The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
American Idol, anyone?
Old 14th March 2007
  #91
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
just watched this show last nite for a first chance to see all the contestants (except jordin...)

is there any one you'd actually plunk down a ticket to go see?

melinda is solid, but does she look like a rock star a vocal coach?

and i hate that look she gives when the judges are complimenting her, as in "you're complimenting my singing? no one has ever done that for me before."

as for the guys, wow, what can i say...

its amazing that with the 100k or more people who audition for the show, this is the best they could come up with...
Old 14th March 2007
  #92
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
just watched this show last nite for a first chance to see all the contestants (except jordin...)

is there any one you'd actually plunk down a ticket to go see?

melinda is solid, but does she look like a rock star a vocal coach?

and i hate that look she gives when the judges are complimenting her, as in "you're complimenting my singing? no one has ever done that for me before."

as for the guys, wow, what can i say...

its amazing that with the 100k or more people who audition for the show, this is the best they could come up with...
I refuse to believe that. It's probably all politics. Got to be. I know good and well they seen better contestants than what they have now. I know they let go of some folks that shouldn't have been, during auditions...so it doesn't surprise me.

As far as Melinda, 1. she doesn't look or sound like a Rock anything....and 2. this is a singing competition, not a fashion show...and 3. how do you question the talent that they have claimed to have mustered, when in the same post, you appear to be more concerned with how someone looks than how they sound? Appears to me that that type of thinking could be the reason why they have so many weak contestants.
She's done background for so long that she probably have never received props like that on that level from so many people. So I can believe her reaction. Besides, maybe people were busy telling her how much she looked like a vocal coach and not how good she sounded.
Old 14th March 2007
  #93
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

As far as Melinda, 1. she doesn't look or sound like a Rock anything....and 2. this is a singing competition, not a fashion show...and 3. how do you question the talent that they have claimed to have mustered, when in the same post, you appear to be more concerned with how someone looks than how they sound? Appears to me that that type of thinking could be the reason why they have so many weak contestants.

its a singing competition?

then how come they only have one or two people who can actually sing?

the show is called "american idol." in other words, they're looking for the complete package that teenagers can idolize.

it just goes to show how rare a beyonce, a mariah, a whitney, an alicia keys, etc. truly must be.
Old 15th March 2007
  #94
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
its a singing competition?

then how come they only have one or two people who can actually sing?

.
I agree. Of course we know it's singing along with other bull****. But in the end, singing should overule all other vices and virtues. Unfortunately, many other factors determine who even goes to hollywood or not. Can't have too many powerful soulful black singers...it wouldn't be a competition and white people would scream reverse racism, can't have too many ugly singers because people are shallow and love to not deal with just substance, can't have too little white singers when the majority of the American population is white, can't have all white singers...it might "look like we're racist," got to have the token fat people to, again, make it look like a diverse show. With all these stipulations and guidelines that have nothing to do with substance, the end result will always be crap. So bull****, bull****, bull****...it rules the world we live in.
Old 15th March 2007
  #95
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
I agree. Of course we know it's singing along with other bull****. But in the end, singing should overule all other vices and virtues. Unfortunately, many other factors determine who even goes to hollywood or not. Can't have too many powerful soulful black singers...it wouldn't be a competition and white people would scream reverse racism, can't have too many ugly singers because people are shallow and love to not deal with just substance, can't have too little white singers when the majority of the American population is white, can't have all white singers...it might "look like we're racist," got to have the token fat people to, again, make it look like a diverse show. With all these stipulations and guidelines that have nothing to do with substance, the end result will always be crap. So bull****, bull****, bull****...it rules the world we live in.
well, i guess they know what they're doing because the only show with higher ratings is the super bowl.

btw, 40% of all american idol winners are black... (btw, the md is black, most of the band is black...)

so, what do u think; it should be 100 percent black? are there no white people who can win a singing competition?
Old 15th March 2007
  #96
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
btw, 40% of all american idol winners are black... (btw, the md is black, most of the band is black...)

so, what do u think; it should be 100 percent black? are there no white people who can win a singing competition?
I'm not saying it should be 100% black. But if we REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it real, most of THEE BEST singers are black singers because of the soul put into the craft. This is synonymous with black singers. Sorry, it's just the truth.

