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Who owns a gun?
Old 14th February 2007
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
well, chances are if you shoot someone who is simply breaking into your unoccupied car in your driveway, YOU will be the one who will be going to jail. At least in FL, you have to be in reasonable fear for your life or someone else's. Unless your in your home, then all bets are off and you can shoot. And Florida's laws are a lot looser than most states.

I wouldn't shoot someone for breaking into a car. But I certainly would be out there with my gun in hand, at my side so they could not see it. If they made a move for a weapon or towards me, I'd draw down on them. This would probably scare them away, but if not i already have the drop on them. I don't draw or shoot until i feel in danger.
NOt in New Orleans. There was a guy who got off for it. But what if you go with your heat out and the guy sees you coming and shoots you? Or what if you scare him away but he feels violated so he returns to shoot YOU?

He knows where you live, you know nothing about him.
Old 14th February 2007
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
NOt in New Orleans. There was a guy who got off for it.
I'd like to see some specifics of the case, because that is not normal. He got a really good lawyer, or got lucky with a sympathetic jury. Either way, there's a whole lot more to that story that we don't know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
But what if you go with your heat out and the guy sees you coming and shoots you?
Like i said, i'd have it at my side, behind me a bit so he wouldn't see it, safety off. As soon as he makes an offensive move towards me, be it charging me or going for a weapon, my gun is in his face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
Or what if you scare him away but he feels violated so he returns to shoot YOU?

He knows where you live, you know nothing about him.

Well, my gun is on my hip from the moment i get dressed in the morning until the moment i take off my clothes to go to bed. So I'm prepared for it. There are a million what-ifs to every situation, you just have to prepare for as many of them as possible. I would most certainly be on a higher state of awareness after an incident like this, so hopefully i'd see/hear him coming. Another thing is that bad guys are notoriously bad shots with zero aim, so lets say he gets off a shot before or right as i see him. If its revenge, he'll want me to see him. Chances are he'll probably miss. But maybe he does hit me with the first one, chances are he's not going to hit me with the follow up shots because of adrenaline, moving target, etc. So by that time I'll be on the move, drawing my weapon, and taking cover at the same time, where i can return fire more safely.

Its just a scenario, but like i said there are so many what ifs that its impossible to predict.
Old 14th February 2007
  #63
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Do a search for Sean Minor, New Orleans if you need more info. Here's what I found. (I remember when this was on the news. He didn't do time behind it.


Car Owner Fatally Shoots Teen During Alleged Robbery Attempt (New Orleans)
WWL-TV ^ | August 27, 2002



New Orleans Police arrested and charged a man for the shooting death of a teenager who was allegedly trying to steal his car.

Sean Minor, 29, was charged with manslaughter in the shooting, because officers say he wasn’t in danger at the time of the incident.

Police say that Minor shot the alleged burglar from his balcony while observing the victim and another man trying to break in to his car.

In the New Orleans East neighborhood where the incident occurred, some residents say what Minor did was justified.

"I feel he was justified,” said one unidentified resident. “Because that was someone else’s property and he was only protecting what was his.”

Meanwhile, at the coroner’s office, the victim’s family said they were pleased that Minor had been arrested.

“He didn't have no right to kill him,” said Wanda Munoz, the victim’s mother. “If he was doing what they said he was doing, he should have just called the police and reported it. Why kill him."

But local defense attorneys said that even if Minor were taken to trial in the shooting, it would be hard to get a jury to convict.

“The problem comes in cause many citizens will tell you that you have a right to protect your property and if they get to a jury they'll say they would do the same thing," said Robert Jenkins, a local defense attorney.

The NOPD will continue to gather evidence in the case and turn over the findings to the Orleans Parish District Attorney’s Office. That office will make the ultimate determination on whether Minor is brought to trial.



THat was before. This was after:


Man Gets Suspended Sentence In Fatal N.O. East Shooting


POSTED: 11:47 a.m. CDT April 29, 2004
UPDATED: 11:47 a.m. CDT April 29, 2004


Story by The New Orleans Channel

NEW ORLEANS -- A man who shot an alleged car burglar in New Orleans East was given a 5-year suspended sentence Thursday.

