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Who owns a gun?
Old 24th April 2007
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post


cool gig, and some nice credits you got there.
Old 24th April 2007
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
There are a hundred scenarios I can think of. We're just speculating, of course, but if Cho anticipated an armed student cutting short his rampage he might have increased his firepower and lethality in a number of ways I'm sure you can figure out.

this is all just speculation, so just skip this part


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
When a college encourages students to bear arms on campus. In the wake of Virginia Tech, some have suggested that schools should do this. I think it's a terrible idea. Have more police if you need them, but don't make students into police.


Its not making students into police, its letting students take responsibility for their safety if they so choose. I don't see anything wrong with that. Don't encourage it or discourage it, simply allow CCW carriers to carry on campus.

I hope you realize the Supreme Court has ruled multiple times that the police have no duty to protect the individual, only the public as a whole. So why not allow college students to protect themselves? Or at least teachers and faculty?
Old 24th April 2007
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
this is all just speculation, so just skip this part
You asked a speculative question, I answered it in a way you didn't expect so you say "just skip this part." That's the point - if you go back in history and change one thing, you cannot predict what will come of it. It may turn out the way you want, it may not. Arming a student body may turn out just the way you think it would, or maybe it won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
Its not making students into police, its letting students take responsibility for their safety if they so choose. I don't see anything wrong with that. Don't encourage it or discourage it, simply allow CCW carriers to carry on campus.
That's the point of view of students who agree with you, and that will allienate them from students who disagree with you. You're segregating students into seperate groups (as if they're not already segregated enough by other factors), and you are depriving them of the pleasure of each other's company. You may also be fueling an arms race between students with guns and potential criminals who will want to out-gun them. You may also be elevating the number of unintended gun deaths on campus from the students' own guns, as many studies suggest. You're also separating schools into gun schools and non-gun schools, which will change admissions profiles and campus culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
I hope you realize the Supreme Court has ruled multiple times that the police have no duty to protect the individual, only the public as a whole. So why not allow college students to protect themselves? Or at least teachers and faculty?
I think they're better protected by a sophisticated third party security force than guns in pockets.

If someone asked me what the very best solution is for mastering a mix, I would also recommend hiring a really great mastering engineer.

I'm not against protecting the students, I'm for protecting them as securely as possible. I think they're less safe walking around with guns, and more safe walking around a quietly fortified campus that includes sophisticated equipment and well-trained guards with guns.

Why should we indulge our best mixes to hired guns in the form mastering engineers, and do any less for student security?
Old 24th April 2007
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
If Cho was on a suicide rampage, He was intending to kill as many as was possible. He perhaps couls have bought a rifle, but he would not have been as inconspicuous when travelling across the campus- The only other alternative would have been a bomb or fire- these would have required pre-planning, but would have been much more difficult to arrange.
Those are not the only other alternatives. This really isn't the place to discuss more lethal alternatives; ironically, I'm sure they're discussed in classes at Virginia Tech and other strong science schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
A possible scenario - what if a law enforcement officer is going on campus off-duty? is allowed (and recommended) to concealed carry- what if he is taking, or teaching a course at the school? What about a security guard?
If the law enforcement officer is going on campus off-duty or is taking or teaching a class, I think it's more than appropriate for that person to pack.

As for the security guard, that depends on their background. There are security guards, and then there are SECURITY GUARDS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Since Bennett has no really authority on the subject- he is spitballing- He is just offering an opinion. He has said some stupid things in the past, so to not expect foolish comments from him in the present is somthing to undertake at your own peril.
Sadly, a fat man with a reassuring voice in a suit bloviating on national television is something too many people undertake to their own peril.
Old 24th April 2007
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
You asked a speculative question, I answered it in a way you didn't expect so you say "just skip this part." That's the point - if you go back in history and change one thing, you cannot predict what will come of it. It may turn out the way you want, it may not. Arming a student body may turn out just the way you think it would, or maybe it won't.


That's the point of view of students who agree with you, and that will allienate them from students who disagree with you. You're segregating students into seperate groups (as if they're not already segregated enough by other factors), and you are depriving them of the pleasure of each other's company. You may also be fueling an arms race between students with guns and potential criminals who will want to out-gun them. You may also be elevating the number of unintended gun deaths on campus from the students' own guns, as many studies suggest. You're also separating schools into gun schools and non-gun schools, which will change admissions profiles and campus culture.

I think they're better protected by a sophisticated third party security force than guns in pockets.

If someone asked me what the very best solution is for mastering a mix, I would also recommend hiring a really great mastering engineer.

