Disclosure Kick Drum - Gearslutz.com
Disclosure Kick Drum
Old 15th July 2013
  #1
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Disclosure Kick Drum

Hello everybody!

I need help to recreate a sound or find its source:





Its the sound in those Videos. I really love the kick because it has a soft feeling but delivers enough energy to carry the track.

What i tried so far:

Using 808 and 909 samples (also taped ones). And apply an Pitch Envelope in the first 200 ms in an sampler with different env depth. Equing thebottom end and removing some low miss. EQ with a compressor with 20-50 ms attack and gentle gain reduction, applying LP Filter (12db/24db/36/db) with an envelope to fitler the tail...

The reason why i gone this attempt is because in the frequenzy analyzer I see a "pitch " ramp.

The problem i get is that whatever i do i do not get the solid bootom end and my attack/puch/transient gets way to sharp compared to those.

I know they use Drum Machines and samples so its hard to know the excact source. Can hou help me?

Thx and best regards
Tobias
Old 15th July 2013
  #2
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToBe View Post
Hello everybody!

I need help to recreate a sound or find its source:




It's not the kick, it's the entire track. Don't substitute songwriting with micro-editing and optimization. You're talking about ms and dB, but what's your songwriting like?

Then you can leave the kick to the ME who'll make it shine.
Old 15th July 2013
  #3
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
Songwriting is no Problem but i cant find a kick that i like ...

So you mean Group mastering?
Old 15th July 2013
  #4
I find this hard to believe, there's like a billion kicks out there....

Just stick to samples, download all the freebies from Gold Baby and Wave Alchemy as a start. If you can't find a suitable kick in there its not the kick thats your problem.

No Dough has nice house kicks too.


.
Old 15th July 2013
  #5
nms
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nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
leave the kick to the ME who'll make it shine.
What not to do!

If you really care about your kick drums you could make your life much easier by picking up Nerve at http://www.xferrecords.com
Old 15th July 2013
  #6
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Muser's Avatar
Try these. Kick 5 would need the tail editing down.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Disclose Kicks.zip (156.3 KB, 1171 views)
Old 16th July 2013
  #7
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Thread Starter
Thx i try the nerve demo.
Old 16th July 2013
  #8
Deleted #255447
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I found THESE to have some pretty good one shots if you want big and in your face "EDM" nuked style drums...
Old 16th July 2013
  #9
Gear interested
 

Thread Starter
The reason why I like this type of drum is that it is not in your face edm. I liek it because its soft warm without hurting high frequencies. and still it delivers enough punch to establish the pulse ....
Old 17th July 2013
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

Pretty nice kick! Not as good as the non-disclosure kick drum however, which unfortunately I can't show you.
Old 17th July 2013
  #11
Deleted #255447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrToBe View Post
The reason why I like this type of drum is that it is not in your face edm. I liek it because its soft warm without hurting high frequencies. and still it delivers enough punch to establish the pulse ....
OOPS. I couldn't watch the videos at the time of my post.

Anyway, if somebody asked me to design kicks with the description you just gave I would fire up one of my analogs and make it myself in just a few minutes by stacking a sine with a mid-high click and then edit, EQ, comp, limit, possibly some verb... to taste. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy to make these.
Old 15th October 2013
  #12
yeah,

once you get the hang of it..
And im still 'doing my time' till i get the MF hang of it (over 1,5 year, still sounds ****ed up)
Old 15th October 2013
  #13
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GJ999x's Avatar
lol

Sent from my GT-I9100P
Old 15th October 2013
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by padillac View Post
Pretty nice kick! Not as good as the non-disclosure kick drum however, which unfortunately I can't show you.
Ha love it
Old 16th October 2013
  #15
Deleted #255447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meneerzweerbeer View Post
yeah,

once you get the hang of it..
And im still 'doing my time' till i get the MF hang of it (over 1,5 year, still sounds ****ed up)
Well, it took me 4 or 5 years of daily trial and error grind to figure this **** out and be content with my chops.. that was the late 90's, before this forum, Youtube and all the instructional crap available today. Just get in there, get your hands dirty and do it
Old 17th July 2014
  #16
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milkyteee's Avatar
 

hey MrToBe, I was interested to find out how they made them as well, best kick drums I've heard, so jealous, anyway I've been trying out a load of drum synths and I'm pretty sure it's the Rob Papen Punch they're using Have fun
Old 18th July 2014
  #17
Gear Maniac
Layering a 909 style kick with a live kick gets quite good results, I use Drumazon to synthesise/tweak the 909 one then possibly boost around 50-80hz and audition a few hipassed live style kicks. It's sometimes the mid/high frequencies that help make them really hit.