Sean Minor, 30, pleaded guilty to negligent homicide. Minor was originally charged with manslaughter after a grand jury failed to indict him for second-degree murder.

On Aug. 27, 2002, the victim, Abelardo Munoz, allegedly was trying to break into cars in an apartment complex parking lot. When Minor saw Munoz approach his car, Minor told his wife to call 911 and retrieved a gun.

When Munoz allegedly began trying to break into Minor's car, Minor fired three shots, two of which hit Munoz, killing him.

Minor told police that he saw Munoz holding a metal object that he believed to be a gun.



Copyright 2004 by TheNewOrleansChannel.com. All rights reserved. This material may



http://www.officer.com/news/IBS/wdsu/news-2184073.html
Old 14th February 2007
  #64
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In a situation like that, wouldn't a "warning shot" have been effective and more appropriate?

In my opinion, people put too much value on property. They're things... they're replaceable. A human life isn't. I can't think of one personal property violation that would justify killing someone... but that's just me, the hippy.
Old 14th February 2007
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv View Post
In a situation like that, wouldn't a "warning shot" have been effective and more appropriate?

In my opinion, people put too much value on their property. It's things... they're replaceable. A human life isn't. I can't think of one personal property violation that would justify killing someone... but that's just me, the hippy.
I do kinda feel you on that.....I just get sick of these bitches that have the audacity to take from you. Do you understand the type of balls it takes for a muthaf*cka to steal your car while in the driveway? Unbelieveable. I can't imagine being that kind of disregard for another persons belongings. I don't understand it one bit. Plus, it doesn't help when you've been the victim before in a theft.

Here in Michigan, I'm not real real sure on how the law works here in Michigan...but the last time I went to CCW class, it was illegal to shoot someone outside your home for stealing your property unless they presented a direct threat to your life. I think the laws might have changed a little though since the last time I went. I know before you could only have a 10 shot mag in your firearm, now there's no limit. heh
Old 14th February 2007
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Yeah, aint it funny how big peoples' balls get over the net.

Probably some redneck racist bitch that need some pussy because his dad played with his peepee when he was a child....which is just over a week ago.
That's pretty funny coming from a bloke who constantly talks about how big a man he is. Over compensating perhaps?

Racist? I wouldn't have a clue what race you are.
I think you're a ****ing idiot but the difference between the colour of our skin and what country we come from make no difference to me.

fuuck
Old 15th February 2007
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave View Post
That's pretty funny coming from a bloke who constantly talks about how big a man he is. Over compensating perhaps?

Racist? I wouldn't have a clue what race you are.
I think you're a ****ing idiot but the difference between the colour of our skin and what country we come from make no difference to me.

fuuck
First of all, you're a faggot. Who the hell uses BLOKE? Get the f*ck outta here.

Secondly, the thread is about firearms, as a result (you f*cking pillow biter), we are discussing scenerios where using a firearm would be appropriate. If you have issues with that, that's your problem. I never claimed to be some big man. I like my guns and that's all there is to it....no more, no less.

Now go f*ck some kangaroo or something...butt dart champion.
Old 15th February 2007
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
First of all, you're a faggot. Who the hell uses BLOKE? Get the f*ck outta here.

Secondly, the thread is about firearms, as a result (you f*cking pillow biter), we are discussing scenerios where using a firearm would be appropriate. If you have issues with that, that's your problem. I never claimed to be some big man. I like my guns and that's all there is to it....no more, no less.

Now go f*ck some kangaroo or something...butt dart champion.
An Englishman or an Australian uses the word bloke, all the time actually.- I'm one of those- you ignorant fcuk.

Don't make me laugh- you are always shooting your mouth off, insulting people, playing the big bad man..... oooooooh scary.
As soon as someone stands up to you you totally lose it...

Bet you are 5ft 2 with a small dick.
Oh and yes I know what the thread is about- because I ****ing started it.