I'm not against protecting the students, I'm for protecting them as securely as possible. I think they're less safe walking around with guns, and more safe walking around a quietly fortified campus with well-trained ex-military guards with guns.

Why should we indulge our best mixes to hired guns in the form mastering engineers, and do any less for student security?
The problem with your security guard notion is unless there is a guard in each class room, or say separated by 30 yards, they can't get there fast enough. And comparing it to a mastering engineer is ridiculous- The guards are required indefinitely, a mastering enginner needs at most 3 days to do an album.

And who is going to pay for these guards? a College campus is an area which is generally speaking about a square mile...

Criminals and miscreants are only allowed to prevail when their victims cannot defend themselves. This has been proven repeatedly throughout history. To believe that you do not have the duty to defend yourself is slavery, plain and simple.

Fortified campuses', where woulld that money come from? the magic freedom fairy...

the only way to stop evil is to be stronger than it. As cockroaches run from the light, we must be light, if we are, evil cannot prevail.

charles maynes

and has been been said to me before- "It would suck to be a terrorist in your neighborhood" yes it would.
Old 24th April 2007
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
Those are not the only other alternatives. This really isn't the place to discuss more lethal alternatives; ironically, I'm sure they're discussed in classes at Virginia Tech and other strong science schools.

If the law enforcement officer is going on campus off-duty or is taking or teaching a class, I think it's more than appropriate for that person to pack.

As for the security guard, that depends on their background. There are security guards, and then there are SECURITY GUARDS.

Sadly, a fat man with a reassuring voice in a suit bloviating on national television is something too many people undertake to their own peril.
LEO were not allowed to carry on campus without prior authorization as I understand...
I think off duty carry was not allowed on campus.

As to the first comment- i.e. techniques: This has and is being discussed allover- if search you can find it- but lets just say no a$$hat is going get much here...

charles maynes
Old 24th April 2007
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
The problem with your security guard notion is unless there is a guard in each class room, or say separated by 30 yards, they can't get there fast enough.

And who is going to pay for these guards? a College campus is an area which is generally speaking about a square mile...
Well, you know, it's like the "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms" argument. No solution is perfect. So it's a matter of choosing the least imperfect solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Criminals and miscreants are only allowed to prevail when their victims cannot defend themselves. This has been proven repeatedly throughout history. To believe that you do not have the duty to defend yourself is slavery, plain and simple.
I didn't have a gun when I went to college and I don't think that turned me into a slave or made me feel like a slave. Too much homework made me feel like a slave, and uncomfortable beds freshman year made me feel like slave.

That age, 18-22, when people are just starting to get a sense of who they are, isn't the most stable time in life for many. When I think back to my own experience, I just don't think I would have been as safe had the campus been saturated with students packing lethal weapons.
Old 24th April 2007
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Fortified campuses', where woulld that money come from? the magic freedom fairy...
The money comes from student tuition, alumni, and the college's endowment and investments.

My campus was secure, and has beefed up security since I graduated. The campus uses high tech ID cards for gaining access to buildings and dorm areas, its own police force, protective architecture, and other security mechanisms. Works pretty well, no magic freedom fairy neccessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
LEO were not allowed to carry on campus without prior authorization as I understand...
I think off duty carry was not allowed on campus.
I agree that that's a mistake. I know of a few examples myself where off-duty LEO saved the day, sometimes by simply being there, other times by brandishing force.
Old 24th April 2007
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
You asked a speculative question, I answered it in a way you didn't expect so you say "just skip this part." That's the point - if you go back in history and change one thing, you cannot predict what will come of it. It may turn out the way you want, it may not. Arming a student body may turn out just the way you think it would, or maybe it won't.

its a speculative question. i disagree with what your theory is, but lets just move on to other things that aren't so speculative...we can what if all day long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
That's the point of view of students who agree with you, and that will allienate them from students who disagree with you. You're segregating students into seperate groups (as if they're not already segregated enough by other factors), and you are depriving them of the pleasure of each other's company. You may also be fueling an arms race between students with guns and potential criminals who will want to out-gun them. You may also be elevating the number of unintended gun deaths on campus from the students' own guns, as many studies suggest. You're also separating schools into gun schools and non-gun schools, which will change admissions profiles and campus culture.


simply allowing CCW permit holders to carry on campus? no way thats affecting campus culture to the degree you think. and thats all i think should happen, just allow those who wish to go and get their permit to do so and carry on campus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
I think they're better protected by a sophisticated third party security force than guns in pockets.

If someone asked me what the very best solution is for mastering a mix, I would also recommend hiring a really great mastering engineer.