Try lopassing the Disclosure kicks and tuning a 909 kick to that, then hipassing and finding a kick that sounds similar. Or grab Sonic Academy's Kick.
Old 18th July 2014
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJMC View Post
Layering a 909 style kick with a live kick gets quite good results, I use Drumazon to synthesise/tweak the 909 one then possibly boost around 50-80hz and audition a few hipassed live style kicks. It's sometimes the mid/high frequencies that help make them really hit.
This is good advice, and is where I have struck gold several times. Find a sample with the right bottom end and peel back the first 15ms of attack with an envelope, just destroying the transient on it. It should just be soft boom at this point. Then find a nice accoustic kick with a lot of punch, and shorten the hell out of it with an envelope also. We're not going to be EQing the crap out of samples (which usually sounds like crap IME) because it is a timing thing, not a frequency thing. Fit them together like a puzzle. Its a matter of milliseconds so be patient. Then gently compress together.

Or, you just need to find the one or two special kicks in a few different sample packs and put them in your "special kicks" folder. Then don't compress it, don't EQ it, and just get everything the hell out of its way. This is usually what is going on when people PM with, "Oh man, what is that kick? Is there sub layered? How many layers, 3 or 4?" The answer is no. Just find the right sample, and let it breathe.
Old 23rd September 2015
  #19
Gear Addict
 

Ok Timeout ! My apologies in advance for resurrecting this old thread but there are some related points of interest here so it saves me starting a new thread.

I'm four maybe five years in of 'learning' the craft and i finally thought i had worked out how to get my kicks like particular commercial productions. It turns out that i was completely wrong and probably on my way to losing my marbles.

Those in particular that come to mind are Eric Prydz, Daft Punk and Disclosure here. Now i've heard people call their kicks crap or average, fair enough, however under examination in a studio environment i find there is a low end 'thunder' to their kick subs that i do not find in all productions and i cannot emulate it for the life of me.

Over the years i have researched about kicks, spoken to producers, tried just about every sample pack - and there isn't a shed of light that brings me any closer to that sound.

It has got to be a technique that i just cannot see. I have tried everything. Actually i'll tell you where i am now :

Thanks to this thread, last year i tried Rob Papen Punch and i was able to emulate the sub of this kick in particular, actually really well -



I isolated a kick on repeat and low passed it carefully to where just the sub is. From there you can hear that there is some kind of ambience on the kick, this is what i believed was giving that impression of thunder.
However its just so difficult to emulate with any reverb or delay, hw or sw, gated, whatever. You cannot hear any kind of tail or early reflection, its just ambience lol ?
Distortion is another way of adding the impression of ambience, especially from amp sims, but this did not give the large impression of space, even when sending this to a reverb.
Anyway in the meantime i picked up the technique of carefully using reverb on a sub kick to add a layer of weight to it.
I moved on to emulating the top kick, which sounds like a simple synthesized 'fast pitch envelope' punch, but my god, the kick is SO short yet sounds like a complete top kick. I quickly browsed through samples, and not one of them were as short.
So i crafted it to sound as close as possible, but there isn't an envelope fast enough in software land to come close enough to their speed, while still sounding like a complete (top) kick. (Which reminds me i have to try on hardware).
I noticed a slight tambourine on top (which made me think of Vengeance Metrum) so i added that to the top kick.
There is alot of air/ambience to the top kick aswell and the closest i got was using an amp sim and muting the cabinet, then sending a slither to a verrrry short verb, then gating it.

So, i have my sub, my top and tambo, the sub verb and the top verb. I then bus them all or try every different combination. I try distortion of all sorts, eq, compression, tape, clipping, limiting, on every channel in every combination - and i'm no mug, i know how to use this tools, how to layer and level - not overdo the processing.
After taking a break, i come back to the studio fire up the session - and kaboom, i realise i have one big mighty sounding thump of a kick, that is still soft around the edges and still sounds clear. Feeling jubilant i compare my kick to theirs one last time - wow - my kick sounds like ASS.
So small, so narrow, so low, and none of the presence/air and thunder (in comparison). In comparison my kick sounds more thumpy more aggressive, but not in a good way and despite me aiming for a softer kick.

I know less is more, i make sure i don't add too much and mess up the original sound - but there must be a technique missing here that i have just not yet come across. I know first hand what hardware processing can do together - tubes, tape, compression, eq - there is a weight, depth and ambience given to it (my experience, i'm sticking with it), but i don't think its the answer.

I imagine the mastering is giving something to the track, but everybody has their tracks mastered right ? Yet not everybody has kicks that thunder like that.

