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Old 18th March 2007
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Post what you want. The statement I made couldn't be more true. Black music and talents have been imitated and stolen more than any other form of music and talent....period. You are in serious denial if you think otherwise.

But if you feel you must hold on to your pride, then do so. Can't blame you. I wouldn't want to hear that **** either.
You need a serious lesson in music history. The roots of rock and roll, as well as blues and country, can be traced back to the Scotch-Irish immigration to America and the music they developed while here. The roots of ALL modern, Western music (west as in Euro-American-Latin) can be traced back to Bach. The only music that has all-American roots is jazz. Yes, the best jazz artists back in the day were black (Louie Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Count Basie, Duke Ellington were incredible). And no, hip-hop/rap did not start in America.

BTW, I understand the culture quite well. I live among the culture and teach it.
Old 18th March 2007
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
Well, I replied to the your first statement.

Make up your mind. Are blacks immensely tallented, or immensely victimized.

You've completely changed the subject. Did you really think it would go unnoticed?

By the way, you are wrong on both accounts, although you may have a case for STOLEN recorded music in the mid 20th century.

I'm going to end it here. Good night, 3rd.
To answer you question: BOTH. We are immensely talented and because of our history, we were immensely victimized. And actually, because of this victimization, you could question white American talent more than you could question historical black talent. Why? Because of the power and resources whites have had in this country, many of our most beloved artists, artists that were not so known NATIONALLY because of their lack of the same resources, many have been studied and imitated....only to have a white version go on a NATIONAL stage and be considered some great artist. And in many cases, the white version claimed the status of being the ORIGIN of these particular talents.

Need I say Elvis? And there are many more where that came from.

And that's just music. Let's not talk about inventions and academic accolades.
Old 18th March 2007
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
You need a serious lesson in music history. The roots of rock and roll, as well as blues and country, can be traced back to the Scotch-Irish immigration to America and the music they developed while here. The roots of ALL modern, Western music (west as in Euro-American-Latin) can be traced back to Bach. The only music that has all-American roots is jazz. Yes, the best jazz artists back in the day were black (Louie Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Count Basie, Duke Ellington were incredible). And no, hip-hop/rap did not start in America.

BTW, I understand the culture quite well. I live among the culture and teach it.
Bull****. Rock and roll was originated by names like Bo Diddley, Fats Domino, Little Richard, and Chuck Berry.

Maybe you need to know about the SELF-PROCLAIMED "Father of Rock and Roll," Alan Freed, a white dude.

"Alan Freed (December 15, 1922 - January 20, 1965) was an American disc-jockey (DJ), who became internationally known for promoting African-American Rhythm and Blues (R&B) music on the radio in the United States and Europe under the name of Rock and Roll. Many of the top African-American performers of the first generation of rock and roll (such as Little Richard and Chuck Berry), salute Alan Freed for his defacto pioneering attitude in breaking down racial barriers among the youth of 1950s America. Partly in response to his non-racist attitude, his career was destroyed by example during the payola scandal in which other djs such as Dick Clark managed to survive.

While Alan Freed called himself the "father of rock and roll", he was not the first to use the term nor the first to play it on the airwaves. He was a promoter and he was very successful at what he did, until his own personal failings became exploited by others. They built their own careers upon the legacy created by Freed, while Freed's personal career was obliterated.

Many of the top African-American performers of the 1950s have given public credit to Alan Freed for pioneering racial integration among the youth of America at a time when the adults were still promoting racial strife. Little Richard has appeared in several programs about that era, to give the credit to Alan Freed that others have denied him. An example of Freed's non-racist attitude is preserved in motion pictures in which he personally played a part as himself with many of the leading African-American acts of that day. His influence and the music that he promoted crossed artificial racial barriers that were in place during the 1950s.

While working as a disc jockey at a Cleveland, Ohio radio station, he organized the first rock and roll concert called "The Moondog Coronation Ball" on March 21, 1952. The event, attended mainly by African-Americans, proved a huge drawing card - the first event had to be ended early due to overcrowding.

Building upon his successful introduction in Europe by film, Alan Freed was then booked onto Radio Luxembourg where his prerecorded shows enhanced his reputation as the "father of rock and roll" music. Due to the tremendous power that the signal of Radio Luxembourg enjoyed throughout much of Western Europe, his choice of music encouraged imitation by many domestic groups. The record companies also bought time on Luxembourg to further promote the music of Little Richard, Chuck Berry and other African-American artists. These sounds were heard in places such as Liverpool, England where the individuals who later became famous as The Beatles were also listening and attempting to copy the music they heard.

One of the reasons why Alan Freed was targeted for attack and destruction was due to his early belief in defacto integration and harmony and unanimity among the races. The 1950s were the age of extreme bigotry and race hate in the United States where Alan Freed promoted a sound for the youth of white America that had its origins not in Europe, but in Africa. American teens loved it and racist religious and political leaders reacted with alarm. Freed became a threat to their own message and therefore Freed had to be destroyed like a devil. To his fans worldwide Alan Freed is still remembered and appreciated to this day as being the "father of rock and roll". In the end his message became the norm, while the message of hate is now under attack."

And rap not originating in America?

Dude, I don't know if you are even worth my time.
Old 18th March 2007
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
To answer you question: BOTH. We are immensely talented and because of our history, we were immensely victimized. And actually, because of this victimization, you could question white American talent more than you could question historical black talent. Why? Because of the power and resources whites have had in this country, many of our most beloved artists, artists that were not so known NATIONALLY because of their lack of the same resources, many have been studied and imitated....only to have a white version go on a NATIONAL stage and be considered some great artist. And in many cases, the white version claimed the status of being the ORIGIN of these particular talents.

Need I say Elvis? And there are many more where that came from.