Ah yes, but who is going to pay for this sophisticated force? If we're talking state universities, some will be on the taxpayers. but the majority will be reflected in tuition costs which are already through the roof and steady climbing. so lets go ahead and make higher education that much more unattainable for more people...all in the name of having armed guards in every hallway? LOL, talk about affecting campus culture and admissions profiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
I'm not against protecting the students, I'm for protecting them as securely as possible. I think they're less safe walking around with guns, and more safe walking around a quietly fortified campus that includes sophisticated equipment and well-trained guards with guns.

No, you're not against protecting the students, you're against the students protecting themselves.

Lets be honest here, I doubt any universities are going to start "fortifying" their campuses or having armed guards in every dorm. The cost would be substantial, armed guards don't come cheap. And they already have campus police (who do as good a job as the regular police )

So you want all these armed guards and fortified campuses, yet you go on about affecting campus culture? Seems to me your way is going to affect campus culture and such in a much greater way than what I'm proposing, simply allowing CCW holders to carry on campus. Yet you're talking about armed guards.
Old 24th April 2007
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
The money comes from student tuition, alumni, and the college's endowment and investments.

My campus was secure, and has beefed up security since I graduated. The campus uses high tech ID cards for gaining access to buildings and dorm areas, its own police force, protective architecture, and other security mechanisms. Works pretty well, no magic freedom fairy neccessary.
I do not know where you went to school, but most public colleges would not have the money for such things- I was at SDSU last week, and was amazed at the state of some parts of the campus. And keycards are very difficult with the volume of hall traffic- as the VT gunman was a student, he would have had a card if such precuations were in place. Also the expense of outfitting 20,000 students is not at all trivial.

Now what would be an excellent precaution is psych evals and background checks for all students and personel. that would be easily paid for by fees on entrance, and would prevent the most severe nut-cases from getting entry-

charles maynes
Old 24th April 2007
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
Well, you know, it's like the "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms" argument. No solution is perfect. So it's a matter of choosing the least imperfect solution.

its not that your solution is imperfect, its just unrealistic and very short sighted. where does the money come from?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
That age, 18-22, when people are just starting to get a sense of who they are, isn't the most stable time in life for many. When I think back to my own experience, I just don't think I would have been as safe had the campus been saturated with students packing lethal weapons.

i don't get this idea that you have that all of a sudden colleges will be "saturated" with gun owners? thats just paranoid grandstanding. all people are saying is to allow those who have CCW permits to carry on campus. it will still be a very small minority of students. and it is CONCEALED carry, so its not going to affect culture on campus any more than your armed guards idea. a lot of college kids are already experienced and safe gun owners and CCW holders, just can't carry on campus.

point is, there isn't going to be this "saturation" of gun owners all of a sudden.
Old 24th April 2007
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
The money comes from student tuition, alumni, and the college's endowment and investments.


.


you better believe that money isn't coming out of anywhere but alumni and tuition...making college further unattainable for more people. YAY!!! dfegad
Old 24th April 2007
  #193
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the money is always there, it´s a question of the right allocation. don´t tell me your government has to fights against poverty.

i mean. it´s all very speculative, and it´s obvious we have different visions in mind, when we talk about a campus where you can carry a weapon.

first of all, when i got this right, in some states you need this ccw to carry weapons. and if then only these trained, experienced students would be allowed to bring a gun.
how many will have this ccw, it´d be luck if one of these students would be near a possible incident, in a theoretical situation. so just imagine a 20yr old scared student, scared as hell, approaching a building where he heard gunfire, sneaking through the chaotic building, people come running and screaming, his gun ready to fire. that´s war. there is a good chance, he could get the right guy, there is a good chance, he does a mistake.
and think of psychology. the memories about sth like that can probably ruin a young life.
do you really think the students should take care of this on their own? because you say, there is no money to protect a campus with securitys? money is probably better spent for a new highway, to pay some lobbyists, or whatever...

and let´s go to a state, where you get weapons without any kind of permission or something like a ccw. what about these colleges? when anyone can wear a gun, i´m sure that exactly the things will happen, matti talked about.

but it´s not the right way to have a guard with an AR in every room or in every hallway, too.
there must be more sophisticated ways to protect a campus.
again, it´s all about finances, the politicians make us to "citizens out of glass", they know everything about us, what we buy, where we spend our time. but it´s too hard for the police to catch this cho, although it was such a biiiiig timespan in between the 2 shootings. but protecting and controlling a campus costs too much money and brings too little...
a campus should be a sacred place of knowledge and tolerance.

would you consider arming a church?

the world is sick. and we are the sickness
Old 24th April 2007
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
the money is always there, it´s a question of the right allocation. don´t tell me your government has to fights against poverty.


our government should be fighting against poverty, but they don't really.

I'd much rather our government fight against poverty instead of paying armed security guards for colleges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
first of all, when i got this right, in some states you need this ccw to carry weapons. and if then only these trained, experienced students would be allowed to bring a gun.
how many will have this ccw, it´d be luck if one of these students would be near a possible incident, in a theoretical situation. so just imagine a 20yr old scared student, scared as hell, approaching a building where he heard gunfire, sneaking through the chaotic building, people come running and screaming, his gun ready to fire. that´s war. there is a good chance, he could get the right guy, there is a good chance, he does a mistake.
and think of psychology. the memories about sth like that can probably ruin a young life.


first of all, let me correct you. if you are a private citizen, you are not allowed to carry your weapon on you in ANY state, without a concealed weapons permit. MAYBE in the car, MAYBE...but locked up and encased.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
do you really think the students should take care of this on their own? because you say, there is no money to protect a campus with securitys? money is probably better spent for a new highway, to pay some lobbyists, or whatever...

i think they should be ALLOWED to take care of it on their own, if they so choose. Most will not, some will and choose to go get their CCW permits. Some already have them, but are simply not allowed to carry on campus.

sure, there is money there that COULD be spent on security, but in the real world its just not going to happen. they already have campus police forces, equipped and trained just like normal police. VT had a campus police force...they were too busy hiding behind trees to actually go stop the shooter.




Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
and let´s go to a state, where you get weapons without any kind of permission or something like a ccw. what about these colleges? when anyone can wear a gun, i´m sure that exactly the things will happen, matti talked about.


see, this is the problem...people outside the U.S. think that anyone here can get a gun as easily as a pack of cigarettes, and that we can jsut carry our guns around waving them in the air.

this isn't true.

there are NO states where you can buy a weapon without some sort of background check and waiting period. there are NO states where "anyone can wear a gun". in EVERY state in this nation, you need a concealed weapons permit to carry your gun with you...and it has to be CONCEALED.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
would you consider arming a church?

Concealed carry is not against the law in churches or houses of worship, so its not an issue.

Noone is saying that we should "arm colleges", where every student has a gun. Thats ridiculous, and more grandstanding by the gun grabber crowd. All anyone is saying here is to simply allow CCW on campus, to allow the students that CHOOSE to go and get their permits to allow them to carry on campus.
Old 24th April 2007
  #195
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I'd rather have a gun and never need it than never have a gun and need it!!
Old 25th April 2007
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC. Turner View Post
Well the real truth, which everybody here knows accept for you is, you don't have the balls to talk like this to a guy like me face to face. I've run into allot of people and I'm always the same. You think you're the only one who is like you. Nope. But you're all alike.

tough guy behind your keyboard.

But if it's any consolation. I didn't fight for guys like you. You can become extinct without me caring.

But, you don't really mean what you said. you're just embarrassed.

"Freedoms isn't even a word. It's always singular" LOL

On top of all that.

I hold the hadji sand n%$#ers I killed while I was in Iraq in higher regard then you.
Think about that. Fool.

Really think about that. I'll paypal you a hundred bucks if you can guess what I just said to you.
Turner-
+1
If there's to be a party, count me in...

charles maynes
Old 8th July 2007
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I have judiciously refrained from replying thus far. :-)
But seeing as I started the thread...

I am pretty anti-gun, except if you are a farmer, and anti-violence full stop.
I won't judge anyone- who am I to judge anyway- but I have just moved to the US and it looks like we will stay.
In Switzerland, UK and Aus I never needed a gun and would never have thought of having one.
Here... probably the same.

People tend not to steal from big blokes covered in tattoo's anyway- and I live in the countryside. :-)

Jim
i cant think of the reasons why anyone would move to NJ!
'


...just kidding around - its not too bad heh
Old 8th July 2007
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirocco View Post
i cant think of the reasons why anyone would move to NJ!
'
...just kidding around - its not too bad heh
My wife was transferred by her company to a role that required her to work in Nutley.

Made sense to live in NJ rather than live in a shoebox on manhattan and have her spend 2 hours a day travelling for the privilege.

That said, NJ gets a bad rap.
It is gorgeous one you get away from the swampland next to NYC.
I live in Green Village, right on the edge of rural horse farming communities.
I'm an hour to NYC, 2 hours to Philly and live on a half acre for less than a 1 bedroom apartment on manhattan.

I love it here- now if NJ musicians could be less derivative, more reliable and able to use words of more than two syllables I would be content.

:-)
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