The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Is a musician always an artist? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 22nd January 2017
  #451
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
There is the notion that formal training kills the Artist in people. Don't know if that's really true overall, but that does seem to be the way it's been in recent times.
Things may have changed.
I went to music college in the late 70's and was sooo bound up in Jazz-Rock and Fusion, like the other kids in my class, that I completely missed the punk revolution.
I definitely left with a lot of rules filling my head. At the time, if I auditioned for a band I had to keep quiet about my music education as it was deemed uncool by anyone who was interesting. A lot of the most interesting bands at the time (punk to new wave) came out of the art school system.
In the end, I started to make my mark, and quickly tried to divest myself of the straight jacket I'd taken on board thanks to my classical and traditional jazz based tutors at music school.
Overall I think a formal music education is a definite plus. You just need to be able to break out of it and know when to apply it and when not too.
Now me and my contemporaries are 50 yrs old, the ones who have survived and prospered are the ones who know the rules, have been well trained, but are open minded enough to know good music when they hear it - whether or not it's strictly in tune, in time, or following the 'correct' chords and scales.
Old 22nd January 2017
  #452
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
The old Piss Christ routine, eh?

I'd say it passes the test with flying colors. I wouldn't pick my teeth with it, although I suppose you could.

Well, it definitely is an example of shock value. I mean it definitely is an attention-grabber. Plenty of other people might say that deliberately placing any other Jew in a vat of piss is anti-semitic - or maybe that's the point of it all - to create discussion. Killing as "art" was previously mentioned, and holocausts throughout human history have created even more discussion, and this train of thought is making me wish, again, that much less "art" was even created in the first place.

Now I made myself sick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
because what matters is if someone thinks something is art.


I'm just gonna leave you all with this:

Old 22nd January 2017
  #453
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
I'm just gonna leave you all with this:

Not gonna do a Spielberg bash here at all, that's not my intent...but that particular scene, IMO, pretty stupid and pandering.

Melting N*zi's, don't mess w/ god, religious undertones, overtly maudlin Hollywood bombast, etc...I guess it fits with the comic book ridiculousness & sophomoric nature of the whole Raiders series.

Just taking a wild guess, but I'd think Kurosawa would have handled it a bit differently, with a greater and more nuanced statement about the human condition.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #454
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
Well, it definitely is an example of shock value. I mean it definitely is an attention-grabber. Plenty of other people might say that deliberately placing any other Jew in a vat of piss is anti-semitic - or maybe that's the point of it all - to create discussion. Killing as "art" was previously mentioned, and holocausts throughout human history have created even more discussion, and this train of thought is making me wish, again, that much less "art" was even created in the first place.

Now I made myself sick.





I'm just gonna leave you all with this:
I think if you removed all unpleasantness from art, that would be removing a lot of paintings, books, movies, music, plays....

What should art be....just a nice painting of a bouquet of flowers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgressive_art

These conversations are ridiculous, one minute it's that Coldplay and KennyG aren't art, the next it's rolling out "offensive" art to do what, prove that some art isn't art?

Old 23rd January 2017
  #455
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
I think if you removed all unpleasantness from art, that would be removing a lot of paintings, books, movies, music, plays....

What should art be....just a nice painting of a bouquet of flowers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgressive_art

These conversations are ridiculous, one minute it's that Coldplay and KennyG aren't art, the next it's rolling out "offensive" art to do what, prove that some art isn't art?

Lest we not forget, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a riot in its Paris premiere, in 1913, so apoplectic the audience was in being outraged by its inherent unpleasantness, ostensibly because of all the new fangled things that the glitterati couldn't stomach. for whatever reason.

...yet, a mere three decades later, in 1940, it was featured in Fantasia - a Disney production no less, perhaps the most milquetoast representation for art in general, Dumbo withstanding, which was a brilliant and powerful artistic statement in any capacity.

I think the moral of the story is, is to be inclusive of all statements of art, not necessarily to say one likes it or not, but, that there maybe merit that one perhaps misses in some way. Art is what it is to the beholder, and that stretches a broad diverse territory, not one that necessarily everyone's in agreement with from the get go, but ultimately doesn't preclude it from being art.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #456
Lives for gear
All art must be preceded by a certain mechanical expertness.

-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


&

There are artists who transform the sun into a yellow spot, but there are others who, thanks to their art and intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun

-Pablo Picasso

Last edited by WildOneTruss1; 23rd January 2017 at 08:19 AM.. Reason: added another quote
Old 23rd January 2017
  #457
Lives for gear
 
Zyzygis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
There is the notion that formal training kills the Artist in people. Don't know if that's really true overall, but that does seem to be the way it's been in recent times.
I guess there are those who make art because they are artists, then there are those who are artists because they make art and sometimes the two overlap.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #458
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
if you removed all unpleasantness from art
No, you misunderstood - under your logic, killing gypsies, gays, Jews, Poles, etc. systematically is an art if someone thinks it is.

