburbs of detroit, atlanta, baltimore, LA....

I mean, there was more murder in Baltimore last year then in my whole country and they have about 2% of my whole country population
Baltimore 621 000
canada 37 000 000

Thats a city....One single city representing less then 2% of a country....

This music sometime reflect their multigenerational social situation,And If you ask me, I'm not sure those are the songs they are most proud of. The only thing is that they are smart enough to understand that they have a platform to stand for what they believe is right. You might believe that its wrong to talk about the attrocities that are still taking place and a so called first world country but I believe its anti-hypocritical. Its against the fakery of this world.

I might be a huge rap fan but I'm not always listening to rap, in fact I rarely listen to rap for the last decade or so. But as ahuman being, I would be very ashamed of myself to deny is reason in existence and why it needs to live and flourish.

Me too I hope one day I wont need or have to hear those type of songs but sadly, this is still a reality.

Often Dramatized, maybe.
capitalized on fake violent events, not as much as someof you seem to think.
We all can decide to close our eyes on any event but that doesnt make those event less factual....and those a real life drama...im sorry, catastrophy.

And now we have Kendrick wining this prize.....men come on now.
This is a very pathetic try to insult human beings inteligence.

All I know is if I was a dark skin men in the states, id be in jail for life now. Thats for sure.

Last edited by Martel80; 19th April 2018 at 10:50 AM..
Old 19th April 2018
  #104
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Hands down one of the most thought provoking and informative threads on these fora in my opinion...and nothing to do with gear.
Old 19th April 2018
  #106
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Can that "music" be notated and published? Words can be printed on the page but where do you put the notes if there aren't any?
The moment you put music in parenthesis, it makes the conversation head down hill.

The problem with giving this to Kendrick is honestly that they gave it to the wrong one of his albums.

TPAB was worthy.

Last edited by IM WHO YOU THINK; 19th April 2018 at 08:55 PM..
Old 19th April 2018
  #107
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
That in a forum supposedly comprised of folks within the broader artistic community, that anyone views culture and art as though they're ostrich with its head in the sand, is quite stultifying.

The ignorance and insensitivity runs deep...
You're missing what it actually is, but we're not allowed to say on the forum.
Old 19th April 2018
  #108
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@Swing glorification of violence and misogyny against women existed long before Hip Hop, I don't personally defend Hip Hop as a whole or in parts but will say that the current era is one where discussions of these issues within Hip Hop are not falling on deaf ears thanks to social media.

@Martel80 it is important to not forget that KL comes from a city rooted in gang violence but chose not to portray it in first person as a rap artist, instead he positioned himself as what his debut album title was.
Old 19th April 2018
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
You're missing what it actually is, but we're not allowed to say on the forum.


Some call it voldemort
Old 19th April 2018
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post

@Martel80 it is important to not forget that KL comes from a city rooted in gang violence but chose not to portray it in first person as a rap artist, instead he positioned himself as what his debut album title was.
I'm not questioning where he's from or the bull**** ''''REALEST'' type of judgement. What I'm underlining is that Kendrick is actually what Kanye should have been if he never had this CVA after College dropout and became the gayfish that we all know. Kendrick is a GREAT rapper but he's definitely not an award winning pulitzer winner.....that makes absolutely no sense. Not with the recent masterpiece we had. Kendricks album are great I tottaly agree But I believe Shawn Carter 4:44 was definitely extremly heavy for what he is and what he became. ATCQ latest is also a masterpiece. There's too many to name to simply drop that award on the latest hot pocket that kendrick is. ( No offence to kendrick, I love him )

Random info, John Fareed (Q-tip) will be teaching in NYU this fall for the influence of Jazz in Hip-Hop.
Old 19th April 2018
  #111
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Q-Tip, a really clever wordsmith if there was ever a rapper deserving of the title. Those who claim that rap/hip hop is just about glorifying violence probably never listened to his work.

One of the things that always strike me when I work on some rap projects and certain rappers is how well read and tuned many of them artist are. Not to mention their broad knowledge of music of all styles and culture in general. This displays a level of openness that many who throw out criticism of the genre blindly don’t seem to have.
Old 19th April 2018
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
You're missing what it actually is, but we're not allowed to say on the forum.
Yeah, no need though; the usual suspects still come out display who they really are.

Somewhere there's an apt Maya Angelou quote on that...

Gotta say, props to psycho_monkey. I think he's moderated this thread very well, with an even hand and thoughtful judiciousness that allowed it to not get locked.
Old 19th April 2018
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
As a white person, what I don't understand about hip hop is that it seems to me to be based in a negative racial stereotype or derogatory image of black culture. I feel like it insults (and creates a negative caricature of) black people. Also, it seems to me to have a rigidly imposed minimum of poetic and musical elements.
Who do you think controls hip hop? Who profits most from it?
Old 19th April 2018
  #116
Well, it really depend who you're looking at.

Kweli is a very fierce defendant of his community and I salut him for that. Not that much illiterate to me, especially compared to ANY rock stars out there.
Of course we could point out the goons of rap like master p and such but we could also point out the same in Ozzy for example.

As for the music, again, it depends which rap song you listen to. There's some great records like theres the 3 chords rap song like rock.

The people that are controlled had to be controlled.

Some artists that were 20 in the early 90's now make interview explaining why they were controlled and it usually come down to their former life being broke and then being served like semi god.

So all those young kids went out and bought stupid things like platinum chains and luxury car without investing their money.

I think its a pretty normal reaction from any poor men that suddenly become rich.

But the good thing is that its not all the rapper that reacted like that.

Lonnie Linn made a career as an actor.

Yasiin Bey aswell

Those two are very articulate individual and defendant of the right of their community but beforehand of human beings.
Old 19th April 2018
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
Who do you think controls hip hop? Who profits most from it?
Are you implying that the image of hip hop is controlled by white culture, for white profit, or am I totally misinterpreting your question?
Old 19th April 2018
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Are you implying that the image of hip hop is controlled by white culture, for white profit, or am I totally misinterpreting your question?
I asked a question. Why are you looking for something to be implied? You made a statement about what you didn't get "as a white person" and I asked your opinion to get you to elaborate on what you thought.

There's nothing implied by me in your view point.
Old 19th April 2018
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Are you implying that the image of hip hop is controlled by white culture, for white profit, or am I totally misinterpreting your question?
Now that you mention it, you should see the documentary Hip Hop Evolution on Netflix, because despite the amount of money some rappers earn there are people who have never stood behind a mic earning a lot more than the rappers.
Old 19th April 2018
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Q-Tip, a really clever wordsmith if there was ever a rapper deserving of the title. Those who claim that rap/hip hop is just about glorifying violence probably never listened to his work.

One of the things that always strike me when I work on some rap projects and certain rappers is how well read and tuned many of them artist are. Not to mention their broad knowledge of music of all styles and culture in general. This displays a level of openness that many who throw out criticism of the genre blindly don’t seem to have.
I'd like to add Mos Def and Chuck D to the short list...there are many others and I'll probably add some more later.
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