So honestly, if they were really looking for just SUBSTANCE and GREAT SINGING...and not trying to "please" the American population with these stipulations that I talked about, then yes, a majority of those picked to go to Hollywood, a majority of the top 12 and a majority of the actual winners should probably be black. So 40%, is really bull****.

They only came here, to Detroit, once...because I heard that the terrible to great ratio was not big enough. Basically, it was too many very good singers, some great, but not enough terrible singers. This tells you that when they start out, they're not really looking to have all very good to great singers. They are trying to get the best diverse group as possible, which doesn't always include the best of the best, through and through.

I've seen them, at the audition level, pass up a clearly good singer that looked alright for someone whom they thought were "very attractive" FIRST...and "oh yeah, you can sing too." This usually was someone white. They figure if they can dictate the final 24, then there is a bigger possibility and chance for the winner to not be black, especially when America votes more for looks, personality, and of course, who looks more like THEM.

It's the truth man.
Old 15th March 2007
  #97
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
I'm not saying it should be 100% black. But if we REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it real, most of THEE BEST singers are black singers because of the soul put into the craft. This is synonymous with black singers. Sorry, it's just the truth.

So honestly, if they were really looking for just SUBSTANCE and GREAT SINGING...and not trying to "please" the American population with these stipulations that I talked about, then yes, a majority of those picked to go to Hollywood, a majority of the top 12 and a majority of the actual winners should probably be black. So 40%, is really bull****.

They only came here, to Detroit, once...because I heard that the terrible to great ratio was not big enough. Basically, it was too many very good singers, some great, but not enough terrible singers. This tells you that when they start out, they're not really looking to have all very good to great singers. They are trying to get the best diverse group as possible, which doesn't always include the best of the best, through and through.

I've seen them, at the audition level, pass up a clearly good singer that looked alright for someone whom they thought were "very attractive" FIRST...and "oh yeah, you can sing too." This usually was someone white. They figure if they can dictate the final 24, then there is a bigger possibility and chance for the winner to not be black, especially when America votes more for looks, personality, and of course, who looks more like THEM.

It's the truth man.
haha well, i haven't had a "white" singer on one of my productions since, oh, 1995so i can't really disagree...

but 40% is not b.s., its the fact... there have been 5 idols, 2 have been black... not only that, if one of the girls wins this year, it means 50% will be black.

but it also needs to be said that there are different types of singers, i.e., rock singers... a freddie mercury or a robert plant is every bit the artist any legendary soul or r&b singer ever was, and there are also country singers, which i'm not an expert on but evidently people really like...

but i think the real reason is if you really had 24 top notch singers up there, it would be impossible for america to pick the best because they would all sound good.

alot of it is human interest, like that kid kevin that was on from last year. that guy would probably not even win an average karaoke contest on any given day.

i know some really good, really good looking singers of all races get the gas after about 15 seconds of an audition...

the kids who are sitting there judging them are probably not the most competent...

so, even though it's a talent show, there is a lot of luck involved...

if america is as racist as you want it to be, there would have been no fantasia, no reuben, and certainly no doolittle.
Old 15th March 2007
  #98
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
haha well, i haven't had a "white" singer on one of my productions since, oh, 1995so i can't really disagree...

but 40% is not b.s., its the fact... there have been 5 idols, 2 have been black... not only that, if one of the girls wins this year, it means 50% will be black.

but it also needs to be said that there are different types of singers, i.e., rock singers... a freddie mercury or a robert plant is every bit the artist any legendary soul or r&b singer ever was, and there are also country singers, which i'm not an expert on but evidently people really like...

but i think the real reason is if you really had 24 top notch singers up there, it would be impossible for america to pick the best because they would all sound good.

alot of it is human interest, like that kid kevin that was on from last year. that guy would probably not even win an average karaoke contest on any given day.

i know some really good, really good looking singers of all races get the gas after about 15 seconds of an audition...

the kids who are sitting there judging them are probably not the most competent...