And that's just music. Let's not talk about inventions and academic accolades.
The problem with your argument is that it is in this miopic world of pop music. You are also confusing "entertainers" with song writers and composers. American black music has historically been based on the same I, IV, V progression or a close varient. Also, most of the material performed was copy music, sometimes with altered lyrics, sometimes not. The I, IV, V progression can be traced back to the Celts more than a thousand years ago. Sure there was beebop, and such, which was "invented" by african americans, but that **** has yet to cross over into contemporary pop. And I listen to Pat Metheny, which to me is one of the greatest modern jazz guitarists on the planet, and I hear only his pure style.

To dismiss the amazing EUROPEAN (white) composers over the last 1500 years, or the miriad of country and bluegrass performers over the past 75 years as not having influenced rock music is just plain ignorant. You need to study up on European history...A lot of **** went down over there as far as music, art, academics, architecture, industry. Open your eyes. Prejudice is based on ignorance, and I'm sorry, but you are one IGNORANT dude when it comes to this ****.
Old 18th March 2007
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Bull****. Rock and roll was originated by names like Bo Diddley, Fats Domino, Little Richard, and Chuck Berry.
Yes, and they were influenced by those blues and R&B players on the chitlin circuit. And you think those blues players just came up with that **** out of mid air? Like they were forced to wear ear plugs when working in white homes in which a miriad of european influenced folk music was being played? And do you think those rock and rollers were forced to purchase "blacks only" radios? Listen to a lead by Chuck Berry...you don't hear the CELTIC pentonic scale that it is based on? You don't hear the country (hillbilly, as it was then called) influence in rock and roll? Sorry, but the mountain people of the eastern US couldn't afford food and clothing, let alone a slave.


Like I said, you started your argument trying to say that blacks had an ingrained musical talent that whites do not have, and realizing that you can't win that argument, you switched it to a whitey keeping the black man down thing.

pretty damn pathetic.
Old 18th March 2007
  #126
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Pericles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Bull****. Rock and roll was originated by names like Bo Diddley, Fats Domino, Little Richard, and Chuck Berry.

Maybe you need to know about the SELF-PROCLAIMED "Father of Rock and Roll," Alan Freed, a white dude.

"Alan Freed (December 15, 1922 - January 20, 1965) was an American disc-jockey (DJ), who became internationally known for promoting African-American Rhythm and Blues (R&B) music on the radio in the United States and Europe under the name of Rock and Roll. Many of the top African-American performers of the first generation of rock and roll (such as Little Richard and Chuck Berry), salute Alan Freed for his defacto pioneering attitude in breaking down racial barriers among the youth of 1950s America. Partly in response to his non-racist attitude, his career was destroyed by example during the payola scandal in which other djs such as Dick Clark managed to survive.

While Alan Freed called himself the "father of rock and roll", he was not the first to use the term nor the first to play it on the airwaves. He was a promoter and he was very successful at what he did, until his own personal failings became exploited by others. They built their own careers upon the legacy created by Freed, while Freed's personal career was obliterated.

Many of the top African-American performers of the 1950s have given public credit to Alan Freed for pioneering racial integration among the youth of America at a time when the adults were still promoting racial strife. Little Richard has appeared in several programs about that era, to give the credit to Alan Freed that others have denied him. An example of Freed's non-racist attitude is preserved in motion pictures in which he personally played a part as himself with many of the leading African-American acts of that day. His influence and the music that he promoted crossed artificial racial barriers that were in place during the 1950s.

While working as a disc jockey at a Cleveland, Ohio radio station, he organized the first rock and roll concert called "The Moondog Coronation Ball" on March 21, 1952. The event, attended mainly by African-Americans, proved a huge drawing card - the first event had to be ended early due to overcrowding.

Building upon his successful introduction in Europe by film, Alan Freed was then booked onto Radio Luxembourg where his prerecorded shows enhanced his reputation as the "father of rock and roll" music. Due to the tremendous power that the signal of Radio Luxembourg enjoyed throughout much of Western Europe, his choice of music encouraged imitation by many domestic groups. The record companies also bought time on Luxembourg to further promote the music of Little Richard, Chuck Berry and other African-American artists. These sounds were heard in places such as Liverpool, England where the individuals who later became famous as The Beatles were also listening and attempting to copy the music they heard.

One of the reasons why Alan Freed was targeted for attack and destruction was due to his early belief in defacto integration and harmony and unanimity among the races. The 1950s were the age of extreme bigotry and race hate in the United States where Alan Freed promoted a sound for the youth of white America that had its origins not in Europe, but in Africa. American teens loved it and racist religious and political leaders reacted with alarm. Freed became a threat to their own message and therefore Freed had to be destroyed like a devil. To his fans worldwide Alan Freed is still remembered and appreciated to this day as being the "father of rock and roll". In the end his message became the norm, while the message of hate is now under attack."

And rap not originating in America?

Dude, I don't know if you are even worth my time.
Alan Freed coined the term Rock and Roll. Do you really think that making up a term defines the origin of the music????? Wow.

Rap? I guess you don't know what was happening in the Caribbean back in the 60's--before they immigrated to New York. Please do your research!

I'm out of this thread.
Old 19th March 2007
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
Yes, and they were influenced by those blues and R&B players on the chitlin circuit. And you think those blues players just came up with that **** out of mid air? Like they were forced to wear ear plugs when working in white homes in which a miriad of european influenced folk music was being played? And do you think those rock and rollers were forced to purchase "blacks only" radios? Listen to a lead by Chuck Berry...you don't hear the CELTIC pentonic scale that it is based on? You don't hear the country (hillbilly, as it was then called) influence in rock and roll? Sorry, but the mountain people of the eastern US couldn't afford food and clothing, let alone a slave.


Like I said, you started your argument trying to say that blacks had an ingrained musical talent that whites do not have, and realizing that you can't win that argument, you switched it to a whitey keeping the black man down thing.

pretty damn pathetic.
Now back to you.