Back to you, dickwad...
Old 15th February 2007
  #69
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Not me. I don't believe in me owning guns. Someone might use it, or steal it and use it. It's OK. If someone pulls a gun on me I'll just crap my pants. They'll probably go away.
Old 15th February 2007
  #70
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OH oh. I didn't see where this thread as ending up. I'll quickly remove myself from the threading.
Old 15th February 2007
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv View Post
In my opinion, people put too much value on property. They're things... they're replaceable. A human life isn't. I can't think of one personal property violation that would justify killing someone... but that's just me, the hippy.

if someone wants to harm your loved ones, do whatever you want with him. you´re the one who has to live with it.

but killing a thief??
you don´t know the story behind those ppl, maybe they deserve your stuff more than you do....and need money more than you could EVER imagine....
and if you feel so much hate for thieves, go out and kill em all, your president, mine too, she´s a women, by the way , and all the big international financial leaders, won´t be easy... its a mission for someone like you
Old 15th February 2007
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post

if someone wants to harm your loved ones, do whatever you want with him. you´re the one who has to live with it.

but killing a thief??
you don´t know the story behind those ppl, maybe they deserve your stuff more than you do....and need money more than you could EVER imagine....
and if you feel so much hate for thieves, go out and kill em all, your president, mine too, she´s a women, by the way , and all the big international financial leaders, won´t be easy... its a mission for someone like you
I have to ask if you know what it feels like to come home and find out you've been wiped out.
Old 15th February 2007
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave View Post
An Englishman or an Australian uses the word bloke, all the time actually.- I'm one of those- you ignorant fcuk.

Don't make me laugh- you are always shooting your mouth off, insulting people, playing the big bad man..... oooooooh scary.
As soon as someone stands up to you you totally lose it...

Bet you are 5ft 2 with a small dick.
Oh and yes I know what the thread is about- because I ****ing started it.

Back to you, dickwad...
Well you are wrong, I'm 6ft with a small dick...you BLOKE. heh heh LMFBAOdfegad
Old 15th February 2007
  #74
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"back to you dickwad" is the best line from this thread..


hmm..
i've owned 2..
mossberg 12guage pump
and this thing...


guns can be good...and if i was still in the states i would seriously consider getting another..

**** i'm trying to figure out how i can get a hold of another shottie for bird hunting..
there's too many pigeons in barcelona


studio security is being handled by the german shephard..
Old 15th February 2007
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
I have to ask if you know what it feels like to come home and find out you've been wiped out.
no, my home wasn´t ever invaded... ppl broke into my parents house once (they have their store in it), they stole some cash and stuff. it´s about 10 years ago and i still lived there at that time. well nobody in the family except my grandmother really cared. you have to know that this house is family property for more than 100 years. nothing got changed (no new locks or doors as anything), insurance paid the stuff (wasn´t much), the kids got caught, no big deal for anyone, my father used to be really cool when sth like this happened or when i drove another scratch in the car in my first driving year...
it´s only stuff, as long as nobody got hurt...
ppl stole some stuff from me, too.
a handy once, money on the streets, little things. i always thought to myself: man, you are naive.. but i prefer being a pussy and naive, believing in the good side of the ppl. never wanna be sleeping with a gun under my pillow.

you know, ever heard the word karma... don´t wanna sound cheesy, but if noone would think that it´s appropriate carrying weapons, you wouldn´t be so afraid either.

and you people wouldn´t be so full of hate if our societys wouldn´t be so damn materialistic. imagine you´re crashing with your LOVED CAR (by the way all these loved gas guzzlers and their owners who are too lazy to walk are destroying our planet anyways...) and have to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair... then you know what money can buy: nothing really important.
but hey... this leads to nothing. i´m really happy i live in a country where you can´t get weapons legally and buy your ammo at wal mart...