so, even though it's a talent show, there is a lot of luck involved...

if america is as racist as you want it to be, there would have been no fantasia, no reuben, and certainly no doolittle.
Whether we call this racism or not...that can definitely can be argued. But Eminem is the perfect example in this scenerio. There were millions of "overnight" hiphop fans that adopted Eminem...most of them were white. The same goes for Tiger Woods. Black people, overall, don't give two ****s about golf, but there definitely were more that did once Tiger became "the man." Now of course, a good amount of this was because there were NO black faces associated with good professional golfers, at all....mostly because of the exclusivity that golf embraces. But the other part was because people tend to embrace their own image FIRST, before any other.

But you mentioned if there were 24 top notch singers. If this were the case, it would make for a much better competition....definitely a lot more interesting. Since this isn't the case, a lot of the race thing factors in. The fact is: there are more whites than any other racial group in this country. So they really determine the outcome. When this is factored in, there is no other conclusion to come to...other than who they like personally, who looks more like them, and finally, who sings the best. And if they can vote for someone who sounds fairly good and look more like them or someone they can relate to....then "f*ck it."
Old 16th March 2007
  #99
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Whether we call this racism or not...that can definitely can be argued. But Eminem is the perfect example in this scenerio. There were millions of "overnight" hiphop fans that adopted Eminem...most of them were white. The same goes for Tiger Woods. Black people, overall, don't give two ****s about golf, but there definitely were more that did once Tiger became "the man." Now of course, a good amount of this was because there were NO black faces associated with good professional golfers, at all....mostly because of the exclusivity that golf embraces. But the other part was because people tend to embrace their own image FIRST, before any other.

But you mentioned if there were 24 top notch singers. If this were the case, it would make for a much better competition....definitely a lot more interesting. Since this isn't the case, a lot of the race thing factors in. The fact is: there are more whites than any other racial group in this country. So they really determine the outcome. When this is factored in, there is no other conclusion to come to...other than who they like personally, who looks more like them, and finally, who sings the best. And if they can vote for someone who sounds fairly good and look more like them or someone they can relate to....then "f*ck it."
are you saying that if they just went by talent alone it would be 100% black?

and if so, are you going to say that nash only won the nba mvp because he was white? (he might win it three in a row, btw)
Old 16th March 2007
  #100
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
are you saying that if they just went by talent alone it would be 100% black?

and if so, are you going to say that nash only won the nba mvp because he was white? (he might win it three in a row, btw)
First question: Definitely possible.

Second...Nash shouldn't have won it last year IMO but definitely deserve it this year.
And actually this has nothing to do with the topic. We are talking about singing...not basketball. And we are talking about individual merits that doesn't effect anyone else. MVP means....who means the most to their team...and Nash definitely is that.
Old 16th March 2007
  #101
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Found some **** that you should read. F*ck American Idol.
Old 16th March 2007
  #102
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Wow, you really think that?

tutt
Of course, not the entire show. But the winners could definitely end up all black IMO...if they were judging based on talent alone. But like I said, half of the people that are allowed to be included into the show, don't belong there. So that is where you eliminate most of the talent...at the audition level. This is where they pick and choose what they need for the show to be more than just a talented singing competition.
Old 16th March 2007
  #103
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
yeah well we already knew that... its a reality show, not a singing competition.

but ONE thing i will say, big 3rd... of the 13 singers i saw last week, by far the WORST was diana ross...

now, granted, she's old enough to be your grandma's big sister, but still... wow...

and really, how is american idol any different than any other aspect of the music biz?

take for instance ashanti.

take for instance cassie.

i mean, who made more from record sales last year, t pain or frank mccomb? yet frank could give rapa ternt sanga lessons for 3 years and even with autotune, he STILL wouldn't be good enough to carry frank's popper stopper.

the whole biz is wierd.
Old 17th March 2007
  #104
Registered User
 
Pericles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
I'm not saying it should be 100% black. But if we REALLY REALLY REALLY want to keep it real, most of THEE BEST singers are black singers because of the soul put into the craft. This is synonymous with black singers. Sorry, it's just the truth.