Read this.
And make sure you click on the links at the bottom too. Learn some history.

Dude... rap, rock, funk, jazz, gospel, blues, R&B, Soul....all originated from black folks. This is the meat and potatoes of today's music industry.

Quit your squirming and face facts.
Old 20th March 2007
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Now back to you.

Read this.
And make sure you click on the links at the bottom too. Learn some history.

Dude... rap, rock, funk, jazz, gospel, blues, R&B, Soul....all originated from black folks. This is the meat and potatoes of today's music industry.

Quit your squirming and face facts.
First off your source looks like a second graders website.
Second, a quick look at his bio reads.....
Quote:
I don't suppose you're really all that interested in this stuff, unless you're from the FBI, or one of the aforementioned Psycho's, or perhaps an old teacher of mine, wondering if her prodigies' lives have turned out any less pointless than her own. If you know me already, then you already know most of this. Besides, I've left out the actionable stuff, except where the Statute of Limitations has expired.
Wow...Im gonna get a history lesson from this guy!

Have you ever heard traditional african music? You know, the music your ancestors made before they had their asses kicked by some other tribe and were sold into slavery?

Blacks brought mostly rhythm, and an emphasis on the minor 5th and 3rd to the music that europeans developed. For this you can pat yourself on the back.
Regarding Rap. People had been speaking over music since the 50s with the beatnicks.
Hell, a short glance through sourthern folk music finds white hillbillys talking over music in the 50s.
You really buy into alot of myths there 3rd. From white suicide rates to the black "invention of rock n roll". Try improving your knowledge as an individual. It will go ALOT farther in making you not only feel better about yourself but you will also look better to others.
Old 20th March 2007
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearBit View Post
Blacks brought mostly rhythm, and an emphasis on the minor 5th and 3rd to the music that europeans developed. For this you can pat yourself on the back.
ok hold on a minute...

blacks brought mostly rhythm. that may be an accurate statement, but its kind of like saying of berkshire hathaway viz warren buffett, "buffett brought mostly investment knowledge."

the rhythmic advancements blacks brought to european music are nothing short of astounding. compare, for instance, a rag of joplin to the late sonatas of beethoven, or the works of brahms. and when you consider that was just the beginning of african-american rhythms in music, you start to gain appreciation at the entire scope of the contribution.

because of black americans, the rhythm of music changed forever.

when you hear thelonious monk, for instance, play the stride piano version of "lulu's back in town" you are listening to some other-worldly control of rhythm and tempo that was completely unique, yet in the great tradition of african-american rhythms.

second, the minor 3rd and the minor 5th... this is kind of the way classicists hear jazz, a diatonic major scale w. a flatted 3, 5. and 7.

but it is so much more than that... starting with blues, yes, but by the time of duke ellington, advancements in diatonic harmony were made that approached the rhythmic contributions.

my problem with black music is not its legacy, which is undeniable, wonderful, earth-changing, unique, fantastic, and in every way spectacular.

my problem with black music is where it IS, or where it has been for the last 25 or 30 years or so. as black society gets more disfunctional, so, naturally, does black music, to the point that when orin keepnews first heard wynton marsalis, he cried and said "i never thought i'd year a young black kid play like that again."

black musicians, by and large, have given up the pursuit for artistic excellence and are trying to make a quick buck. there are exceptions, of course, but simply compare the r&b charts of the early 70's with the r&b charts of today to see for yourself all is not well.

so, to gearbit i say, the black man in america has a musical legacy that is unequalled.

to big 3rd i quote the great philosopher janet jackson; "what have you done for me lately?"
Old 20th March 2007
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
ok hold on a minute...

blacks brought mostly rhythm. that may be an accurate statement, but its kind of like saying of berkshire hathaway viz warren buffett, "buffett brought mostly investment knowledge."

second, the minor 3rd and the minor 5th... this is kind of the way classicists hear jazz, a diatonic major scale w. a flatted 3, 5. and 7.
I knew when I posted that I was making an oversimplified observation to a possibly VERY complex explanation.
You kind of said it yourself "the way classicists hear jazz"
Baby steps trane......
I do appreciate your obvious deep love and knowledge for black music/musicians. Thanks for providing some details.
Getting back to the question at hand.
My main point is that todays music is an obvious merging of euro and african influence. All you have to do is look at the musical trails of both back to a few years before ground zero .
Old 20th March 2007
  #131
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Quote:
my problem with black music is where it IS, or where it has been for the last 25 or 30 years or so. as black society gets more disfunctional, so, naturally, does black music, to the point that when orin keepnews first heard wynton marsalis, he cried and said "i never thought i'd year a young black kid play like that again."
As for your accessment of rap I really don't see it as any different from all of popular culture. As a fan of rap in the early days I do think it was faced with a crossroads around 93 and chose the lowest common denominator. Why? For the same reasons that most starvin artists do.....money. Give the people what they want and what they want is violence. The Malcom X sample "no sellout" became as hollow and tired as peace love and understanding. Nine Inch Nails and Manson represented the white side of the decadance that was the 90s while Snoop and Dre represented the black decadence.
America and its enormous popular culture became the spoiled child that needed to fufill its thirst for blood. You know a country needs to have its ass kicked when it has more wealth than anyone on the planet yet invites fights purely for amusement.
All of this will change though if things really start to take a downturn and violence becomes very real.

So....here we are post 9/11. Nas claims "hip hop is dead". To paraphrase frank zappa. Hip Hop is not dead....it just smells funny.
Old 20th March 2007
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearBit View Post
Blacks brought mostly rhythm, and an emphasis on the minor 5th and 3rd to the music that europeans developed. For this you can pat yourself on the back.
...
I don't know much about the black/white thing... but I do know that rhythm has existed for thousands of years in every culture know to man, and cannot be attributed to any one ethnicity, it's a product of mankind.

When speaking of intervals there is no such thing as a minor 5th... just a diminished 5th.

As far as the minor 3rd there has been “emphasis” on this interval for thousands of years also in every culture know to man.

Music is part of being a human. The color of your skin has nothing to do with talent or creativity.
Old 20th March 2007
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanG View Post
I don't know much about the black/white thing... but I do know that rhythm has existed for thousands of years in every culture know to man, and cannot be attributed to any one ethnicity, it is a product of mankind.

When speaking of intervals there is no such thing as a minor 5th... just a diminished 5th.

As far as the minor 3rd there has been “emphasis” on this interval for thousands of years also in every culture know to man.

Music is part of being a human. The color of your skin has nothing to do with talent or creativity.
I agree that there has been talent displayed at all ends of the cultural rainbow...

but the contributions that blacks have made towards music as a whole have been the ability to supercede the technicalities of music...and introduce the human factor...the emotion. It's not about "1 and a 2 and a 3" or the ability to write an extremely complex 30 part symphony all the time. No doubt...there is a very pleasing aspect of this to our ears. I personally love classical music, especially live. It sends chills down my spine to hear such power and yet at times, such serene music...all in the same piece.

But it has always been in the blood of the black culture to step it up...make it new...make it better...and better doesn't always mean more complex. "Better", for the black culture, has always been associated with how much emotion was involved in the performance...whether it be through instrumentation or through vocal performance or even through dance. This is why so much of American music stems from the blues. Nothing says emotion like the blues. And it's all through the rhythm. Much of the European influence was based upon classical music, which is not a rhythm based music but more of a transition and dynamic based music. Complexity was the name of the game. It called, "how many parts can you get involved in one piece?" More parts was notoriously perceived as "better."

The African influence was based upon the rhythm of the drum. This probably have a lot to do with why blacks take to dancing so well also. Rhythm will always have more impact because so much of who we are, as human beings, is based upon a rhythm...whether it's walking or our hearts beating.

So I agree. It doesn't have to do with color of skin...but it does have to do with cultural history. And the history of black Americans was one of struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish...and from day 1 we dealt with it through the music created from just the beat of a drum. At those times, it was all about overcoming bad times and looking forward to a better situation...keeping your head up, keeping the faith. These were the themes of the music...nothing but emotional outcries in the form of song. And this is all at the very first stages of Africans being brought to this country. Remember, several thousand families were broken up during the slave trade and several million died on the trip here. So those times bred nothing but sorrow. The African drum...hence rhythm...slavery...hence emotion...emotion and rhythm...hence blues...hence the most popular forms of American music.

Of course both, africans and europeans influenced music today. But to say that the first black americans didn't have more influence on MOST of the music we listen to today...is just utterly false.
Old 21st March 2007
  #134
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You know, 3rd...except for the last line, that was a decent post.


From Slate.com:

Is classical music—a genre that has spent a seeming eternity on the commercial skids—staging a comeback? That's the buzz on Nielsen SoundScan's 2006 report card, which listed classical as the year's fastest-growing musical genre. In an otherwise dreary year, sales of classical albums—a figure that includes CDs, LPs, and downloaded albums—increased by 22.5 percent, or 3.57 million units. That put the genre way ahead of such laggards as jazz (down 8.3 percent), alternative (down 9.2 percent), and rap (down 20.7 percent).


I do agree that blacks have the most influence on the music that YOU listen to though.heh

You also have to understand something about the emotion of a classical performance. If it were non-existent, then we would not need symphonies, as everything could be played as a midi file by a computer.

Try comparing a piece played by Yo-Yo Ma to the same piece played via MIDI on a computer. Then we'll talk about emotion.

By the way, ease up on the squirming ****. You obviously think I have some kind of agenda to keep the black man down. You don't know me at all.
Old 21st March 2007
  #135
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I haven't read much of this. OK, hardly any. So sue me.

Black culture defines what is hip. The definition of the word hip is Black. The blues scale is losely based on an african scale that doesn't exist in the western 12 tone tempered scale. There's a note that's kind of between the minor third and the 3rd and another between the 4th and the 5th, but it is not exact. We have APPROXIMATED it in our western adaptations.

Black people did not invent emotion in music. But without the black influence in music, the music we listen to and love, for the most part, would be non-existent. There were beautiful Irish melodies and Stephen Foster songs, much of which was relatively devoid of a black influence. But syncopations and the emotional inflection -- not always of the blues perse, took hold in America and across the globe. This cannot be denied. Our whole musical culture has been based in no small part upon it. It's hard to imagine ANY 20th century music that escaped it's influence, so pervasive and powerful was it. Would anyone, especially anyone here who perhaps derives maybe a modicum of income from music, deny this?

Black people did not invent music. Harmony existed before. Melody existed. 4/4 rhythms existed. African rhythms, very commonly weren't quite 4/4. Their rhythms were circular, enfolding several time signatures on top of one another, and it's "time signature" really depended upon what part you were playing and the point of view you were looking at it from. Very complex.

In some ways I think a prime example of the african american influence was the force of time or rhythm as an EMOTIONAL dynamic. Rhythm, from the European viewpoint was pretty drab. Downbeats. The rhythms rarely compelled you into motion and certainly not motion that was emotional. This was perceived as SEXUAL. I've always maintained that black people felt the music in their solar plexis, in their hips and their groin. This is not where white people heard music. They heard music in their head and in their heart. This is all purely generalities, but I think it's generally true. That's what was so shocking about this "savage" music. This music made you feel things you weren't supposed to feel. And it wasn't like some crude sexual Irish song about some lass.

And it wasn't so much the simple I-IV-V chord progression. That was common to a lot of songs. But doing them as dominant chrds and applying notes of that different sounding scale. And singing so painfully.

What ocurred in those southern fields, in black churches and farm houses and shacks was unique to American and world culture. The more they tried to suppress it, and suppress they did!; the more necessary it became. This is the great art that came out of that vile suppression. The lynchings, the murder, the whippings, the Jim Crow, the taunting, the discrimination, segregation, degradation and the constant intention to brainwash an entire people into servitude and inferiority. The effects will take many, many more years to wash away. They are indelibly imprinted upon our souls. And we are not alone. The foul stench is also imprinted upon the white american souls.

But this music that grew out of this despair in not just black music. It is American music born in large part from the black soul. But anyone who hears it and can appreciate it and understand it can have it and call it their own. Hell, most of it was stolen like everything else anyway. But his music belongs to America. I just hope it's not forgotten where it came from and why.
Old 21st March 2007
  #136
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Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
You know, 3rd...except for the last line, that was a decent post.


From Slate.com:

Is classical music—a genre that has spent a seeming eternity on the commercial skids—staging a comeback? That's the buzz on Nielsen SoundScan's 2006 report card, which listed classical as the year's fastest-growing musical genre. In an otherwise dreary year, sales of classical albums—a figure that includes CDs, LPs, and downloaded albums—increased by 22.5 percent, or 3.57 million units. That put the genre way ahead of such laggards as jazz (down 8.3 percent), alternative (down 9.2 percent), and rap (down 20.7 percent).


I do agree that blacks have the most influence on the music that YOU listen to though.heh

You also have to understand something about the emotion of a classical performance. If it were non-existent, then we would not need symphonies, as everything could be played as a midi file by a computer.

Try comparing a piece played by Yo-Yo Ma to the same piece played via MIDI on a computer. Then we'll talk about emotion.

By the way, ease up on the squirming ****. You obviously think I have some kind of agenda to keep the black man down. You don't know me at all.
Ok...you say that blacks have the most influence on the music that I listen to.

Wouldn't you agree that rock and all it's variations, rap, and R&B are among the most popular music in this country and worldwide? Also, selling the most?

Ok...I'll answer it for you.....YES.

And when you look at this, no doubt it is easy to say that blacks have DEFINITELY contributed more to these genres than anyone. Let's not take into account that blacks only make up 12% of the entire American population. That makes it even worse.

The fact is that: Black music has ALWAYS crossed barriers. ALWAYS. And now more than ever. I don't see droves of black, hispanics, asians, and middle eastern folks going to listen to country or classical music. And these are really the two genres that blacks have had the least amount of influence upon. Dude, it's a fact. White kids make up more than 60%(maybe even as much as 75%) of all sales of rap music and the genre was created and is dominated by more than 90% black artists. The same with R&B. These two genres alone, TODAY, have grabbed a significant amount of the world by storm.

Now we are not really talking about material because the material these days have been horrible to say the least. We are talking about influence. And over the years, this has been the case.

And as far as the squirming **** goes. Hey man, I call it as I see it. When you try to ignore the EXTREMELY obvious....then IMO you are doing nothing but squirming in your seat, trying to find something that can downplay the success, the talent, the contributions, and at times, the dominance that blacks have cast upon the music industry. These are just pure facts. To sit and look for exceptions is just ******** and the biggest form of squirming to me. Of course, whites had influence upon music as a whole...anyone suggesting otherwise is a fool.
But if you wanna keep it real, if you wanna state what's in front of you and on your television everyday...then you will see that black folks and their impact on ENTERTAINMENT IN GENERAL has been nothing short of dominance. Understand...white folks run the show...we know this. But even within the bull**** of this aspect of the entertainment industry, these same white folks that run the show...aren't stupid by NO MEANS. They know where the talent has ALWAYS BEEN. Nascar and hockey?...watched by pretty much, nothing but white folks(minimal crossover potential). Football, baseball, and basketball at collegiate and professional levels?....I need not state the obvious. Where is all the money? Football, baseball, and basketball.
The same is pretty much with the music industry. Look where the major money is being invested...and ask yourself...why?

CROSSOVER.

There is a reason.

So....

Don't be a squirmer...keep it real. heh
Old 21st March 2007
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Hey Third, tonight's 60's rock and roll kind of blew your theory. Except for Melinda, the black girls really didn't work out too well. The white girls were much better!

And even some of the guys. The first Chris was damn good. Big hair Chris blew chunks though. He might be going bye bye. And 9 year old girls will just keep voting for Sanjaya.
WHAT!

Melinda and Lakisha were byfar the best IMO.

But if you really think about it. The music back then was very straight up and straight down....very minimal flavor and very minimal soul. So this type of singing would be very out of their comfort zone.

It's actually making them stoop down a couple of notches...to sing that sort of music.

This also explains why the others were able to flourish so much.(or not sound as bad)
But I knew this would happen, it always does.

If you could hold a note, your chances of singing a 50s song successfully is much greater than....say, singing a whitney song of the 90s. Much more flavor involved.

Perfect example. Which song would be easier for the weaker competition? The "I will always love you" by Whitney or by Dolly?

Pretty obvious.
Old 21st March 2007
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I haven't read much of this. OK, hardly any. So sue me.

Black culture defines what is hip. The definition of the word hip is Black. The blues scale is losely based on an african scale that doesn't exist in the western 12 tone tempered scale. There's a note that's kind of between the minor third and the 3rd and another between the 4th and the 5th, but it is not exact. We have APPROXIMATED it in our western adaptations.

Black people did not invent emotion in music. But without the black influence in music, the music we listen to and love, for the most part, would be non-existent. There were beautiful Irish melodies and Stephen Foster songs, much of which was relatively devoid of a black influence. But syncopations and the emotional inflection -- not always of the blues perse, took hold in America and across the globe. This cannot be denied. Our whole musical culture has been based in no small part upon it. It's hard to imagine ANY 20th century music that escaped it's influence, so pervasive and powerful was it. Would anyone, especially anyone here who perhaps derives maybe a modicum of income from music, deny this?

Black people did not invent music. Harmony existed before. Melody existed. 4/4 rhythms existed. African rhythms, very commonly weren't quite 4/4. Their rhythms were circular, enfolding several time signatures on top of one another, and it's "time signature" really depended upon what part you were playing and the point of view you were looking at it from. Very complex.

In some ways I think a prime example of the african american influence was the force of time or rhythm as an EMOTIONAL dynamic. Rhythm, from the European viewpoint was pretty drab. Downbeats. The rhythms rarely compelled you into motion and certainly not motion that was emotional. This was perceived as SEXUAL. I've always maintained that black people felt the music in their solar plexis, in their hips and their groin. This is not where white people heard music. They heard music in their head and in their heart. This is all purely generalities, but I think it's generally true. That's what was so shocking about this "savage" music. This music made you feel things you weren't supposed to feel. And it wasn't like some crude sexual Irish song about some lass.

And it wasn't so much the simple I-IV-V chord progression. That was common to a lot of songs. But doing them as dominant chrds and applying notes of that different sounding scale. And singing so painfully.

What ocurred in those southern fields, in black churches and farm houses and shacks was unique to American and world culture. The more they tried to suppress it, and suppress they did!; the more necessary it became. This is the great art that came out of that vile suppression. The lynchings, the murder, the whippings, the Jim Crow, the taunting, the discrimination, segregation, degradation and the constant intention to brainwash an entire people into servitude and inferiority. The effects will take many, many more years to wash away. They are indelibly imprinted upon our souls. And we are not alone. The foul stench is also imprinted upon the white american souls.

But this music that grew out of this despair in not just black music. It is American music born in large part from the black soul. But anyone who hears it and can appreciate it and understand it can have it and call it their own. Hell, most of it was stolen like everything else anyway. But his music belongs to America. I just hope it's not forgotten where it came from and why.
Very fair assessment.
Old 21st March 2007
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
I agree that there has been talent displayed at all ends of the cultural rainbow...
That is wisdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
but the contributions that blacks have made towards music as a whole have been the ability to supercede the technicalities of music...and introduce the human factor...the emotion.
Are you stating that only black people have introduced emotion into music? Music at its essence is emotional and has been evolving for over 4,000 years. It pre-dates writing. For you to state blacks introduce emotion into music is correct. It would be also correct if any other ethnicity stated it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
But it has always been in the blood of the black culture to step it up...make it new...make it better...and better doesn't always mean more complex. "Better", for the black culture, has always been associated with how much emotion was involved in the performance...whether it be through instrumentation or through vocal performance or even through dance. This is why so much of American music stems from the blues. Nothing says emotion like the blues. And it's all through the rhythm. Much of the European influence was based upon classical music, which is not a rhythm based music but more of a transition and dynamic based music. Complexity was the name of the game. It called, "how many parts can you get involved in one piece?" More parts was notoriously perceived as "better."
Again are you stating that only “the blood of the black culture” steps it up or makes it better. This is not an exclusive trait of black culture. It is at its core a racist statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
The African influence was based upon the rhythm of the drum. This probably have a lot to do with why blacks take to dancing so well also. Rhythm will always have more impact because so much of who we are, as human beings, is based upon a rhythm...whether it's walking or our hearts beating.
Again dancing is not exclusive to black culture, the first historical account of dancing pre-dates 3000 years before Christ in India. Rhythm is in everything and everyone, it is a part of who we all are, we all walk and have beating hearts. Just because you are black it doesn’t mean you dance well, this is a stereotype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

So I agree. It doesn't have to do with color of skin...but it does have to do with cultural history. And the history of black Americans was one of struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish...and from day 1 we dealt with it through the music created from just the beat of a drum. At those times, it was all about overcoming bad times and looking forward to a better situation...keeping your head up, keeping the faith. These were the themes of the music...nothing but emotional outcries in the form of song. And this is all at the very first stages of Africans being brought to this country. Remember, several thousand families were broken up during the slave trade and several million died on the trip here. So those times bred nothing but sorrow. The African drum...hence rhythm...slavery...hence emotion...emotion and rhythm...hence blues...hence the most popular forms of American music.
Slavery also pre-dates writing and can be traced back 12,000 years. It existed in many cultures including Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Persian, Chinese, Mayan, Aztec, Indian, Africa, and Europe. Hundreds of millions of people in history have gone through life as a slave, not just black people. Even if you are of white European descent many of your ancestors were slaves. So the struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish are not exclusive to the black culture, to even imply this is very much uninformed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Of course both, africans and europeans influenced music today. But to say that the first black americans didn't have more influence on MOST of the music we listen to today...is just utterly false.
What are you actually trying to say, that you are better or your ethnicity is better? For one ethnicity to proclaim their contributions to music or the world in general are better or more important is ignorant. Beliefs like that are at the core of racism.

We are all capable of doing good things and we are all capable of doing bad things, once again skin color has nothing to do with that.

Trying to measure the importance of ones contributions is an exercise in vanity. It will always be subjective and therefore can never be proclaimed as a fact.

Let everyone be judged by there own actions and not by a short sighted pseudo-historical stereotype.

Old 21st March 2007
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanG View Post
That is wisdom



Are you stating that only black people have introduced emotion into music? Music at its essence is emotional and has been evolving for over 4,000 years. It pre-dates writing. For you to state blacks introduce emotion into music is correct. It would be also correct if any other ethnicity stated it.



Again are you stating that only “the blood of the black culture” steps it up or makes it better. This is not an exclusive trait of black culture. It is at its core a racist statement.




Again dancing is not exclusive to black culture, the first historical account of dancing pre-dates 3000 years before Christ in India. Rhythm is in everything and everyone, it is a part of who we all are, we all walk and have beating hearts. Just because you are black it doesn’t mean you dance well, this is a stereotype.



Slavery also pre-dates writing by 10,000 years and existed in many cultures including Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Persian, Chinese, Mayan, Aztec, Indian, Africa, and Europe. Hundreds of millions of people in history have gone through life as a slave, not just black people. Even if you are of white European descent many of your ancestors were slaves. So the struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish are not exclusive to the black culture, to even imply this is very much uninformed.



What are you actually trying to say, that you are better or your ethnicity is better? For one ethnicity to proclaim there contributions to music or the world in general are better or more important is ignorant. Beliefs like that are at the core of racism and slavery.

We are all capable of doing good things and we are all capable of doing bad things, once again skin color has nothing to do with that.

Trying to measure the importance of ones contributions is an exercise in vanity. It will always be subjective and therefore can never be proclaimed as a fact.

Let everyone be judged by there own actions and not by a short sighted pseudo-historical stereotype.

I don't have time to sit and break down every sentence that you posted. But I will say this...

1. I never said that slavery was exclusive to blacks. Don't put words in my damn mouth. However, even though it isn't exclusive to blacks, does this make it any less traumatic. Again, another way of downplaying the impact. Furthermore, I only introduced slavery into the discussion because it explains where these influences came from...it reflects that period of time and the state of mind associated with it.
2. My posts have been geared towards the influences on American Music. If you know anything about the history of American music and the history of America and hell, if you have a set of eyes in your head and a brain in your skull...it SHOULD BE pretty apparent that for such a small percentage of the entire American population and an even smaller percentage of the muscle in this country, pound for pound, blacks HAVE in fact made the most impact on AMERICAN MUSIC. PERIOD.

Now maybe you personally have some inferiority complex but it is not my intention to say that blacks are better than whites...it is my intention though to state what is extremely obvious.

You can type 10 more pages of **** and it still won't change what you see when you watch MTV, VH1, what you hear when you turn on your radio, check your teenage kids ipod, what the numbers say on the charts. PERIOD.

So open your eyes and stop feeling so entitled to every damn thing.
It's alright white man...you're still the pick of the litter.

Damn.
Old 21st March 2007
  #141
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

You can type 10 more pages of **** and it still won't change what you see when you watch MTV, VH1, what you hear when you turn on your radio, check your teenage kids ipod, what the numbers say on the charts. PERIOD.
i.e, a ton of sophisticated machines used to churn out quite possibly the worst music mankind has ever created?
Old 21st March 2007
  #142
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soultrane's Avatar
now you see why the contest is more than a singing contest...

first, lakisha merely did a bad imitation of shirley bassey... no good, and she is limited...

second, the kid who did the beat boxing, i don't know his name, but you've got to admit he's got cajones because he tried it last week and got laughed at, and came right back and did it again.

melinda is very good, but her competition is the likes of oleta adams or barbara streisand. is she that good?

i like jordin... she is not the best singer, necessarily, but she has improved the most in the last weeks... they had a "go jordin" party in her hometown and some 10,000 people showed up! now that's buzz...

my top 3....

melinda / beatbox kid / jordin

my bottom 3...

bald phil, the rocker chick, the chubby guy...
Old 21st March 2007
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
I don't have time to sit and break down every sentence that you posted. But I will say this...

1. I never said that slavery was exclusive to blacks.
What are you even talking about? I never said that you said slavery was exclusive to blacks.

I said.

“Slavery also pre-dates writing and can be traced back 12,000 years. It existed in many cultures including Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Persian, Chinese, Mayan, Aztec, Indian, Africa, and Europe. Hundreds of millions of people in history have gone through life as a slave, not just black people. Even if you are of white European descent many of your ancestors were slaves. So the struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish are not exclusive to the black culture, to even imply this is very much uninformed.

Which you did imply when you said.

...but it does have to do with cultural history. And the history of black Americans was one of struggle, heartache, and emotional anguish...and from day 1 we dealt with it through the music created from just the beat of a drum. At those times, it was all about overcoming bad times and looking forward to a better situation...keeping your head up, keeping the faith. These were the themes of the music...nothing but emotional outcries in the form of song. And this is all at the very first stages of Africans being brought to this country. Remember, several thousand families were broken up during the slave trade and several million died on the trip here. So those times bred nothing but sorrow. The African drum...hence rhythm...slavery...hence emotion...emotion and rhythm...hence blues...hence the most popular forms of American music.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Don't put words in my damn mouth.
So I did not put any words into your mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
However, even though it isn't exclusive to blacks, does this make it any less traumatic.
Now who is putting words in someone’s mouth? I never said or implied anything about it being less traumatic. I just said that it is not exclusive to your culture which you implied it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

Again, another way of downplaying the impact.
On the contrary I was not downplaying the impact of slavery, again just stating that it is, was not, and never will be historically just be a “black” experience. There are still many slaves in the world today, right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
2. My posts have been geared towards the influences on American Music. If you know anything about the history of American music and the history of America and hell, if you have a set of eyes in your head and a brain in your skull...it SHOULD BE pretty apparent that for such a small percentage of the entire American population and an even smaller percentage of the muscle in this country, pound for pound, blacks HAVE in fact made the most impact on AMERICAN MUSIC. PERIOD.
That really depends on what kind of music you listen to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Now maybe you personally have some inferiority complex but it is not my intention to say that blacks are better than whites...it is my intention though to state what is extremely obvious.
What is it again that is extremely obvious?

If you read my post and you are drawing the conclusion of an inferiority complex, than you must be able to read yours and see your superiority complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
You can type 10 more pages of **** and it still won't change what you see when you watch MTV, VH1
I’ve only had 3 posts, if you read the entire thread I think you will see that perhaps you are the one typing 10 pages of ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
check your teenage kids ipod, what the numbers say on the charts. PERIOD.
I don’t have kids, and I don’t look at the charts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

So open your eyes and stop feeling so entitled to every damn thing.
It's alright white man...you're still the pick of the litter.

Damn.
What is it that I feel I’m entitled to?


Old 21st March 2007
  #144
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To get on subject, Melinda or Jordan are my picks to win it.thumbsup
Old 21st March 2007
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

And as far as the squirming **** goes. Hey man, I call it as I see it. When you try to ignore the EXTREMELY obvious....then IMO you are doing nothing but squirming in your seat, trying to find something that can downplay the success, the talent, the contributions, and at times, the dominance that blacks have cast upon the music industry. These are just pure facts. To sit and look for exceptions is just ******** and the biggest form of squirming to me. Of course, whites had influence upon music as a whole...anyone suggesting otherwise is a fool.
But if you wanna keep it real, if you wanna state what's in front of you and on your television everyday...then you will see that black folks and their impact on ENTERTAINMENT IN GENERAL has been nothing short of dominance. Understand...white folks run the show...we know this. But even within the bull**** of this aspect of the entertainment industry, these same white folks that run the show...aren't stupid by NO MEANS. They know where the talent has ALWAYS BEEN. Nascar and hockey?...watched by pretty much, nothing but white folks(minimal crossover potential). Football, baseball, and basketball at collegiate and professional levels?....I need not state the obvious. Where is all the money? Football, baseball, and basketball.
The same is pretty much with the music industry. Look where the major money is being invested...and ask yourself...why?

CROSSOVER.

There is a reason.

So....

Don't be a squirmer...keep it real. heh
See, the thing is that I'm a guitar player. Some of biggest influences are BB king, Buddy Guy, Albert King, and....Jimmi Hendrix.

I appreciate music for what it is...MUSIC. I don't concider it a competition. You seem to think it is. When you come out and say "the white man has stolen everything in popular music from the black community" I am not trying to rebut the fact that they were a huge influence. I am tryng to rebut the fact that you can STEAL influences. If that were the case, then Jimmi Hendrix was the biggest thief of them all.

Get it?
Old 21st March 2007
  #146
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Wow. Of course you steal influences. That's how everyone learns to play. It's part of the process of growing as a musician. That's what an influence IS. It's kind of indentity theft. But it's a learning thing as well. No crime. But to not acknowledge the source, well that IS a kind of true theft.
Old 21st March 2007
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
See, the thing is that I'm a guitar player. Some of biggest influences are BB king, Buddy Guy, Albert King, and....Jimmi Hendrix.

I appreciate music for what it is...MUSIC. I don't concider it a competition. You seem to think it is. When you come out and say "the white man has stolen everything in popular music from the black community" I am not trying to rebut the fact that they were a huge influence. I am tryng to rebut the fact that you can STEAL influences. If that were the case, then Jimmi Hendrix was the biggest thief of them all.

Get it?
Look man, it's not about a competition at all. It's about keeping things into perspective and asking why things are the way they are. Race was introduced into this discussion because we were analyzing the makeup of the people that were making it through on American Idol. And just as there is a universal way that blacks talk and that whites talk, there is also a universal distinction between the typical sound of a black singer vs. a white singer or pretty much everybody. And it funny how you will more than likely hear a white singer that sings "black-like" than the other way around. This is usually because white america has ALWAYS loved the "black sound" but would rather see it from the white face.

This is the thievery that I'm talking about. This has me coming to the conclusion that I come to...about blacks and their overwhelming impact on American music.
Because throughout American history, whites have always looked over their shoulder to see what new **** blacks were doing musically. And once they found it and figured it out, it was commonplace to make the white version of it on the bigger stage. But it never was the other way around. Blacks were never notorious for checking out the new **** the white talent has been up to...because we were too busy doing our own thing.
But the funny thing about it is, when the white version comes out, there is usually some uproar and some frenzy by white america...as if they haven't heard the sound before...(I.E. Eminem/Elvis/Backstreet Boys/Christina Aguilera) The only difference was...they heard it from a white face. Then all of a sudden all kinds of lines are crossed. I remember when Em was really really peaking...I would hear his songs on rock, alternative, white talk radio stations, all kinds of **** that normally wouldn't have nothing to do with rap. I've never heard Hooty and the Blowfish or Lenny Kravitz on a hiphop/R&B radio station before. So the question is: Was Em that much more better than the hundreds of black rappers before him...that he crossed over that hard? OR was white america embracing him only because he was a great white artist that had the black sound? Isn't it safe to say that the color of his skin became more important than anything?

So now this goes back to my initial claim in, there probably should be more black contestants that made it through and that actually won American Idol....BECAUSE the "black sound or influence" has always been the sound of choice because it crosses over racial and cultural bounds more than any other sound or influence. PERIOD.
Old 21st March 2007
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Don't forget Sanjaya. WOW is he bad. BAD!!!!!!!

I kind of like Gina (the rocker chick) but she wasn't so good last night.
hahah BUT... no one works the phone like a teenage girl and they love that guy...

he has a little niche...

my favorite part of the show is simon....
Old 21st March 2007
  #149
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Big 3rd's Avatar
 

As far as American Idol...

if Melinda doesn't win....

more than anthing, my points stand EXTREMELY correct.

And if she does, which she should, it would just prove that there wasn't anyone white that was worthy enough for white america to embrace.
Old 21st March 2007
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
it would just prove that there wasn't anyone white that was worthy enough for white america to embrace.
pretty hard for snakes to embrace.... without arms, etc....

"all white people are snakes"
- big 3rd
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