and let me tell you this: i was in a sports shooting club when i was young, i enjoyed it and was pretty good. but it was a sport, a competition. i´d rather be dead than pointing a gun at a human being.
Old 15th February 2007
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
no, my home wasn´t ever invaded... ppl broke into my parents house once (they have their store in it), they stole some cash and stuff. it´s about 10 years ago and i still lived there at that time. well nobody in the family except my grandmother really cared. you have to know that this house is family property for more than 100 years. nothing got changed (no new locks or doors as anything), insurance paid the stuff (wasn´t much), the kids got caught, no big deal for anyone, my father used to be really cool when sth like this happened or when i drove another scratch in the car in my first driving year...
it´s only stuff, as long as nobody got hurt...
ppl stole some stuff from me, too.
a handy once, money on the streets, little things. i always thought to myself: man, you are naive.. but i prefer being a pussy and naive, believing in the good side of the ppl. never wanna be sleeping with a gun under my pillow.

you know, ever heard the word karma... don´t wanna sound cheesy, but if noone would think that it´s appropriate carrying weapons, you wouldn´t be so afraid either.

and you people wouldn´t be so full of hate if our societys wouldn´t be so damn materialistic. imagine you´re crashing with your LOVED CAR (by the way all these loved gas guzzlers and their owners who are too lazy to walk are destroying our planet anyways...) and have to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair... then you know what money can buy: nothing really important.
but hey... this leads to nothing. i´m really happy i live in a country where you can´t get weapons legally and buy your ammo at wal mart...

and let me tell you this: i was in a sports shooting club when i was young, i enjoyed it and was pretty good. but it was a sport, a competition. i´d rather be dead than pointing a gun at a human being.
I can appreciate what you say, but I have had my studio broken into before. I have had my home broken into before. And, I have been robbed before at gunpoint.

We are all products of our experiences. A scratch in the car is no big deal, and I'd overlook that one. But I have had an accident where a woman was in the wrong, we pulled over to look at both cars and hers was damaged, mine wasnt. I had an exam that day and I was headed to school early for some last minute cramming. We looked at both cars and observed that since she was wrong and her car was the only one damaged, it was pointless to call the police/insurance companies because it'd be cheaper for her to fix her car than to pay her deductible to the insurance company. I had several people who saw the accident and offered to be wittnesses when we call the police, but I was a good semaritan that day.

We thanked God nobody was hurt and agreed to let bygones be. About a week later, I got a letter from the "HIT AND RUN DEVISION" Saying I fled the scene of an accident. (She took down my information as I pulled off).
(Luckily I called her from the police station and recorded a convo of her saying she was wrong, but needed to pay for her car. My damn insurance Co still paid her claim and raised my rates in the end of it all though.)

Now I know this has nothing to do with guns and I have gone on a tangent to say that we are products of our experiences.

If you break into my studio, and I catch you going down the street with my MPC, I'm killing you. OF course, you could argue that my life is not in danger so I am wrong. You could discuss what kind of karma I'd be inviting.

But, I'd say if your karma brought you to getting caught coming out of my place with my stuff, then you must have done something pretty bad.

It must have been meant for you to die that day.

Besides, I couldnt be a black man without guns in America.
We all saw what happened the last time none of the blacks had guns. LOL
Old 15th February 2007
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
Besides, I couldnt be a black man without guns in America.
Seriously for a sec, why is this the case?
Is your life really that dangerous?

I've lived in Australia, UK, Brazil, New Tork, Swtzerland and now NJ and I've never needed a gun except when I lived in the bush and we had to cull rabbits and roos.

I've only been threatened once (in Brazil, I simply walked away) and in one fight in my life- and I'm not exactly a well behaved person.
Never been pulled over by the cops either.

Maybe I'm very lucky? I don't know.
Curious how much you think race makes a difference here.

I have a friend in NYC who is from Nigeria (but was educated in England) and we've talked about this before- he hasn't had any problems to my recollection.

Jim
Old 15th February 2007
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave View Post
Seriously for a sec, why is this the case?
Is your life really that dangerous?

I've lived in Australia, UK, Brazil, New Tork, Swtzerland and now NJ and I've never needed a gun except when I lived in the bush and we had to cull rabbits and roos.

I've only been threatened once (in Brazil, I simply walked away) and in one fight in my life- and I'm not exactly a well behaved person.
Never been pulled over by the cops either.