So honestly, if they were really looking for just SUBSTANCE and GREAT SINGING...and not trying to "please" the American population with these stipulations that I talked about, then yes, a majority of those picked to go to Hollywood, a majority of the top 12 and a majority of the actual winners should probably be black. So 40%, is really bull****.
You've got to be kidding. By this argument, I can make a case and say that Italian males are the best male singers. When it comes to substance, great singing, and pure musicianship, Italian operatic trained tenors beat them all. Enrico Caruso is considered by many serious critics to be the greatest male voice ever. No singer today could compete with Pavarotti in his prime (ok, maybe Domingo in his prime). Italian music programs crank out well-trained tenors every year that barely anyone will get to hear.

Of course, you may not agree. Yes, it's all subjective and based on what the people want out of a star. To say that the majority of winners should be black because of the soul they put into it is ridiculous. To say that they are the best is equally inane. It's too hard to quantify the best.
Old 17th March 2007
  #105
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
You've got to be kidding. By this argument, I can make a case and say that Italian males are the best male singers. When it comes to substance, great singing, and pure musicianship, Italian operatic trained tenors beat them all. Enrico Caruso is considered by many serious critics to be the greatest male voice ever. No singer today could compete with Pavarotti in his prime (ok, maybe Domingo in his prime). Italian music programs crank out well-trained tenors every year that barely anyone will get to hear.

Of course, you may not agree. Yes, it's all subjective and based on what the people want out of a star. To say that the majority of winners should be black because of the soul they put into it is ridiculous. To say that they are the best is equally inane. It's too hard to quantify the best.
When we look at the art of using ones voice as an instrument by itself...let's really take a look at AMERICA and it's history of great singers...since we are talking about AMERICAN IDOL.

Now since we are talking about race when talking about singers, let's look at some of the singers that America "considered" great or the greatest. (Excuse me if I don't know as many whites singers as black ones.)

Ok....

"Great" White singers
Tony Bennett
Elvis Presley
Barbara Streisand
Frank Sinatra
Celine Dion
Kenny Rogers
Garth Brooks
Shania Twain
Dolly Pardon
The Beatles
Kenny Loggins....for SG
I really can't think of anymore that America considers "great."

Now...

"Great" Black singers
Stevie Wonder
Marvin Gay
Luther Vandross
Whitney Houston
Gladys Knight
Aretha Franklin
The Temptations
Sam Cooke
Pattie Labelle
Minnie Riperton
Anita Baker

I'll stop there.

Now...

Take away the band, take away the music, give all these people a mic...and let them go for it.

Which team are you rolling with?

As far as Opera singing goes, it definitely is an extremely special talent....HOWEVER...

there is a very technical, very sterile thing that opera singing has that can not compare to a soulful masterpiece. Many like to equate being able to hold an extremely high note for an extended amount of time with expressing passion, pain, and soul within a singing performance. It's just not the case or the same. Many like to equate being able to belt out an extremely loud controlled note as a form of greatness. It is a FORM of greatness, but only, technically. Soul can not be trained, taught, or practice. Just like I could stick you in basketball court everyday for 3 years and you would more than likely become a very good shooter...maybe not as good as some but you'd definitely become better. Great soul singers are like that kid that walks on a basketball court a couple times and just masters the game in a very short amount of time...just because that have that "it" factor. It's not about training and practicing all the time.

Janice Joplin was not a great "sounding" singer...but she definitely expressed more soul and passion than most "great" white singers that I've ever heard. IMO Teena Marie was the greatest white female vocalist ever...because of this very thing. Not only does she "sound" amazing, but you can feel her pain, her love, her passion when she sings. It's not about just holding a note and being in control of that note...it's more about the passion involved. A lot of the "greatness" involved in great opera singing includes being able to hold these notes for an astronomical amount of time. Ok.....so what. Is that all you can do?