I am saying that anything/everything obviously can't be an art, including stuff that merely creates conversation or outrage, and the people who thinks this sh*t is art are only destroying themselves - I mentioned nothing of "removing" anything from art.

But again, I will say that I wouldn't be missing out on anything if things like pissing on someone's face, or flag, or symbols, etc. weren't submitted for artistic consideration. I love "unpleasant" or "depraved" or other unsettling artwork, but human piss is human piss. You can mix that with anything - but it won't elevate it to something more than biological waste.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #459
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
I love "unpleasant" or "depraved" or other unsettling artwork, but human piss is human piss. You can mix that with anything - but it won't elevate it to something more than biological waste.
Hey, if a piss show is good enough for the potus then it must be classy!
Old 24th January 2017
  #460
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
No, you misunderstood - under your logic, killing gypsies, gays, Jews, Poles, etc. systematically is an art if someone thinks it is.

I am saying that anything/everything obviously can't be an art, including stuff that merely creates conversation or outrage, and the people who thinks this sh*t is art are only destroying themselves - I mentioned nothing of "removing" anything from art.

But again, I will say that I wouldn't be missing out on anything if things like pissing on someone's face, or flag, or symbols, etc. weren't submitted for artistic consideration. I love "unpleasant" or "depraved" or other unsettling artwork, but human piss is human piss. You can mix that with anything - but it won't elevate it to something more than biological waste.
Can something be art if no one thinks it is?

I think taking the conversation to the point of murder is pretty ridiculous. But even if someone did that as "art", to say it's not art means what?

I personally think the word art is just a word. It's not like things are being christened as anything special. You could take the Mona Lisa and crumple it up and throw it in a dumpster.....and now that art is garbage, in with all that other waste and filth. Is it still art? Or is it garbage? Or is it art that was thrown in the garbage? What if the urine in the Piss Christ wasn't urine but just colored blessed water? What if it was now called The Immaculate and Beautiful Christ? Looks exactly the same, but now is "elevated" to art? Are these sorts of questions useful....or ridiculous?
Old 24th January 2017
  #461
Lives for gear
 

Here's some art made with garbage.

Check Out This Amazing Art Made From Garbage! - Mindhut - SparkNotes

Old 24th January 2017
  #462
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post

that made me think of this:
Old 24th January 2017
  #463
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Not gonna do a Spielberg bash here at all, that's not my intent...but that particular scene, IMO, pretty stupid and pandering.

Melting N*zi's, don't mess w/ god, religious undertones, overtly maudlin Hollywood bombast, etc...I guess it fits with the comic book ridiculousness & sophomoric nature of the whole Raiders series.

Just taking a wild guess, but I'd think Kurosawa would have handled it a bit differently, with a greater and more nuanced statement about the human condition.
George Lucas' story though
Old 24th January 2017
  #464
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
George Lucas' story though
Ironic you mention him in the midst of my post, in that he is a blatant Kurosawa ripoff artist...
Old 24th January 2017
  #465
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Ironic you mention him in the midst of my post, in that he is a blatant Kurosawa ripoff artist...
I think Lucas deserves credit for star wars as well as the story arch of the first trilogy though. Not in that it was all new, but the eseeing was and it was well done.

If this stuff interests you I highly recommend reading the interview with kurtz .... Puts all of this in a good perspective.
Old 24th January 2017
  #467
Lives for gear
 
cavern's Avatar
 

Art is as beauty in the eye of the beholder.
Everything is art.
Nothing is art.
Some of it is art.
Old 24th January 2017
  #468
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Thanks...yeah I'm somewhat interested in that. It's a great interview, and it covers a lot of ground, and does give a lot of insights from an obvious insider of the industry, who knows the ins and outs and the intricacies of all the various machinations, as well as having a thorough historical knowledge and deep cultural perspectives - all in all it was highly informative. Thanks again for turning me onto it.

I found it surprising though how little Kurtz mentions Kurosawa in all of the talk about Star Wars though, more so Flash Gordon!...IDK, so much is lifted from Kurosawa, so much of the mojo, so much of the sublime stuff and nuance, as well as stylistic nods.

Was an early fan of George Lucas, like THX 1138 and American Graffiti, and the Star Wars trilogy - though, a lot came from the enthusiasm I had for it when I was younger - it doesn't quite hold up as well for me now a days, like other things like the Godfather I & II, all the Scorsese and David Lean stuff, Tarantino, etc - it seems juvenile to me now, I don't know why...and now I find the whole franchise with the new movies, the prequels or whatnot sort of unbearable and unwatchable for some reason.
Old 24th January 2017
  #469
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
it seems juvenile to me now, I don't know why...and now I find the whole franchise with the new movies, the prequels or whatnot sort of unbearable and unwatchable for some reason.
My theory on why they are unwatchable, unbearable, and juvenile is.......because that's exactly what they are! And always were. Just dumb comic book crap for kids. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Old 24th January 2017
  #470
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
My theory on why they are unwatchable, unbearable, and juvenile is.......because that's exactly what they are! And always were. Just dumb comic book crap for kids. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I can still watch Babar, or Bambi, or Dumbo, or the Jay Ward stuff, things ostensibly for kids and still enjoy it and get something out of it. Star Wars, not quite the same.

I don't know if it's just that per se...
Old 24th January 2017
  #471
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Thanks...yeah I'm somewhat interested in that. It's a great interview, and it covers a lot of ground, and does give a lot of insights from an obvious insider of the industry, who knows the ins and outs and the intricacies of all the various machinations, as well as having a thorough historical knowledge and deep cultural perspectives - all in all it was highly informative. Thanks again for turning me onto it.

I found it surprising though how little Kurtz mentions Kurosawa in all of the talk about Star Wars though, more so Flash Gordon!...IDK, so much is lifted from Kurosawa, so much of the mojo, so much of the sublime stuff and nuance, as well as stylistic nods.
I think it might have been because of the episodic nature of the trilogy. Anyway, I thought it was interesting how he described that there was change after Lucas had done Indy, and it shows if you know the movies and think about it; Jedi is noticeably different from the other two in both tone and content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Was an early fan of George Lucas, like THX 1138 and American Graffiti, and the Star Wars trilogy - though, a lot came from the enthusiasm I had for it when I was younger - it doesn't quite hold up as well for me now a days, like other things like the Godfather I & II, all the Scorsese and David Lean stuff, Tarantino, etc - it seems juvenile to me now, I don't know why...and now I find the whole franchise with the new movies, the prequels or whatnot sort of unbearable and unwatchable for some reason.
I don't really think it's entirely fair to compare a sci-fi / fantasy film with sound in space, lasers, death stars and wookies to a period piece like Godfather, or gritty 'realist' gangster films like Tarantino's. It's just so wildly different.

Obviously fx are dated, and I think that makes a big difference except maybe for hardcore fans or kids that haven't seen better visuals yet (if they exist). I think some of the acting is also a bit heavy-handed, or overly clear, but I think that's ok actually. It's just a different style.

And I think that was also part of the greatness of the films; it was absolutely clear what the themes were and how the protagonists expressed them in a sense, but without it being completely stupid. But sure, times have changed and we're used to other ways of telling stories these days.

But just for reference: Watch some "young adult" science fiction of today and tell me with a straight face it's on par with the original trilogy. I really don't think it is. I think it's far, far "worse" (or less good... no, actually I think young adult sci fi sucks, whereas Star Wars is still awesome). So while it might not "hold up" in some ways, I think it actually still does if one can look past the old fx and somewhat older style of acting; then I think it's quite a lot better actually.
Old 24th January 2017
  #472
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I can still watch Babar, or Bambi, or Dumbo, or the Jay Ward stuff, things ostensibly for kids and still enjoy it and get something out of it. Star Wars, not quite the same.
Not sure Babar is trying to bite off the same amount of mythology either though.
Old 24th January 2017
  #473
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I think it might have been because of the episodic nature of the trilogy. Anyway, I thought it was interesting how he described that there was change after Lucas had done Indy, and it shows if you know the movies and think about it; Jedi is noticeably different from the other two in both tone and content.



I don't really think it's entirely fair to compare a sci-fi / fantasy film with sound in space, lasers, death stars and wookies to a period piece like Godfather, or gritty 'realist' gangster films like Tarantino's. It's just so wildly different.

Obviously fx are dated, and I think that makes a big difference except maybe for hardcore fans or kids that haven't seen better visuals yet (if they exist). I think some of the acting is also a bit heavy-handed, or overly clear, but I think that's ok actually. It's just a different style.

And I think that was also part of the greatness of the films; it was absolutely clear what the themes were and how the protagonists expressed them in a sense, but without it being completely stupid. But sure, times have changed and we're used to other ways of telling stories these days.

But just for reference: Watch some "young adult" science fiction of today and tell me with a straight face it's on par with the original trilogy. I really don't think it is. I think it's far, far "worse" (or less good... no, actually I think young adult sci fi sucks, whereas Star Wars is still awesome). So while it might not "hold up" in some ways, I think it actually still does if one can look past the old fx and somewhat older style of acting; then I think it's quite a lot better actually.
Of course I'm comparing apples and oranges if I'm invoking Scorsese, FFC and others as counterpoints to my current ambivalence about Star Wars. But in a sense, it's all about what still piques one's interest and emotions regardless of subject matter or genre.

Perhaps a better analogy would have been Blade Runner or 2001...though again not entirely the same, but closer to the boat, where those two I don't have the same reticence and disinterest as I currently have with Star Wars.

...IDK, maybe it's the forced campiness, or perhaps the overwhelming cultishness of its success, maybe the incessantly over hyped marketing and branding, etc. I'm just not into it, despite all the incredible aspects it obviously has.

Regarding Babar - yeah, different scope and scale no doubt. But enjoyment isn't just necessarily about that. If those were absolute measures, it would be hard for many pianists to hold up to Oscar Peterson, but frankly sometimes he doesn't move me at all, if you catch my drift.

That said, I don't disparage others who are freakin' crazy about Star Wars, there are throngs and legions of those folks...it's cool, ain't nothing wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea...
Old 24th January 2017
  #474
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by oche ecaps View Post
Hey, if a piss show is good enough for the potus then it must be classy!
Exactly - if the POTUS thinks something is art, I shouldn't have to.

Same goes for moral judgement calls, like the idiots protecting rapists or pedophiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
to say it's not art means what?
Well, yes - OP's question is a moot point, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I can still watch Babar, or Bambi, or Dumbo, or the Jay Ward stuff, things ostensibly for kids and still enjoy it and get something out of it. Star Wars, not quite the same.
I was never really interested in Star Wars as a kid, but it grew on me when the X-Wing and Tie Fighter games were released. Star Trek should have jumped on that 3D Space-simulator/exploration bandwagon years ago, the fools!
Old 25th January 2017
  #475
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I can still watch Babar, or Bambi, or Dumbo, or the Jay Ward stuff, things ostensibly for kids and still enjoy it and get something out of it. Star Wars, not quite the same.

I don't know if it's just that per se...
I didn't mean to impy that kid stuff is necessarily dumb, or that dumb stuff is necessarily dumb. Just that you are not at all alone in thinking Star Wars ain't all that.
Old 25th January 2017
  #476
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Of course I'm comparing apples and oranges if I'm invoking Scorsese, FFC and others as counterpoints to my current ambivalence about Star Wars. But in a sense, it's all about what still piques one's interest and emotions regardless of subject matter or genre.
Sure.... From the standpoint of "what do I enjoy" of course there's no real argument to be made either way. I like South Park, Family Guy (while it was still fresh) and Aqua Teen Hunger Force. I'm sure arguments can be made for why some of it isn't funny or good, yet I like it and laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Perhaps a better analogy would have been Blade Runner or 2001...though again not entirely the same, but closer to the boat, where those two I don't have the same reticence and disinterest as I currently have with Star Wars.
I still think the comparisons are a bit off, but I know what you're getting at. Blade Runner is a spectacular film in my opinion, but it too bites off less that Star Wars does in terms of themes. Not that it makes one or the other inherently better or more interesting (in this case), but it makes for a difficult comparison.

While we're digressing, you and I might have diametrically opposed views on Star Wars vs 2001 then. That film bored me the first time I saw it (I was too young), and has never begun to interest me. To me it's a film that is close to flawless in every aspect except for the writing and directional choice for the characters, which then ends up ruining it (for me). I even think it's incredibly overrated (because it's rated extremely high). But at any rate, I tried to get through it and feel something again in 2016, at least 2-3 times, beginning to end, and it does absolutely nothing for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...IDK, maybe it's the forced campiness, or perhaps the overwhelming cultishness of its success, maybe the incessantly over hyped marketing and branding, etc. I'm just not into it, despite all the incredible aspects it obviously has.
I think you're touching upon something really interesting actually, something that oddly enough brings us back on-topic. To me, the prequels were 'acceptable' until the last prequel, in the sense that I told myself they weren't garbage and so on, but once the "NOOOOOOO" showed up on screen I was done. To me, that experience tainted the entire franchise. So what I think is interesting is how I likely would have revered the original trilogy more if only it and perhaps the literature existed. Something about the uniqueness of the universe and story. Now it's just as you imply overly commercialized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Regarding Babar - yeah, different scope and scale no doubt. But enjoyment isn't just necessarily about that. If those were absolute measures, it would be hard for many pianists to hold up to Oscar Peterson, but frankly sometimes he doesn't move me at all, if you catch my drift.
I loved Babar as a kid....
Old 29th January 2017
  #477
I know this isn't answering your question but I'm currently listening to some of your music and you definitely fall under your description of an artist. Keep doing your thing!
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump