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Led Zeppelin now in court over Stairway Analog Processors (HW)
Old 18th June 2016
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbvoxx View Post
If this actually ends up paying
a settlement to the Californians I'll be shocked and amazed.
Don't you mean Dazed and Confused?
Old 18th June 2016
  #32
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JoeyM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by renaker View Post
That was well said, me thinks.

Did Zeppelin steal it? Of course! Look at all the iconic images Led Zeppelin already used, like the "Fallen Angel" thing, that wasn't original, or the iconic images in the windows on Physical Graffitti, or the Hindenberg crashing for cripe's sake. They were okay with other peoples' media.

Sure that pattern on Stairway went to better places musically within the song, but that's John Paul Jones and his mellotron for you

I'm definitely a John Paul Jones fan
Old 18th June 2016
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky Karma View Post
I agree with you but the Blurred Lines - Got To Give It Up lawsuit was exactly that. Almost everything was different - different key, chord progression, lyrics and melody. The vibe - production, instrumentation, and someone doing a falsetto whoo every once in a while somehow led to a win for the Gaye family.
Yes, that turned out to be an interesting case for a change. They sued for copying the vibe and won, which I don't feel good about as it sets a rough precedent. It was established that they did set out to write a song like Give It Up, and it seemed the jury did not fully understand the information presented, and they took that intent as enough for a guilty verdict.

I'm all for lawsuits when parts of audio are fully lifted carte blanche, and the fact that it was processed through some fx being enough for the defendant to claim it's not the same is ridiculous. Same with compositions that have clearly taken too much from the source inspiration. But there are far too many instances of vibe or atmosphere being similar that don't warrant a lawsuit, and the Blurred Lines case will probably open the door to some real nuisance suits, because it doesn't speak of lyrics or music, it's more a production issue. But the productions aren't copywritten works (although the actual recording is). Gamble and Huff suing Todd Rundgren or Hall & Oates not for stealing parts of a song but for clearly copping the Philly vibe of The O'Jays in the production? AC/DC suing whoever for a song with a classic Angus type opening riff even though it doesn't actually take from any AC/DC riff in particular, but it brings Hells Bells to mind?

Even though I'm not a fan of Thicke or Williams, and the first time I heard Blurred Lines I thought, hey that's quite a cop of Give It Up, I think the verdict was a mistake. The damages did get substantially lowered, then the Gaye estate started making noise about suing for more, and I don't know if the appeal has taken place yet. But the main reason being able to sue for something other than music or lyrics, and other than as a production as opposed to copyright issue, is a bad idea is because it's lawyers who care about it more than artists, and it's not about what's right. It becomes about how much can I get for my client.
Old 19th June 2016
  #34
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T_R_S's Avatar
[QUOTE=JoeyM;11970774]T or the Hindenberg crashing for cripe's sake./QUOTE]


News/current events cannot be claimed as a copyright - though Universal & Clear Channel do try to do it.

fwiw STH is over 40 years old they should have lawsuit a while ago
Old 19th June 2016
  #35
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JoeyM's Avatar
[QUOTE=T_R_S;11971425]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM View Post
T or the Hindenberg crashing for cripe's sake./QUOTE]


News/current events cannot be claimed as a copyright - though Universal & Clear Channel do try to do it.

fwiw STH is over 40 years old they should have lawsuit a while ago
Oh yeah, both sides of this have compelling arguments. Stairway to Heaven is a lot more than that one pattern, a lot more. If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now - that part has the same descending guitar the Beatles did on Abbey Road tune You Never Give Me Your Money where it's one sweet dream, came true (descending riff starts there), today.... Led Zeppelin isn't all ripoff, but there's part clearly done by others years earlier. And was it When the Levee Breaks it took Zeppelin a while to give credit and whatnot to Memphis Minnie? And they made a mess of giving credit when that tune may have been written by someone else and it wasn't the same tune LZ brought to fruition?

Page and Jones, as proper studio musicians made them into great works, and many other tunes of course. And lawyers will be lawyers. Maybe living in Aleister Crowley's house gave Page some bad Juju or something

I dunno! Like everyone else I'll be interested in seeing how this wraps up.
Old 19th June 2016
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyM View Post
Sure that pattern on Stairway went to better places musically within the song, but that's John Paul Jones and his mellotron for you
Live only. The studio version is 4 overdubbed recorders.
Old 19th June 2016
  #37
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JoeyM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronman View Post
Live only. The studio version is 4 overdubbed recorders.
You're right; thanks for the correction
Old 19th June 2016
  #38
Gear Head
 

Good artists create, great artists steal.

By this lawsuits' logic every blues guitarist should be suing each other. Watch any pensado's place interview, he always says "how can I steal that and make it my own"

If that little bit of similarity is enough to win a lawsuit then I'm throwing all of my gear in the trash because America will officially have killed music.
Old 19th June 2016
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Yes they do have those laws in the U.S. it depends on the suit. Whenever there is monetary damages in the balance it is my understanding the defendant can counter sue for legal fees in the event of summary judgements in their favor. If the case is civil punitive damages (pain and suffering) I don't think they can counter-sue for "legal fees". However if the court finds for the defense in civil punitive cases, the defendant can actually later sure the plaintiff for pain and suffering. In other words the defense can actually claim the suit and court proceedings put them through emotional distress or caused their reputation to be tarnished.... Weird?? but only in a America. Spirit will owe big here. Probably why they didn't sue for all these years. Someone is desperate last ditch effort. They could be bankrupt, so that may be the reason they are desperate here. And if they lose they can say they are bankrupt we can't pay Zeps legal fees. And Zep is not going to care. they just want their name cleared.

Unless spirit has some smoking gun or some confession by page/plant, how can they win? The melody is not the same, the lyrics are non existent, the chord progression is not the same. Only the "vibe" is that same.. Can you sue over vibe? No you can't. If so chuck berry would own early stones and beach boys songs and he would own the rights to revolution or back in the USSR and 1000s of other songs. But you can't patent to copy-write a musical vibe.
Don't forget this is California, the jury nullification state. All bets are off with a "jury of your peers" here, just ask OJ.
Old 19th June 2016
  #40
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JoeyM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Don't forget this is California, the jury nullification state. All bets are off with a "jury of your peers" here, just ask OJ.
Is it just me, or is it kind of eerie it's California and they're dealing with estate of Randy California?

Going To California with an aching in my heart
Old 19th June 2016
  #41
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Don't forget this is California, the jury nullification state. All bets are off with a "jury of your peers" here, just ask OJ.
good point,
I suppose anything is possible in any court

we'll see what happens. but if zep loses there will appeal after appeal after appeal.
so it will never be resolved
Old 20th June 2016
  #42
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
good point,
I suppose anything is possible in any court

we'll see what happens. but if zep loses there will appeal after appeal after appeal.
so it will never be resolved
...nope. It won't be forever, and it will be resolved one way or another.

The one case that did make it to the Supreme Court was Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc - the infamous 2 Live Crew Pretty Woman parody suit.
While it did make it to the Supreme Court, it was remanded back to the Court of Appeals, and eventually settled.

This is a stupid, pointless case, much like blurred lines, where ultimately the biggest winners are the lawyers.

As to how it'll go - it's all a matter of who has the better lawyers and musicologists on their side. Unlike for blurred lines where you had a douch#bag buffoon the Gaye Estate could pile on, Robin Thicke that is, this case presents no obvious advantage for either side, other than I guess LZ's fame.
Old 23rd June 2016
  #43
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JoeyM's Avatar
ZEPPELIN WINS!

Disclaimer: I'd have cheered either side, but Randy California himself and not his heirs might have evoked a different outcome.
Old 26th June 2016
  #44
Zep won by preventing the jury from hearing both songs. All they heard was BS about the songs, but no music.

That's like having the DA loose all the evidence before a murder trial, or the LAPD messing up lab samples...
Old 26th June 2016
  #45
Gear doesn't kill people.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Zep won by preventing the jury from hearing both songs. All they heard was BS about the songs, but no music.

That's like having the DA loose all the evidence before a murder trial, or the LAPD messing up lab samples...
Um no. The jury did hear both songs. It was just a nonsense lawsuit is all.
Old 26th June 2016
  #46
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post
Um no. The jury did hear both songs. It was just a nonsense lawsuit is all.
Well I've read both.....here:

"The jury — eight California citizens — delivered its verdict that the plaintiff owned the copyright to "Taurus" and that Led Zeppelin members indeed heard it, but that there was no substantial similarity in the extrinsic elements of "Taurus" and "Stairway." The decision came after the jury took one last listen of both songs. Within a half hour of doing so, the jury had made up its mind."

BUT....this article tells a different story:

What the Stairway to Heaven Jury Didn't Hear - Bloomberg

Saying jury only heard sheet music performed.
Old 27th June 2016
  #47
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Hate to break people the bad news about "OJ" but I watched all of that. Some common sense/fact observations:

-The prosecutors were incompetent.
-Get to the point
-The glove DIDN'T fit.
-That defense attorney outfit was armed KNOWING how incompetent the prosecution was.

The jury did their job. The idea is supposed to be "beyond a doubt" which there was much doubt.

Doesn't mean he didn't do it, but it WAS NOT PROVEN!

All the jurors thought he was guilty, but that's not how it's supposed to work.

Now, it's "guilty until proven innocent" unless you are the police, then it's the opposite.

Now, they were "acquitted" and it's over. Boo hoo.
Old 27th June 2016
  #48
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovessuperstrats View Post
Hate to break people the bad news about "OJ" but I watched all of that. Some common sense/fact observations:

-The prosecutors were incompetent.
-Get to the point
-The glove DIDN'T fit.
-That defense attorney outfit was armed KNOWING how incompetent the prosecution was.

The jury did their job. The idea is supposed to be "beyond a doubt" which there was much doubt.

Doesn't mean he didn't do it, but it WAS NOT PROVEN!

All the jurors thought he was guilty, but that's not how it's supposed to work.

Now, it's "guilty until proven innocent" unless you are the police, then it's the opposite.

Now, they were "acquitted" and it's over. Boo hoo.
Yeah the jury did their job....one went on a radio show and when asked about the DNA she said" DNA smcheeNA"

Lol

A true jury of his peers.

At least Kharma is a bitch!

TH
Old 27th June 2016
  #49
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Well, ok, what else would you rather have?

It's a pretty unique song. It's probably racist if you think it should be something else.
Old 4th July 2016
  #50
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JoeyM's Avatar
Should play them both backwards now We used to do that in High School as DJs on the High School radio station (the audience was a maximum security prison on the outskirts of town), and it is kind of strange the messages have one topic
Old 1 week ago
  #51
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dedindi's Avatar
Old 1 week ago
  #52
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cavern's Avatar
 

What about the lyrics, the chorus, the build up, the guitar solo, the great ending.
Who did ZEP steal those from.
Old 1 week ago
  #53
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PdotDdot's Avatar
Look, there are twelve tones and if you use any of them you are copying someone from somewhere.

Sorry, had to say this. I will go back to my cave now.
Old 1 week ago
  #54
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