Another excellent example is Aretha Franklin. Now when you listen to her voice, she really doesn't have the sweetest "sounding" voice. But her voice mixed in with the passion and soul that's poured into her performances, it puts her in a very small class...a class that usually involves mostly singers of the Soul genre.
Old 17th March 2007
  #106
Lives for gear
 

1: American Idol is not a singing competition. It is a competition to see who has the best PACKAGE of singing, looks, and personality. There are very few people who have 100% of all three, but there are many "idols" who have alot of at least two of these.

2: I agree that looks have a huge part of being an idol. Elvis was not the greatest singer of his time, but he may have been the greatest white, handsome, R&B singer of his time.

3: I think the fact that black people are generally better R&B singers has more to do with the fact that they are exposed to and participate in gospel at church, usually at a young age. Most of the black singers 3rd mentioned started in gospel. I don't think black folk are genetically more inclined to have more "soul" as a race.
Old 17th March 2007
  #107
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
When we look at the art of using ones voice as an instrument by itself...let's really take a look at AMERICA and it's history of great singers...since we are talking about AMERICAN IDOL.

Now since we are talking about race when talking about singers, let's look at some of the singers that America "considered" great or the greatest. (Excuse me if I don't know as many whites singers as black ones.)

Ok....

"Great" White singers
Tony Bennett
Elvis Presley
Barbara Streisand
Frank Sinatra
Celine Dion
Kenny Rogers
Garth Brooks
Shania Twain
Dolly Pardon
The Beatles
Kenny Loggins....for SG
I really can't think of anymore that America considers "great."

Now...

"Great" Black singers
Stevie Wonder
Marvin Gay
Luther Vandross
Whitney Houston
Gladys Knight
Aretha Franklin
The Temptations
Sam Cooke
Pattie Labelle
Minnie Riperton
Anita Baker

I'll stop there.

Now...

Take away the band, take away the music, give all these people a mic...and let them go for it.

Which team are you rolling with?

As far as Opera singing goes, it definitely is an extremely special talent....HOWEVER...

there is a very technical, very sterile thing that opera singing has that can not compare to a soulful masterpiece. Many like to equate being able to hold an extremely high note for an extended amount of time with expressing passion, pain, and soul within a singing performance. It's just not the case or the same. Many like to equate being able to belt out an extremely loud controlled note as a form of greatness. It is a FORM of greatness, but only, technically. Soul can not be trained, taught, or practice. Just like I could stick you in basketball court everyday for 3 years and you would more than likely become a very good shooter...maybe not as good as some but you'd definitely become better. Great soul singers are like that kid that walks on a basketball court a couple times and just masters the game in a very short amount of time...just because that have that "it" factor. It's not about training and practicing all the time.

Janice Joplin was not a great "sounding" singer...but she definitely expressed more soul and passion than most "great" white singers that I've ever heard. IMO Teena Marie was the greatest white female vocalist ever...because of this very thing. Not only does she "sound" amazing, but you can feel her pain, her love, her passion when she sings. It's not about just holding a note and being in control of that note...it's more about the passion involved. A lot of the "greatness" involved in great opera singing includes being able to hold these notes for an astronomical amount of time. Ok.....so what. Is that all you can do?

Another excellent example is Aretha Franklin. Now when you listen to her voice, she really doesn't have the sweetest "sounding" voice. But her voice mixed in with the passion and soul that's poured into her performances, it puts her in a very small class...a class that usually involves mostly singers of the Soul genre.
what you are essentially saying is the music that moves YOU is great, and music that doesn't is soul-less and sterile.
Old 17th March 2007
  #108
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
1: American Idol is not a singing competition. It is a competition to see who has the best PACKAGE of singing, looks, and personality. There are very few people who have 100% of all three, but there are many "idols" who have alot of at least two of these.

2: I agree that looks have a huge part of being an idol. Elvis was not the greatest singer of his time, but he may have been the greatest white, handsome, R&B singer of his time.