Maybe I'm very lucky? I don't know.
Curious how much you think race makes a difference here.

I have a friend in NYC who is from Nigeria (but was educated in England) and we've talked about this before- he hasn't had any problems to my recollection.

Jim
It was a JOKE. Slaves were rounded up because they didnt have guns.

I did say "We saw what happened the last time we didn't have guns. LOL" I can't say I've only been in one fight though.
Old 15th February 2007
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improv View Post
In a situation like that, wouldn't a "warning shot" have been effective and more appropriate?


absolutely not...you should never fire a warning shot for two reasons. One, you are responsible for where that bullet goes. If you fire a shot in the air, that bullet is going to come down sooner or later and him something, hopefully not a person. If you fire at the ground, you run the risk of ricochet. Second reason is, you should only fire your weapon to stop the threat. No warning, not shoot to kill, its shoot until the threat to you is stopped.
Old 15th February 2007
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
It was a JOKE. Slaves were rounded up because they didnt have guns.

I did say "We saw what happened the last time we didn't have guns. LOL" I can't say I've only been in one fight though.
I wasn't answering that part of your post- was genuinely curious is all...

Some of my posts are pretty tongue in cheek as well...
No offense to anyone- having just moved to the US I am curious as to how this country works...
Old 15th February 2007
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
and you people wouldn´t be so full of hate if our societys wouldn´t be so damn materialistic.
its not about hate and its not about materialistic goods, its about preserving the life and health of me and my family. Its got nothing to do with the money in your wallet when you get mugged, its got to do with the intentions of the mugger...maybe he's up for three strikes so he gets life if he gets caught, whether he kills you or not, might as well not leave any witnesses right?


[QUOTE=beranie;1132444]
but hey... this leads to nothing. i´m really happy i live in a country where you can´t get weapons legally and buy your ammo at wal mart...


Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
i´d rather be dead than pointing a gun at a human being.
LOL, right. Well sorry to say, but your a damn fool then. I think if actually faced with the choice, you'd choose pointing the gun.
Old 15th February 2007
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
absolutely not...you should never fire a warning shot for two reasons. One, you are responsible for where that bullet goes. If you fire a shot in the air, that bullet is going to come down sooner or later and him something, hopefully not a person. If you fire at the ground, you run the risk of ricochet. Second reason is, you should only fire your weapon to stop the threat. No warning, not shoot to kill, its shoot until the threat to you is stopped.
Damn...did we go to the same guy? Exact same thing he told me. As a matter of fact, he said the gun shouldn't ever be exposed unless you are using it for the purposes it was intended...to stop the threat.
Old 15th February 2007
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave View Post
I wasn't answering that part of your post- was genuinely curious is all...

Some of my posts are pretty tongue in cheek as well...
No offense to anyone- having just moved to the US I am curious as to how this country works...
I'm confused then, what part of my post were you answering? That's the only place I mentioned my race. Silly me. I thought because that's the part you addressed and that's the part that you QUOTED that that was what you were answering LOL.

It's cool, No offense taken. Where do you currently live? What type of neighborhood? I'm from an area where the best of the best neighborhoods are not really separated from the worst. There are million dollar houses and shacks less than a mile or two apart in some parts of New Orleans, so I think it might not be the norm. Plus it's an area with one of the highest murder rates. So, perhaps I value my safety and protection a bit higher because of that.
Old 15th February 2007
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
I'm confused then, what part of my post were you answering? That's the only place I mentioned my race. Silly me. I thought because that's the part you addressed and that's the part that you QUOTED that that was what you were answering LOL.

It's cool, No offense taken. Where do you currently live? What type of neighborhood? I'm from an area where the best of the best neighborhoods are not really separated from the worst. There are million dollar houses and shacks less than a mile or two apart in some parts of New Orleans, so I think it might not be the norm. Plus it's an area with one of the highest murder rates. So, perhaps I value my safety and protection a bit higher because of that.
You wrote "Besides, I couldnt be a black man without guns in America.
We all saw what happened the last time none of the blacks had guns. LOL"

I was answering the former sentence, the bit I quoted- I figured it was semi-serious with the last one being more of a joke, which I didn't quote.

Well right now I live in an area predominantly populated by wall street investor types who have left manhattan and want to live in semi-retirement.
It is a great place to live, but possibly 'too nice' if you know what I mean.

When I was in the UK I lived in Brixton, which is about as rough as you can get.
Never had any serious issues other than one neighbour who was growing weed and had a bunch of people knocking at all hours- they would get the wrong door from time to time...
Old 15th February 2007
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptheoctave View Post
You wrote "Besides, I couldnt be a black man without guns in America.
We all saw what happened the last time none of the blacks had guns. LOL"

I was answering the former sentence, the bit I quoted- I figured it was semi-serious with the last one being more of a joke, which I didn't quote.

Well right now I live in an area predominantly populated by wall street investor types who have left manhattan and want to live in semi-retirement.
It is a great place to live, but possibly 'too nice' if you know what I mean.

When I was in the UK I lived in Brixton, which is about as rough as you can get.
Never had any serious issues other than one neighbour who was growing weed and had a bunch of people knocking at all hours- they would get the wrong door from time to time...
I understand what you were doing but it was actually misquoting my intention. The 2 sentences formed the joke and I took extra care to separate it from the rest of my post so I t would not be taken as anything else.
Old 16th February 2007
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Damn...did we go to the same guy? Exact same thing he told me. As a matter of fact, he said the gun shouldn't ever be exposed unless you are using it for the purposes it was intended...to stop the threat.



just general common sense gun rules really.
Old 16th February 2007
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
just general common sense gun rules really.
True....true.
Old 16th February 2007
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305 View Post
LOL, right. Well sorry to say, but your a damn fool then. I think if actually faced with the choice, you'd choose pointing the gun.
yeah. no problem. i don´t care what you think i would do, but maybe i am a fool for believing that a situation where a gun is pointed at me will
1. end up with noone dead if i don´t pull a stupid gun, too.
2. there are alternative ways to handle a situation than killing someone, even if it´s a situation where someone wants to kill you.


i won´t check this ****ing thread again, because some standpoints frustrate me too much as a pacifist. if you have to play with your guns, carry on, but stay at the other side of the ocean and please do not fill the charts with more stupid gangster rap where stupid rappers talk about stupid drive-bys or whatever and some stupid kids think its cool. stupid flanders
Old 16th February 2007
  #89
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Boy...someone's in the 6th grade. Whew.
Old 16th February 2007
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
yeah. no problem. i don´t care what you think i would do,

its just natural animal instict to do what you can to avoid death...if actually faced with your death vs. pulling a gun on someone, i think we ALL know what we would choose, you included.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
but maybe i am a fool for believing that a situation where a gun is pointed at me will
1. end up with noone dead if i don´t pull a stupid gun, too.

i can show you MANY circumstances where people were robbed and then shot for no reason. Hell, there's videos on the internet of convenience store robberies where the money was given up with no problems, and the clerk got shot anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post

2. there are alternative ways to handle a situation than killing someone, even if it´s a situation where someone wants to kill you.

can you be any more vague? please explain this one...if someone is raping your wife/daughter at gunpoint, what alternative way of handling that situation would you propose? If its me in that situation, it wouldn't even get that far because i would have pulled my gun and stopped it before it even came to that. You, on the other hand, would be wimpering and crying in the corner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beranie View Post
i won´t check this ****ing thread again, because some standpoints frustrate me too much as a pacifist. if you have to play with your guns, carry on, but stay at the other side of the ocean and please do not fill the charts with more stupid gangster rap where stupid rappers talk about stupid drive-bys or whatever and some stupid kids think its cool. stupid flanders

stupid this, stupid that, i think its time for your to look in the mirror at your ignorance. Sure, in a perfect world there would be no killing or violence, but thats simply not the case. Funny thing about people like you is when the sh*t really hits the fan, your gonna be cowering behind all the people who had the foresight to arm themselves
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