I'm lost - oh and the envelope of the overall kick is just so fast ! Snap, punch, thump, thunderous sub all in one quick smooth movement.

Just what is adding the ambience/air without sounding like a reverb ? Sounds stupid to say. That plus tube distortion is what i think is missing.

Sorry for the long post, i lost my brain in that studio tonight and i need to sleep.
Old 25th September 2015
  #20
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Any takers ?
Old 1st October 2015
  #21
Here for the gear
 

maybe there's some white noise on it too?
Old 2nd October 2015
  #22
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilly_p View Post
maybe there's some white noise on it too?
On the kick itself ? Possibly. But its difficult to separate the sounds. The noise could be coming from anywhere in the drum processing, eg, added to drum bus and gated, or reverb.

On a side note, i'm having some luck synthesizing a kick into a customizable waveshaper. It gets me that shape and sound alot quicker.

Still can't get that 'thunder' and weighty sound/impact though.
Gotta play with the reverb some more, distort or compress it hard.
That sub is so large and weighty yet velvety/pillowy smooth.

*angry*
Old 6th October 2015
  #23
Gear Addict
 

Ok so.

Even though the sub from RP Punch looks and sounds exactly like the Disclosure sub, there is this thunderous weight missing.

What i've eventually noticed after adjusting my analyser is that the very low end is different. On Disclosure's sub, the 40-60hz bump is flatter and wider. The 'Punch' sub covers a narrower range at 40-60hz and and looks and sounds more like a resonant notch.
The movement of the sine at 40-60hz is slightly different aswell. Disclosure's sub kind of pulses down like a soft wave, in a rhythmic a hypnotic motion, while the bump kind of keeps its width along the way. The 'Punch' sub kind of skips quickly along to its final position and its bump remains narrow.

What i'm seeing here explains what i'm hearing - a soft pillowy, yet thunderous sub.

So i think its definitely a case of getting the synthesis right. I can't think of any processing that can create this. So now i am trying ISM Bazzism because it has more parameters for adjusting the sine's envelope with hopes i can get that low bump to behave the way i want it.

The question i have in my mind is, what frequency range are they synthesizing the sub in ? From the hi range to the low, then low pass and layer the top kick. Or just say 300hz down to 40hz and layer a top kick from 300hz up (or maybe even two more layers, mid and high?
I will experiment but i don't think its possible to get the sub right when only synthesizing from 300hz down to 40.

As for distortion, a waveshaper gets me the 'bumps' along the spectrum exactly in the same locations as the Discloure kick, however they have another distortion on top of that which is creating 'mini-bumps' on top of the initial bumps, even distorting the shape of the bumps closer to the very low end.
I am playing with all the distortions in parallel i have but i'm not too concerned with it at the moment, i am going to guess that layer of distortion comes from the mastering, i can hear even though this track sounds clean and sharp, it is actually heavily saturated, which of course explains the loudness aswell.

Getting the reverb right is still important. Sometimes with the right setting and room, even with a long decay it doesn't need a gate. It must be psychoacoustic because sometimes it just sits so right with the kick you don't hear the length of the decay, just sounds impressive.

How have i not got brain damage yet.
Old 6th October 2015
  #24
Gear Maniac
I think more than the Sample it is about mix and mastering.
Old 6th October 2015
  #25
yes I dont think its some miraculous sample they used but likely very good mixing and mastering...
Old 6th October 2015
  #26
Gear Addict
 

Update :

Its not reverb used, its a delay, which is possibly distorted and compressed.
The closest i got was the left delay as tight as possible and the right delay one notch slower, zero feedback or experiment, also with hp and lp filter.

I forgot to consider the stereo image, which i was looking into way back at the beginning. On the stereo scope the kick pulses outward less than half way of full stereo width. I forgot that i intended to experiment with a sampler and have an envelope modulate the pan, or maybe on the delay channel audio only.

It all points to a delay/stereo trick of some sort, not sure if its just the basic haas effect. Whatever it is, i believe it is really what makes the kick sound so large.

Also, despite me doing a good job with Bazzism (i managed to get the low end to move how i wanted it to), after coming back to the session i quickly heard that its still not as tight and fast as the Disclosure kick. I really don't know if i can get a software envelope to move that fast. Its a perfect little pulsation.

If anybody has any tips on the stereo/delay thing or getting a faster envelope, i'm all ears at this point.
Old 6th October 2015
  #27
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerond View Post
I think more than the Sample it is about mix and mastering.
I use to think that. But i can't see which processor or chain could actually create the characteristics. I usually think of processors as adding or subtracting, shaping.
The kick is a perfect 'play' button, like it was drawn.

I can see there is a subtle high passed distortion on there (cannot hear any distorted low end 'sound'), maybe some clipping was used aswell. Possibly tape or emulation.

But as in my last post, i think the impression of size is really created with that delay trick. Reverb is too slow. Their 'ambience' is as fast as the kick and you cannot hear any tails, but it sounds like it is in a space. When using a reverb, it is near impossible to disguise the sound of the ER or tail, if you drop the volume, you lose the impression of size. All the reverb ends up sounding like is a grated wheeze. Delay is much quicker, and leaves no tail, and gives a better impression of a giant kick.

Once i get to some conclusion i'll post up my examples, you'll see i've done well in synthesizing the kick.

Just gotta get my head around the speed of the kick envelope and which stereo trick. If i work this out, i can create any texture of kick i like while still maintaining the important structural elements.
Old 6th October 2015
  #28
Gear Addict
 

Progress.

Using Haas effect. Created two more copies/send of the kick and panned those hard left and right, then using a sample delay plug on both channels i experimented with different combinations and amounts, one side as the main delay but giving the opposite side just a touch of delay. Its possible to find a sweet spot where the kick sounds stronger without an increase in db, or ruining the kick shape and remains mono 'compatible'.

I then listened to the mono and side info in solo of the Disclosure kick and the mono is just the full kick (full frequency) but the side info is distorted and crushed right down into a little pulse that has lost its attack to the point where it almost sounds reversed.

I've only tried with Fabfilter Saturn so far, but the closest i got was to use the 'Destroy' distortion on the side info, then create an extra band at aorund 140hz and mute the band below 140hz, so only above is being distorted. If i didn't create a split band, then it still resembles a kick on the spectrum, whereas the low hz on the Disclosure kick has now changed shape. Even though i am muting below 140hz, there is still sub info coming through.

Regarding compression and eq, i had a quick fiddle and its possible to compress the kick without ruining the movement/envelope of the kick, but i used an oscilloscope plugin to keep an eye on it while i tried to get the best sound.

I can imagine using hardware would add a bit of extra beef.

The speed of their kick envelope still eludes me though. I will try FM8 tommorow and if i have any luck with that i might try FM in hardware form or maybe a quick go with the Virus.
Old 9th October 2015
  #29
you really should think about writing music rather than obsessing over this kick drum...
Old 10th October 2015
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
you really should think about writing music rather than obsessing over this kick drum...
I appreciate that and it is good advice for alot of people, but it is important to me and what i aim for.

Over the years, the producers who i have used as a benchmark, happen to have all nailed this kick, and they all stand out for their sonics. Its something i aim for.

I can write good tracks all day, in minutes really. Its how i came into this realm. I just had no idea how difficult it would be to get to the high standards (imo) of production.

Its something i'm comfortable to work on and i won't be giving up anytime soon.
These guys didn't just learn it overnight, you can be sure they spent most of their time learning the craft.

I don't see it as obsessing, i see it as learning and progression. The kick just happens to be an important anchor in my music so far. But these tricks will always be a useful tool no matter which direction i go.

Of course, i understand that people respond to the music, but i've observed that when you have the sonics aswell, people enjoy it even more, it has the ability to enhance the listeners experience.
It just has this stamp of quality about it, of credibility, professionalism, like you expect more from this artist.

In this time of internet saturation, its the excellence i need to strive for in order to push me up beyond underground artist. And why not

I'm verrry lucky recently to be friends with a good contact working for one of the biggest record labels on the planet, who is waiting for me to email my tracks. There is no way i'm ready yet. If the high standard is not there, its a complete waste of time, they won't even listen to it.
I need to have both the stand out musicality and the finished professional product - a mix engineer will not contribute towards my sonic signature, unfortunately i have to be the one to learn as much of the process as possible.

Not that i expect anything But its my passion that i have always been associated with and i don't mind one bit trying as hard as i possibly can to be heard. Everybody, including the contact, who hears my stuff is immediately rocking and i hear the same **** "why haven't you put this out" and i try to explain, they don't understand when i say it sounds like ****, so i demonstrate by playing it at matched volume next to my benchmarks and they are like "oh i see what you are saying".
But i'm getting there. I send the odd track to be mastered on the cheap just to see my progress. And yea i have been able to converse with producers over the years, the problem is, they are all from London underground music of the 90s, Jungle Dnb and House and Garage. Most of them had the same Mackie mixer, Akai/Emu sampler and E-mu racks set up and had very basic things to teach me. Despite being from some of the bigger labels like Metalheadz.

I'm sure there was a better way to reply and save you from all of that story
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