3: I think the fact that black people are generally better R&B singers has more to do with the fact that they are exposed to and participate in gospel at church, usually at a young age. Most of the black singers 3rd mentioned started in gospel. I don't think black folk are genetically more inclined to have more "soul" as a race.
Ok...that doesn't make sense. You said most of the singers participated in gospel and I'm assuming you are proposing that this was the mode that helped form them to their greatness. Ok...who made the mode, this form of gospel? Where did it come from? Out of thin air? Secondly, we are not talking about genetics. Genetics include more things like grade of hair, eye color, and other physical attributes. Now if we are to say culturally? Yes, blacks have thee most "soul" of any other ethnic group. "Soul" means to be unconventional, it's improvisation, it's being unorthodox, it's creating something out of nothing, it's putting away the instructions and trying something new, it's adding more trimmings, it's adding more "flavor" to something that already does the basic job and making the added unnecessary "flavor" be just as important as the job itself.

I think we know who we are talking about here. Now whether you want to call it genetics or cultural...it really makes no difference.
Old 17th March 2007
  #109
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
what you are essentially saying is the music that moves YOU is great, and music that doesn't is soul-less and sterile.
No, I'm just telling you what is and what isn't soulful. The reason why Hendrix was argueably the greatest guitarist ever was because he did things that can't be written in a book in procedure form. This is soul...or at least what we as Americans have labeled and referred to as "soul." Unorthodox ****. Maybe they label the art of opera singing something else in Italy...but it definitely ain't soul.
Classic music is another very technical form of music that takes a tremendous amount of skill to compose and perform....but it is not soulful. But it is great music.
So don't get it twisted.

Of course we have to keep in mind what we are talking about here. American Idol and American music. And when talking about the art of JUST SINGING, there is no other genre more powerful or more skillful and takes more talent than true soul, gospel, and R&B. Period.
Old 17th March 2007
  #110
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
No, I'm just telling you what is and what isn't soulful. The reason why Hendrix was argueably the greatest guitarist ever was because he did things that can't be written in a book in procedure form. This is soul...or at least what we as Americans have labeled and referred to as "soul." Unorthodox ****. Maybe they label the art of opera singing something else in Italy...but it definitely ain't soul.
Classic music is another very technical form of music that takes a tremendous amount of skill to compose and perform....but it is not soulful. But it is great music.
So don't get it twisted.

Of course we have to keep in mind what we are talking about here. American Idol and American music. And when talking about the art of JUST SINGING, there is no other genre more powerful or more skillful and takes more talent than true soul, gospel, and R&B. Period.

q. how does big 3rd change a light bulb.

a. he grabs onto the bulb and lets the world revolve around him.


i mean, i've met aLOT of pro-black musicians in my day, some who are legendary, in fact... BUT

i've never met anyone who would say "classic music is not soulful."

until now.

dolly pardon indeed....
Old 17th March 2007
  #111
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

I think we know who we are talking about here. Now whether you want to call it genetics or cultural...it really makes no difference.
OMG...did you really say that?

Seriously, 3rd...PLEASE look both the word "genetics" and "culture" in the dictionary. There is DEFINITELY a difference.
Old 17th March 2007
  #112
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
q. how does big 3rd change a light bulb.

a. he grabs onto the bulb and lets the world revolve around him.


i mean, i've met aLOT of pro-black musicians in my day, some who are legendary, in fact... BUT

i've never met anyone who would say "classic music is not soulful."

until now.

dolly pardon indeed....
The term "soul" or "soulful" was never used as a way to describe a particular sound until African American forms of music was introduced.

Classic music can be dramatic and emotion driven but soulful is not one of them.

You're the one making it into some competition like discussion. I'm not saying anything revolves around me...I'm just stating the truth. As of now, I'm really talking more about American music and the many genres that involve singing because this is where the term "soul" was made appropriate. So again, when looking at American music that involves some form of singing...Rock, R&B, Soul, Gospel, Alternative, Country, Heavy Metal, Disco, Jazz, Blues, and Funk...it is clear that thee best singers come out of the Soul, R&B, and Gospel genres. And I'm talking about with NO MUSIC...just a mic.

Are you disagreeing with me?
Old 17th March 2007
  #113
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
OMG...did you really say that?

