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A great Song? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 13th March 2018
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
First get your facts right. 'I will always love you' was written by Dolly Parton and was a No.1 hit in the Country charts in 1974. So the proof about the 'shelf life' of a great song is right there.

1) As far as facts, I referred to Songs from the 90's, not the 70's.
2) Dolly Parton's 1974 version was number one on the Country Charts charts for a very short period of time, never even breaking Billboard's Hot 100 Chart for the year.
3) Whitney Houston's 1992 version spent 14 weeks at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 Chart, making it one of the best-selling singles of all time. It also holds the record for being the best-selling single by a woman in music history. So as far as a hit, it was a much, much, much, MUCH bigger hit than Dolly's original version, and that's why I refereed to Whitney's version.
4) From 74 to 92 is 18 years. From 1992 to today is 26 years.




And that's why I asked if Whitney's version was released today, after being in a time capsule for 26 years, and no one having heard it until 2018, would it be as popular/big a mega hit in 2018's market
Old 13th March 2018
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Indeed. It wouldn't get much radio play today simply because it WAS released a long time ago and changed our present interpretation of mainstream music.

What they call "seminal songs".


A lot of science fiction has played with those concepts. What if that song was never released?

Or more to my point what if the Beatles (or even Chuck Berry) never existed?
I once wrote a short story based on that premise and recently stumbled on this which had some strong similarities. They missed a trick with the music though which imo should have been wildly different to reflect how much they influenced everything.



YouTube
Old 13th March 2018
  #63
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Popular music charts of the times has very little to do the the longevity of a song.

Old 13th March 2018
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
And that's why I asked if Whitney's version was released today, after being in a time capsule for 26 years, and no one having heard it until 2018, would it be as popular/big a mega hit in 2018's market
No, because when it was released in 1992 it coincided with the movie, The Bodyguard, and was vertically marketed along with it.
Old 13th March 2018
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
BOOM! There you have it. You have probably hit on the only route through which Yesterday could realistically find a way into the mass popular consciousness at scale. A Disney movie. I think that could work as the point of initiation. But I think that's the only route likely to work.
Funny that little kids listen to more sophisticated music.

That latest song that won the Oscar, when I heard that, I thought, hmmm, some interesting chords! Thought it must be a Randy Newman song.

There are all sorts of versions, nice Spanish guitar versions, etc.

And I found this, don't know who this lady is, but she does an analysis! And even points out the similarities to Randy Newman.



Quote:
But the Beatles wrote for the context of their time. They knew where the boundary was and where to toe the line and where to nudge over it and where to pull people back with them.
I think they went way over the line by today's standards...

but as I said in this thread or that other one...it all comes down to melodies and words...simple phrases...no matter how weird the production gets, or the arrangement.

Quote:
It doesn't change the quality/content of the thing itself. But everything is a product of when/where it came about. For example I played a date of Irish music the other day and the people there (Americans) didn't know what the hell to make of it. They like the IDEA of Irish music but they have no foundation to engage with it in reality. So a song that, to Irish people, would be like playing "Imagine" and greeted with rapture just gets blank stares and "what the **** was that?!!" It's amazing how programmable people are and how limited they are when presented with things beyond their experience.
True. But I think there are things in general that are common ground everywhere. Melody, rhythm. Are there not many Irish melodies that would go over anywhere? Dylan based some of his songs on Irish folk songs.
Old 13th March 2018
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
3) Whitney Houston's 1992 version spent 14 weeks at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 Chart, making it one of the best-selling singles of all time. It also holds the record for being the best-selling single by a woman in music history. So as far as a hit, it was a much, much, much, MUCH bigger hit than Dolly's original version, and that's why I refereed to Whitney's version.
4) From 74 to 92 is 18 years. From 1992 to today is 26 years.
So the timing for the Whitney version put it way over the top...

they must have thought highly of it...why do an old song like that? Why would people in the 90s get with an old Parton song from the 70s country world?

A song is a song...

So would the Whitney version exactly be hit now? Only if it were dug up as some found thing maybe...

but certainly an Ariana Grande version or Beyonce or whoever could have a hit now with it...or 20 years from now.
Old 13th March 2018
  #67
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Old 13th March 2018
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
but certainly an Ariana Grande version or Beyonce or whoever could have a hit now with it...or 20 years from now.
Maybe they also could have a hit with a song that you wrote....because they are/were established artists already. People need to be aware of it and that involves lots of things that go beyond the song itself.

In retrospect it is easy to analyze why certain songs are hits - hooks/lyrics/maybe a novelty aspect to the presentation. But there are tons of songs that have all that but were not hits.
Old 13th March 2018
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Maybe they also could have a hit with a song that you wrote....because they are/were established artists already. People need to be aware of it and that involves lots of things that go beyond the song itself.

In retrospect it is easy to analyze why certain songs are hits - hooks/lyrics/maybe a novelty aspect to the presentation. But there are tons of songs that have all that but were not hits.
Sure...

but why do you suppose they did that old 70s Parton country song. They must have thought it something. That was far and away Houston's biggest hit...why? Just a fluke? Marketing? Could have been any old song?

One has to think songs are "good", even if it's subjective...

I don't even like that song....but the chorus cannot be denied...God must have written that.
Old 13th March 2018
  #70
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Found out it was Kevin Costner's idea...the song was originally supposed to be What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted, but that was being used in another movie...so Costner (and his secretary) thought of the Parton song, but from Linda Ronstadt's version...would the broken-hearted song have been Houston's biggest hit? Maybe. That's a good song.



Old 13th March 2018
  #71
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
So the timing for the Whitney version put it way over the top...

they must have thought highly of it...why do an old song like that? Why would people in the 90s get with an old Parton song from the 70s country world?

A song is a song...

So would the Whitney version exactly be hit now? Only if it were dug up as some found thing maybe...

but certainly an Ariana Grande version or Beyonce or whoever could have a hit now with it...or 20 years from now.

So what's the answer when half of the replies say yes, a song is a song




and..................................................................................




the other half of the replies say no, it's tied into the time it was released?
Old 13th March 2018
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
So what's the answer when half of the replies say yes, a song is a song




and..................................................................................




the other half of the replies say no, it's tied into the time it was released?
They can be both true, they need not be mutually exclusive.

There is no one right answer that fits all, as 'all' is too varied and complex as a whole to pigeon hole into one neat answer that explains everything.

You might as well ask, "A great food?"...
Old 13th March 2018
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrydpi View Post
So what's the answer when half of the replies say yes, a song is a song
and..................................................................................
the other half of the replies say no, it's tied into the time it was released?
Yeah, it can't really be answered...

but...

I go with a (great) song is a (great) song anyway!

When McCartney wrote Yesterday, he thought it was so solid that he figured he must have stolen it. He knew he had a great song. The Beatle's knew it, George Martin knew it.

If some unknown wrote it at the wrong time and it never became a classic...it's still a great song. If some people don't like it or think it's old people's music, it's still a great song.

Imo.
Old 13th March 2018
  #74
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This is a perfect example of a 'Great Song'.

'Without You' was written by Pete Ham and Tom Evans of Badfinger.

Below are three different interpretations that stretch over two/three decades.






Old 13th March 2018
  #75
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You always need to separate songs from performances and the singer.
Old 13th March 2018
  #76
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You always need to separate songs from performances and the singer.
Hello Bob!!


Please elaborate.
Old 13th March 2018
  #77
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Thread Starter
PS

Unless you mean that the Songs that Motown was putting out could have been just as successful had another singer from the label been used.


Because a GREAT Song is a GREAT SONG


PPS
IMHO, they would have been.
Old 13th March 2018
  #78
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
Sure...

but why do you suppose they did that old 70s Parton country song. They must have thought it something.
Maybe because they liked it? Don't rule it out.

As for 'country' or whatever cliche that comes attached with it, Dolly Parton is not just a great singer and performer but a fantastic and very profilic songwriter. THAT is why folks cover and reinterpret great songs.

Check this. First the Parton original with Jerry Douglas on dobro and then Betty LaVette's take on it. Produced by Joe Henry and feat. Doyle Brahmhall II on guitar among others.



Old 14th March 2018
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
You always need to separate songs from performances and the singer.
Yes, when people start making covers of your songs...you know it's good.

Old 14th March 2018
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Maybe because they liked it? Don't rule it out.
Well.........yeah........they obviously thought it was a "great song"......
Old 14th March 2018
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbird View Post
This is a perfect example of a 'Great Song'.

'Without You' was written by Pete Ham and Tom Evans of Badfinger.
Funny that you mention this song. I've been both on a Badfinger and Nilsson kick lately - actually buying the Complete RCA Collection box set of Nilsson which is just amazing.

However I never really liked 'Without you', if anything I prefer the Badfinger original because it's less mainstream and overblown. HOWEVER I can totally see why Nillsson's version was a big hit, the delivery of the vocal and the arrangement are fantastic, the tune is catchy and heartfelt. But Nillsson's main boyd of work was so versatile and quirky and often this doesn't make for the big hits that the record companies always wanted in any era.

It's interesting that while he was an extremely profilic songwriter Nillsson's two biggest hits were covers - the other was 'Everybody's talking' which Fred Neill wrote. So it definitely is not only about the song. 'Every breath you take' was the biggest hit The Police ever had but it's it's one of my least favorite tunes they did. That's personal opinion of course but also often the simpler stuff (steady beat, singable choruses, catchy riffs) is what makes a hit. Which is fine in its own way.
Old 14th March 2018
  #82
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