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Kendrick Lamar wins the Pulitzer for Music Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 4th May 2018
  #361
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Rock n roll initially did, thus rock, comes from black music.

Blues, swing and jazz are African-American art forms.

If one doesn't get that, read some books...
Just to take this point even further back, I would say without any doubt the musical construct of a chorus is borne out of African music, predating vaudville, jazz, rock, pop, and all others, it's direct descendant being slave gang/community choirs.
At the turn of the 20th century, French Catholic missionaries were making 78's recordings of Mass , including choirs singing in native tongues. The resemblance in structure to that of slave music is utterly remarkable. These pressings made by the French Catholics were never for release, but instead used as marketing tools in western society to demonstrate the expansion efforts of the Catholic faith corporation and pad out funding for further efforts in Africa.
I have one of these recordings, one is of the Lord's Prayer sung in a Congolese dialect. The track is called Na Bo Munigay ( not spelt correctly. I'll dig it up and add a correction).
If you close your eyes and forget you are listening to complete obscurity, you can hear the founding building blocks of the modern song at it's very inception, in my opinion the chorus section of song is directly from African music. More so than even the most repititious song cycles of early European folk music. The similarity to American slave music, which these people would never have heard at this point in history, leaves no doubt in my mind that whatever music history was passed down from Africans originating from Africa and finding themselves in the Americas, are in fact the founding fathers of what we consider to be a chorus in a song.
All modern music is descended from African music in one form or another with the only exceptions being traditional and ancient music from whatever corner of the world it came from. Just my opinion.

Last edited by GeneHall; 4th May 2018 at 09:54 PM..
Old 5th May 2018
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
Well, When a ''black'' person say that to another ''Black'' person, they are not having a second thought on a denigrating therm.....they are saying it in a very private and friendly way. So its not always about shame in their ''segregated idea of black people'' point of view.
I was just riding on the subway and a bunch of schoolgirls were having a loud
animated conversation, addressing each other as bi___h. Of course there's a
comical side to it.
Old 5th May 2018
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneHall View Post
Just to take this point even further back, I would say without any doubt the musical construct of a chorus is borne out of African music, predating vaudville, jazz, rock, pop, and all others, it's direct descendant being slave gang/community choirs.
At the turn of the 20th century, French Catholic missionaries were making 78's recordings of Mass , including choirs singing in native tongues. The resemblance in structure to that of slave music is utterly remarkable. These pressings made by the French Catholics were never for release, but instead used as marketing tools in western society to demonstrate the expansion efforts of the Catholic faith corporation and pad out funding for further efforts in Africa.
I have one of these recordings, one is of the Lord's Prayer sung in a Congolese dialect. The track is called Na Bo Munigay ( not spelt correctly. I'll dig it up and add a correction).
If you close your eyes and forget you are listening to complete obscurity, you can hear the founding building blocks of the modern song at it's very inception, in my opinion the chorus section of song is directly from African music. More so than even the most repititious song cycles of early European folk music. The similarity to American slave music, which these people would never have heard at this point in history, leaves no doubt in my mind that whatever music history was passed down from Africans originating from Africa and finding themselves in the Americas, are in fact the founding fathers of what we consider to be a chorus in a song.
All modern music is descended from African music in one form or another with the only exceptions being traditional and ancient music from whatever corner of the world it came from. Just my opinion.
According to scientific studies in human prehistory, the first three known groups of hominids existed in Africa 6 million years ago. So yes, Africa is a major source of world culture.
Old 5th May 2018
  #364
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I was just riding on the subway and a bunch of schoolgirls were having a loud
animated conversation, addressing each other as bi___h. Of course there's a
comical side to it.
Yes, thats what I meant.
Thats the perfect example.
When you're young, you get this ''nothing really matter anyways'' type of drive.

Sooner or later, you lose that and you start respecting stuff you thought was not important before.

I never went in that N word culture, I never felt compelled by it and never understood what there was for anyone in there anyways but I had my fair share of early moment where me and my friends were calling each others bad names just to laugh and pinch each other a little.

I can certainly understand why people would call each other that word just like I used to say the word ''man'' every 4 words in every sentence.

It was Just a lack of vocabulary and an emotionally driven conversation I guess.
Old 5th May 2018
  #365
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I was just riding on the subway and a bunch of schoolgirls were having a loud
animated conversation, addressing each other as bi___h. Of course there's a
comical side to it.
It's not unusual for people in a group to use a term within the group, based on the relationship between group members, that might otherwise have a different meaning outside of the group.

We call each other slutz. You wouldn't go to the mall and start calling people slutz. If someone at the mall heard me call you a slut, they wouldn't think it's OK for them to do so. Based on our interaction here, we relate to one another differently than we would with someone at the mall.

You couldn't call one of them a bi$$h. You don't have that relationship with them.

It's not emotionally driven and it's not a lack of vocabulary. It's people with a relationship to one another.
Old 5th May 2018
  #366
Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
It's not unusual for people in a group to use a term within the group, based on the relationship between group members, that might otherwise have a different meaning outside of the group.

We call each other slutz. You wouldn't go to the mall and start calling people slutz. If someone at the mall heard me call you a slut, they wouldn't think it's OK for them to do so. Based on our interaction here, we relate to one another differently than we would with someone at the mall.

You couldn't call one of them a bi$$h. You don't have that relationship with them.

It's not emotionally driven and it's not a lack of vocabulary. It's people with a relationship to one another.
Its possible to have a relationship without being vulgar or even on a second thought offensive. That was the point that you took out of context or just straight ignore and that boombapdame underlined and that I agreed upon and rephrased to show my understanding of the situation.

My relationship to you doesnt allow me, in this exact moment to call you a slut.

I could go full ****** or ignorant and unsensitive alike and call you names but that wouldnt change that slut is still an offensive word ....and so is the N word.

Thats what I was saying.

I dont know if you tried to insult the other members intelligence by deviating the sense of my message but I certainly hope you understood that it failed horribly now.
Old 6th May 2018
  #367
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Two words which are used a lot in an informal, comedic, street context are the n word and the bi___ words (powerful, impactful words with negative connotations). In constructing a hip hop text, to encorporate them helps create a street vibe, but by overusing the words, an imaginary world is created inhabited mainly by n and b beings, a reduction from men and women, paving a path for the spoken text to enter into an ambiguous zone of street vibe, comedy, boast, threat and abuse. The minimal use of musical elements entices the listener to focus on the spoken words, not sung melodically but closer to someone talking.

Last edited by aracu; 6th May 2018 at 05:40 AM..
Old 6th May 2018
  #368
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Two words which are used a lot in an informal, comedic, street context are the n word and the bi___ words (powerful, impactful words with negative connotations). In constructing a hip hop text, to encorporate them helps create a street vibe, but by overusing the words, an imaginary world is created inhabited mainly by n and b beings, a reduction from men and women, paving a path for the spoken text to enter into an ambiguous zone of street vibe, comedy, boast, threat and abuse. The minimal use of musical elements entices the listener to focus on the spoken words, not sung melodically but closer to someone talking.
That's an interesting point of view.

What I understand is that You are more attracted by the words and rap in the rap song then you are by the music.

To me, personally , its the opposite.

I prefer the musical aspect and the choice of samples stacked together ....thats what I love about it.

In fact, I usually listen to rap instrumentals or band like RJD2, The avalanches, Blockhead, Nujabes or even one of the extrapopular Rap producer like Premier, Pete Rock, J Dilla, Alchemist or even 9th Wonder.

Now that you mention it, I dont remember the last time I've paid attention to the lyrics....
Hummmm....I think it was the candy shop song by 50 cent....
Yeah....thats about .....13 years ago.


I mean, I listen to what they say but I dont care ....i dont know how to explain it. Its like noise on top of music....
Old 6th May 2018
  #369
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kafka's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Can that "music" be notated and published? Words can be printed on the page but where do you put the notes if there aren't any?
Lamar has a very controlled use of pitch. His use of rhythm is beyond complex. It's clearly very intentional, and not simply incidental to the cadence of normal spoken speech.
Old 6th May 2018
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Can that "music" be notated and published? Words can be printed on the page but where do you put the notes if there aren't any?
As to the first question mostly the old parts spliced-in from real musicians and packaged/produced into the product, which works ok since the major labels have the rights to most of the historic recordings. As to the second question the spoken word is where most of the value lies, in my opinion.

Overall, I'd say to be careful of the monster: YouTube
Old 7th May 2018
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
In fact, I usually listen to rap instrumentals or band like RJD2, The avalanches, Blockhead, Nujabes or even one of the extrapopular Rap producer like Premier, Pete Rock, J Dilla, Alchemist or even 9th Wonder.
Looks like there is "hardcore" rap which sticks to a particular set of limitations,
and then, music groups which sometimes encorporate it to varying degrees.
Old 7th May 2018
  #372
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Looks like there is "hardcore" rap which sticks to a particular set of limitations,
and then, music groups which sometimes encorporate it to varying degrees.
Yes, it can certainly be seen that way.
I am able to appreciate both I guess but I must admit that the older I am, the less agressive type I appreciate.
There is some very interesting ways of creating music that have been set in place by the later and earlier artist i've named and I'm pretty sure that the earlier name I've said were directly influenced by the later name I've said.
There's also some more creative ways of music that I've heard from that type of music. Madvilan is one of them....very special music that I must admit never attracted me.
It's really a world and you understand how difficult it is to create this genre once you try doing it yourself. I mean, if you have a minimum of quality control in you.
That Premier guy i've mentioned, he used to have a band with another guys called Guru that passed away in 2010.
Guru was not the greatest of rapper but he had great ideas.
He created a series of album where Jazz was meeting Rap.
He called his project Jazzmatazz. It was not the greatest Jazz I've everheard and not the greatest Rap I've ever heard but it really brought together two different genre in a very decent harmony.
I always thought it was a very interesting project.
I truly believe its not as easy to make ''rap'' music as most people tend to describe it.
if the format would have stood still for 4 decades, I would have had a different opinion I guess but it just kept on evolving and taking a lot of different avenues and I believe that its a great sign of extremely talented creator to not repeat the same formula again and again.
Old 7th May 2018
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martel80 View Post
I truly believe its not as easy to make ''rap'' music as most people tend to describe it.
It has to be very difficult because of the strict codes of the genre and competition. By codes I mean the stylistic musical limitations which are imposed to create an authentic piece, which the artists work under. Hard core hip hop reminds me of it's opposite, hard core modernist academic "atonal" 20th century music, in using strict codes which result in a reduced emotional palette. Hip hop: maximum repetition, minimal structural, melodic, harmonic and rythmic complexity, no singing. Modernist "atonal" music: no repetition, maximum apparent complexity and randomness, minimum "tonality", minimum traditional melodic elements. The music which supposedly corresponds with the identity of USA black male street culture and it's opposite, music which supposedly corresponds with the identity of late 20th century USA gringo male university culture, sound totally different but have in common strict codes which result in a reduced variety of emotional possibilities.
Old 7th May 2018
  #374
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
It has to be very difficult because of the strict codes of the genre and competition. By codes I mean the stylistic musical limitations which are imposed to create an authentic piece, which the artists work under. Hard core hip hop reminds me of it's opposite, hard core modernist academic "atonal" 20th century music, in using strict codes which result in a reduced emotional palette. Hip hop: maximum repetition, minimal structural, melodic, harmonic and rythmic complexity, no singing. Modernist "atonal" music: no repetition, maximum apparent complexity and randomness, minimum "tonality", minimum traditional melodic elements. The music which supposedly corresponds with the identity of USA black male street culture and it's opposite, music which supposedly corresponds with the identity of late 20th century USA gringo male university culture, sound totally different but have in common strict codes which result in a reduced variety of emotional possibilities.
I think, in your description, the word Authentic is very important for it to glue to the impression that you later suggest.
As with any genre, there's parts that goes out of this authentic description.
I used to hate Jazz when I was young because all I was hearing here in Montreal ''alternative'' radio was jazz fusion mixed with Acid Jazz. It was really not accessible to a ''not trained ear''. Later in my early 20's I've discovered Bill Evans, Ahmad Jamal and Hank Jones which all brought another very interesting aspect to what I thought was ''my type of Jazz''.
I've always had and in most case still have this point of view that some of those Acid Jazz extra long solos completely lose my interest as to me, it only seems like an endless boasting on how much dissonant notes can be played in such a short amount of time. I'm also hearing this a lot in modern classical composition. Not only is it completely lost in emotional translation but it really seems to me that even tho' I can tell they know how to play their instrument, they dont have a single clue whats enjoyable in music.
But when I say that, I understand that we all have different needs in therm of music.
I guess its now easier for me to understand that what is authentic or original to a genre is only influenced by my knowledge and my understanding of that genre. In most case, I might and must be totally off.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #376
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I once saw a lecture where Wynton said the 60s were a mistske.

On a lot of matters, he's slightly to the right of Clarence Thomas, Rush Limbaugh, Mike Pence and Dick Cheney.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I once saw a lecture where Wynton said the 60s were a mistske.

On a lot of matters, he's slightly to the right of Clarence Thomas, Rush Limbaugh, Mike Pence and Dick Cheney.
Calling Wynton to the right of Uncle Tom and his friends ? Wynton has his pros and cons for sure, like all of us. But he is not to the right of Thomas and those others.

The actual interview is more nuanced than the Post article and, as its a long interview, you've not had time to listen to it since I made my post. If you already listened before my post, then forget my last sentence.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
Calling Wynton to the right of Uncle Tom and his friends ? Wynton has his pros and cons for sure, like all of us. But he is not to the right of Thomas and those others.
I suggest a recalibration of your hyperbole and sardonicism meter.

I hope you got my broader point though - Wynton is no Abbie Hoffman...
Old 22nd May 2018
  #379
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boombapdame's Avatar
Wynton is cool w/Stanley Crouch hence his take on Hip Hop.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I suggest a recalibration of your hyperbole and sardonicism meter.

. . .
I'm working on it . . .
Old 22nd May 2018
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I suggest a recalibration of your hyperbole and sardonicism meter.
..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
I'm working on it . . .
Yea, but where are you going to get official standards of hyperbole and sardonicism to calibrate against?
Old 22nd May 2018
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Yea, but where are you going to get official standards of hyperbole and sardonicism to calibrate against?
That's a tough one. But upon reflection, I sometimes help with some young children musicians and they present tougher specifications even than some of the proud posers on GS, so I'll keep improving there and can only get better overall.

edit: The "proud posers" crack was not at all re 12tone, but just a general joke.

Last edited by Swing; 22nd May 2018 at 08:56 PM.. Reason: clarity
Old 22nd May 2018
  #383
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I once saw a lecture where Wynton said the 60s were a mistske.

On a lot of matters, he's slightly to the right of Clarence Thomas, Rush Limbaugh, Mike Pence and Dick Cheney.
So, (to the extent allowed in this forum) elaborate on that. On what matters would you say he's to the right of those people you named? And where's he actually wrong?
Old 22nd May 2018
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
So, (to the extent allowed in this forum) elaborate on that. On what matters would you say he's to the right of those people you named? And where's he actually wrong?
As I said I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic.

The lecture that I saw, was when Wynton was coming into his own, before the Lincoln Jazz stuff, his Pulitzer, etc, nevertheless was going real strong having been signed to Columbia to both a jazz and claasical contract. Even early on, he seemed very conservative and opinionated.

Not to get too much into it, when someone summarily dismisses the entire sixties, that pretty much is a good indication of where some of their other views might lie. Suffice it to say, in that lecture he dissed many things, among them free jazz, avant garde music, rock, hippies, how children are raised, etc...

It's not too hard to guess what his views on rap and hip hop may be. Let's say I wasn't surprised.

Oddly, I'd think his brother Branford wouldn't have such closed minded views.

Also, I'm not making a blanket statement that all conservative or rightwing people are reticent about rap and hip hop, not at all - Pharma Bro Martin Shkreli being a good example.

I just made an assumption based from gleaning myriad opinions posited by Wynton over the last three decades to find his views on rap not too surprising...
Old 22nd May 2018
  #385
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
As I said I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic.

The lecture that I saw, was when Wynton was coming into his own, before the Lincoln Jazz stuff, his Pulitzer, etc, nevertheless was going real strong having been signed to Columbia to both a jazz and claasical contract. Even early on, he seemed very conservative and opinionated.

Not to get too much into it, when someone summarily dismisses the entire sixties, that pretty much is a good indication of where some of their other views might lie. Suffice it to say, in that lecture he dissed many things, among them free jazz, avant garde music, rock, hippies, how children are raised, etc...

It's not too hard to guess what his views on rap and hip hop may be. Let's say I wasn't surprised.

Oddly, I'd think his brother Branford wouldn't have such closed minded views.

Also, I'm not making a blanket statement that all conservative or rightwing people are reticent about rap and hip hop, not at all - Pharma Bro Martin Shkreli being a good example.

I just made an assumption based from gleaning myriad opinions posited by Wynton over the last three decades to find his views on rap not too surprising...
So you think what he said about hip hop in the vids presented was closed minded, or are you speculating on what he may have said as a guess?

Of couse I recognized your sarcasm, but I listened to much of the interview, and I can't say that he was off the mark. So, I was speaking in regard to that part of his interview when I asked. (I felt that's why he was introduced into this particular thread, for he view on hip hop/rap).

Do you think he was wrong about his views on rap?
Old 22nd May 2018
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK View Post
So you think what he said about hip hop in the vids presented was closed minded, or are you speculating on what he may have said as a guess?

Of couse I recognized your sarcasm, but I listened to much of the interview, and I can't say that he was off the mark. So, I was speaking in regard to that part of his interview when I asked. (I felt that's why he was introduced into this particular thread, for he view on hip hop/rap).

Do you think he was wrong about his views on rap?
TBH, I didn't read the WP article (I'm out of free articles for the month, but saw the headline), and I didn't listen to the interview. Not really interested in listening to it. I'm listening to sports talk radio now about the GS Warriors, priorities you know.

I don't have the desire nor gumption to get into a full blown discourse about what Wynton said. There's too much polarization already on the matter, I don't want to exacerbate things...and like I said, given what he's said in the past about many diverse things, I could guess what he may have said.
Old 22nd May 2018
  #387
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
TBH, I didn't read the WP article (I'm out of free articles for the month, but saw the headline), and I didn't listen to the interview. Not really interested in listening to it. I'm listening to sports talk radio now about the GS Warriors, priorities you know.

I don't have the desire nor gumption to get into a full blown discourse about what Wynton said. There's too much polarization already on the matter, I don't want to exacerbate things...and like I said, given what he's said in the past about many diverse things, I could guess what he may have said.
Cool, so you don't have an opinion on this matter, you were speculating based on his general stance on issues expressed at other times. Fair enough.

I listened to the interview and I couldn't see how anyone would not agree with him. You weren't really disagreeing, since you haven't heard it.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #388
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It's hard or even impossible to listen to music objectively, without being influenced by politics or what other people think. Music is based on structures which require participation of conforming to. We don't generally listen to traditional Indonesian music (for example) since we are only vaguely aware of traditional Indonesian culture , not enough to feel much social obligation to conform our thinking to it's musical structures. But we have a personal freedom to identify with any music or culture. The problem with mass computer cellphone culture is it informs the masses what to identify with.
Old 23rd May 2018
  #389
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
It's hard or even impossible to listen to music objectively, without being influenced by politics or what other people think. Music is based on structures which require participation of conforming to. We don't generally listen to traditional Indonesian music (for example) since we are only vaguely aware of traditional Indonesian culture , not enough to feel much social obligation to conform our thinking to it's musical structures. But we have a personal freedom to identify with any music or culture. The problem with mass computer cellphone culture is it informs the masses what to identify with.
I think that it's a very brief generalization of a listener possibility to appreciate an unconventional art form.

There's also people that are curious by nature and easily fall in boredom when they can easily pin point a reference to something they are familiar with.

I'm often part of the latest.

But I need to underline that I would totally agree with this statement to easily group most of the listeners I've met. Especially the one that call or define themself as purist.
Old 1st June 2018
  #390
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsyourself View Post
It's perfectly ok if you don't know his work, but the knee jerk put downs are ignorant. Here is the citation:

"Damn, by KendrickLamar - Recording released on April 14, 2017, a virtuosic song collection unified by its vernacular authenticity and rhythmic dynamism that offers affecting vignettes capturing the complexity of modern African-American life."

Instead of cherry picking a few well known composers from the previous winners list, you could also contemplate that Ornette Coleman has also won it. There is no reason that Kendrick isn't also a worthy winner, and as innovative as Ornette. It is also a positive thing that they are stepping outside the predominantly jazz and classical genres who have been featured thus far.

"Storytelling has been Lamar’s greatest skill and most primary mission, to put into (lots of) words what it's like to grow up as he did—to articulate, in human terms, the intimate specifics of daily self-defense from your surroundings. Somehow, he’s gotten better."

-- Matthew Trammell, Pitchfork
Nicely observed, I think!


I'm not a fan of Lamar's music -- what I've heard had too many of the features I'm not fond of in contemporary pop for a quick uptake -- but I've definitely been intrigued by interest and adulation he's received from people who I either respect or whose opinions I feel I can't dismiss.
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