Seriously, 3rd...PLEASE look both the word "genetics" and "culture" in the dictionary. There is DEFINITELY a difference.
I said there was a difference. I'm just stating that whatever YOU want to call it makes no difference. I already said that genetics are not what we are discussing when talking about this topic.
Old 17th March 2007
  #114
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
made the mode, this form of gospel? Where did it come from? Out of thin air? Secondly, we are not talking about genetics. Now if we are to say culturally? Yes, blacks have thee most "soul" of any other ethnic group. "Soul" means to be unconventional, it's improvisation, it's being unorthodox, it's creating something out of nothing, it's putting away the instructions and trying something new, it's adding more trimmings, it's adding more "flavor" to something that already does the basic job and making the added unnecessary "flavor" be just as important as the job itself.
Everything you mentioned there is a result of the slavery and oppression of blacks by the white man.

It's not about putting away the instructions. It's about not being given the instructions in the first place. It's making due with the waste meats and greens. It's about having a guitar and not knowing the proper way to tune it traditionally.

I'm not saying that is a good thing, but it is the truth. Well, I think the impetus was a horible thing, but the end result is beautiful.
Old 17th March 2007
  #115
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
Rock, R&B, Soul, Gospel, Alternative, Country, Heavy Metal, Disco, Jazz, Blues, and Funk...it is clear that thee best singers come out of the Soul, R&B, and Gospel genres. And I'm talking about with NO MUSIC...just a mic.

Are you disagreeing with me?
kind of reminds me of those "superstar" competitions of days gone by, where they would pit the best athletes from all sports to see who the best all around athlete was.

i will agree that the best soul singers are soul singers.... er, yeah, i'm with you on that point.

but is a soul singer the best to sing a rock song? or, is a soul singer necessarily the ONLY kind of singer you want to listen to and say, wow, that's a great singer?

(btw... soccer players usually won the superstar competition...)
Old 17th March 2007
  #116
Registered User
 
Pericles's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
When we look at the art of using ones voice as an instrument by itself...let's really take a look at AMERICA and it's history of great singers...since we are talking about AMERICAN IDOL.

Now since we are talking about race when talking about singers, let's look at some of the singers that America "considered" great or the greatest. (Excuse me if I don't know as many whites singers as black ones.)

Ok....

"Great" White singers
Tony Bennett
Elvis Presley
Barbara Streisand
Frank Sinatra
Celine Dion
Kenny Rogers
Garth Brooks
Shania Twain
Dolly Pardon
The Beatles
Kenny Loggins....for SG
I really can't think of anymore that America considers "great."

Now...

"Great" Black singers
Stevie Wonder
Marvin Gay
Luther Vandross
Whitney Houston
Gladys Knight
Aretha Franklin
The Temptations
Sam Cooke
Pattie Labelle
Minnie Riperton
Anita Baker

I'll stop there.

Now...

Take away the band, take away the music, give all these people a mic...and let them go for it.

Which team are you rolling with?

As far as Opera singing goes, it definitely is an extremely special talent....HOWEVER...

there is a very technical, very sterile thing that opera singing has that can not compare to a soulful masterpiece. Many like to equate being able to hold an extremely high note for an extended amount of time with expressing passion, pain, and soul within a singing performance. It's just not the case or the same. Many like to equate being able to belt out an extremely loud controlled note as a form of greatness. It is a FORM of greatness, but only, technically. Soul can not be trained, taught, or practice. Just like I could stick you in basketball court everyday for 3 years and you would more than likely become a very good shooter...maybe not as good as some but you'd definitely become better. Great soul singers are like that kid that walks on a basketball court a couple times and just masters the game in a very short amount of time...just because that have that "it" factor. It's not about training and practicing all the time.

Janice Joplin was not a great "sounding" singer...but she definitely expressed more soul and passion than most "great" white singers that I've ever heard. IMO Teena Marie was the greatest white female vocalist ever...because of this very thing. Not only does she "sound" amazing, but you can feel her pain, her love, her passion when she sings. It's not about just holding a note and being in control of that note...it's more about the passion involved. A lot of the "greatness" involved in great opera singing includes being able to hold these notes for an astronomical amount of time. Ok.....so what. Is that all you can do?

Another excellent example is Aretha Franklin. Now when you listen to her voice, she really doesn't have the sweetest "sounding" voice. But her voice mixed in with the passion and soul that's poured into her performances, it puts her in a very small class...a class that usually involves mostly singers of the Soul genre.
Again, this is a difference of opinion. The great opera singers have more expression in their voices and more talent than anyone. I've seen the likes of Luther, Aretha, James Brown, etc. live. I've also seen Pavarotti, Domingo, Carraras, and other live. If you don't think that they don't evoke pure passion through their art than I don't know what else to say to you. Plus, to say that a lot of the greatness in opera includes being able to hold high notes for a long time has it's equivilent in how some soul singers overvocalize songs. With today's singers, it's more about the singer--in opera, it's about the singer performing the music. And thankfully the lyrics in opera actually mean something! A story! Not "oh baby, baby, baby, let's get it on..." Please, spare me this shi*.

Give me Sarah Vaughn or Billie Holiday over anything I've heard on American Idol.

And Janis Joplin--I'd rather have wisdom teeth pulled again before I listen to that horrific "singing."

But like I said, it's a matter of opinion and taste.

Oh, BTW, I think the likes of Brad Delp, Steve Perry, Mick Jones, Mike Reno, and Jon Anderson can hang with the guys you listed.
Old 17th March 2007
  #117
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
Again, this is a difference of opinion. The great opera singers have more expression in their voices and more talent than anyone. I've seen the likes of Luther, Aretha, James Brown, etc. live. I've also seen Pavarotti, Domingo, Carraras, and other live. If you don't think that they don't evoke pure passion through their art than I don't know what else to say to you. Plus, to say that a lot of the greatness in opera includes being able to hold high notes for a long time has it's equivilent in how some soul singers overvocalize songs. With today's singers, it's more about the singer--in opera, it's about the singer performing the music. And thankfully the lyrics in opera actually mean something! A story! Not "oh baby, baby, baby, let's get it on..." Please, spare me this shi*.

Give me Sarah Vaughn or Billie Holiday over anything I've heard on American Idol.

And Janis Joplin--I'd rather have wisdom teeth pulled again before I listen to that horrific "singing."

But like I said, it's a matter of opinion and taste.

Oh, BTW, I think the likes of Brad Delp, Steve Perry, Mick Jones, Mike Reno, and Jon Anderson can hang with the guys you listed.
You're right...it is a matter of opinion and what you were raised upon. What you call "overvocalizing," black folks may call it "the way a song should be sung" or "SANGIN' "...not "singing," which by our standards is a good thing. LOL
It's kinda like the old man complaining about how basketball players dribble between their legs and dunk. "Why can't they play the game like it should be played?" So labeling it "overvocalized singing," could kinda reflect on how you don't really understand the culture. As they say, "it's a black thang, you wouldn't understand," yet it is these extra elements that has made American black music THEE most copied, imitated, and adopted music ever. No one can deny this with a straight face.
Old 17th March 2007
  #118
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post
. As they say, "it's a black thang, you wouldn't understand," yet it is these extra elements that has made American black music THEE most copied, imitated, and adopted music ever. No one can deny this with a straight face.

Straight face on:

This had a little to do with rock and roll:
Country music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this has only been around for 1500 years.
Classical music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Come on, 3rd...open your horizons a little.
Old 18th March 2007
  #119
Lives for gear
 
Big 3rd's Avatar
 

Post what you want. The statement I made couldn't be more true. Black music and talents have been imitated and stolen more than any other form of music and talent....period. You are in serious denial if you think otherwise.

But if you feel you must hold on to your pride, then do so. Can't blame you. I wouldn't want to hear that **** either.
Old 18th March 2007
  #120
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big 3rd View Post

It is these extra elements that has made American black music THEE most copied, imitated, and adopted music ever.

Black music and talents have been imitated and stolen more than any other form of music and talent....period.
Well, I replied to the your first statement.

Make up your mind. Are blacks immensely tallented, or immensely victimized.

You've completely changed the subject. Did you really think it would go unnoticed?

By the way, you are wrong on both accounts, although you may have a case for STOLEN recorded music in the mid 20th century.

I'm going to end it here. Good night, 3rd.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump