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Roland MKS-70 Upgrade/Modification beta testers wanted
Old 16th March 2013
  #61
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starspawn View Post
Damnit, maybe its user error?
When I set up a split on 2 midi channels and try to control for instance my VP550 hoping to get strings on lower and vocoder on upper, I get either one or both with the full keyboard range. The split is not there at all.
I don't know (need more disassembly or emulation testing) on the JX10. On the MKS70, the split point is ignored when tone A and tone B have two different midi channels, so you get 2 JX8P. If the 2 channels are the same, both upper and lower split points are used.

I was planning to fully support the midi key mode and midi split point on the JX10, in local off mode. Obviously, if both tones have the same "midi send" channel, the split point is a no-op.
Old 16th March 2013
  #62
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Starspawn's Avatar
 

Not sure I got all that, but it seems like you have full control.
Just wanted to add it in case it was unknown.

Good luck, and I hope the rest of us will refrain from bickering about what we want you to do :D
Old 16th March 2013
  #63
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BTW, anybody has the stock Roland JX10 eprom image ? (I only have 2.3SE) I would appreciate a copy... [Reason: on my emulator, I can't get "local off" mode to work]
Old 16th March 2013
  #64
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Starspawn's Avatar
 

I could send you my old eprom (I also upgraded to SE) If you Pm me your address. Im in Norway though so might take some time depending on location.
Old 16th March 2013
  #65
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Signifier's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesequence View Post
BTW I sent him a copule of email to colin@colinfraser.com but he never replied
Try support@sequentix.com - Barbara or Colin should respond. They are a ?two person company and get a lot of messages, but are usually good to reply.
Old 16th March 2013
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

While working on the JX10 code, I found a place where the assigner sends "lfo reset" to the sound boards. So the patch above is not sufficient to remove all lfo reset... So before anybody burns a new eprom, let me give you another location to patch to a 'nop' instruction ! [This patch is enough for MKS70]
Old 17th March 2013
  #67
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wavesequence's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
BTW, anybody has the stock Roland JX10 eprom image ? (I only have 2.3SE) I would appreciate a copy... [Reason: on my emulator, I can't get "local off" mode to work]
When I changed my EEPROM to ver. 2.3 I removed the original that's ver. 2.1
If you think it's good for you I can send it.
Old 17th March 2013
  #68
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wavesequence's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Sorry, but you got that all wrong imo.

It is easy to live with a synth without (proper) midi - look at all the vintage stuff that doesn't have it, and at least the JX does have basic midi for sequencing and program changes.
While i agree that it not the easiest synth to program from the front panel, it is not all that hard to do either - as it doesn't have the ridiculous amounts of parameters that newer (digital) synths have.

...what is really exciting about the upgrade is that this synth with its sloooooow envelopes and just one rather boring LFO could truly become a monster with added mod options.

I for one am drooling at the thought of having two snappy envelopes for filter and amp, and then being able to assign the slow envs with those really long attack and decay stages to e.g. pitch on the modulating oscillator, or oscillator mix, or what have you.
And then add some 60hz LFO (if possible) to that mix in small doses...

Slurrrrp!
grumphh
JX-10 midi implementation needs a strong tune up, because you can't edit without a P-800, and at the same time when you move its sliders and knobs sys-ex data isn't accessible at the MIDI OUT port of the synthesizer. This is a great limitation because you can't automate parameters through a sequencer.
As I said before, we should set priorities and not covering coolveco of strange and sometimes unattainable requests.
Because I'm an architect that believes into restoration, we can't add features that weren't present in the original JX-10 but we should make it's malfunctioning software parts well working for today's standard. And this should make coolveco's job easier.
Again, he could go ahead for steps:
1st step reorganizing JX-10 OS in order to be MIDI and sys-ex compliant, like a MKS-70
2nd step, just for the people who want another kind of JX-10, new envelopes, LFOs etc. etc. etc.
Old 17th March 2013
  #69
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesequence View Post
grumphh
JX-10 midi implementation needs a strong tune up, because you can't edit without a P-800, and at the same time when you move its sliders and knobs sys-ex data isn't accessible at the MIDI OUT port of the synthesizer. This is a great limitation because you can't automate parameters through a sequencer.
As I said before, we should set priorities and not covering coolveco of strange and sometimes unattainable requests.
Because I'm an architect that believes into restoration, we can't add features that weren't present in the original JX-10 but we should make it's malfunctioning software parts well working for today's standard. And this should make coolveco's job easier.
Again, he could go ahead for steps:
1st step reorganizing JX-10 OS in order to be MIDI and sys-ex compliant, like a MKS-70
2nd step, just for the people who want another kind of JX-10, new envelopes, LFOs etc. etc. etc.
I second this. And 1st step is already happening. With the same code base, JX10 and MKS70 will have the same midi implementation (sysex, midi receive, and midi send for the JX10).

I did more reverse-engineering today (JX10) and found interesting things about how the synth gets the keyboard info from the "gate array" chip. The interesting thing is that the data (keynote/velocity) is placed in a single memory spot (and IRQ is generated) but also in a table. Roland uses the interrupt to get the data and put it in table (which is scanned later, outside interrupt, and assigned to the board(s)), but they use the other table to generate the midi out events. I am still puzzled why they do that, since there is no reason. I tried simulating the loss of an interrupt, to see if the table is used to recover eventual missing events, but nope... Will debug more once I have the real JX10 in my hands

I'll be asking for more beta-testers once I have a stable JX10 code, because I can't test everything myself (even if I try to do a good job!)

Note that for the JX10, I am already dropping the lame sysex implementation from Roland, and will use the MKS70 sysex for now. This will have to change sooner or later, since they are also stupid things in the sysex (like a single parameter sent as 2 messages)
Old 17th March 2013
  #70
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesequence View Post
Because I'm an architect that believes into restoration, we can't add features that weren't present in the original JX-10 but we should make it's malfunctioning software parts well working for today's standard.
The most malfunctioning part of the software as far as i am concerned is the envelope programming...

And i am sorry, but the position of not wanting to upgrade a synth that needs it and is not a rare classic for historic reasons is absolutely facepalmworthy...

I can see that being able to program the synth with standard midi protocols is appealing (especially for those without the programmer), but if it still doesn't deliver on the envelope side then it doesn't really matter...

Sound makes a synth a classic, not midi integration.

And just for the record - altough the @dial is quite annoying it is absolutely no problem to program the synth from the front panel. It is still a rather basic analogue synth with a very reasonable parameter set, not a mod matrix software monster with 200+ parameters...
Old 18th March 2013
  #71
Gear nut
 
wayne_kerr's Avatar
 

I'm in seconding re envelopes.
I sold mine because I couldn't get snappy enough bass.
An xtra lfo would be incredible but cfaster envelopes would make me by another one rite this minute
Old 18th March 2013
  #72
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dougt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
BTW, anybody has the stock Roland JX10 eprom image ? (I only have 2.3SE) I would appreciate a copy... [Reason: on my emulator, I can't get "local off" mode to work]
Hi, I have the v1.9 factory JX-10 ROM image which I just emailed to you...
Old 18th March 2013
  #73
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depulse's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesequence View Post
grumphh
JX-10 midi implementation needs a strong tune up, because you can't edit without a P-800, and at the same time when you move its sliders and knobs sys-ex data isn't accessible at the MIDI OUT port of the synthesizer. This is a great limitation because you can't automate parameters through a sequencer.
As I said before, we should set priorities and not covering coolveco of strange and sometimes unattainable requests.
Because I'm an architect that believes into restoration, we can't add features that weren't present in the original JX-10 but we should make it's malfunctioning software parts well working for today's standard. And this should make coolveco's job easier.
Again, he could go ahead for steps:
1st step reorganizing JX-10 OS in order to be MIDI and sys-ex compliant, like a MKS-70
2nd step, just for the people who want another kind of JX-10, new envelopes, LFOs etc. etc. etc.

The main errors with the JX10 sysex has been addressed a long time ago by the Colin Fraser update. It's not optimal, but at least allow sysex editing.

I'm not downplaying or telling Coolveco what to do. I just see it as a first step.

Check what has been done to the JX3p and the Poly 800:

JX-3P Upgrade

The HAWK-800 and AtomaHawk Upgrade Kits for the Korg Poly-800MK1,MK2 and EX-800

Something similar for the MKS70/Super JX would be appreciated. It probably would require a new CPU, but it would be great if someone could finally address the short comings of these two synths.
Old 18th March 2013
  #74
Gear Nut
 
wavesequence's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by depulse View Post
The main errors with the JX10 sysex has been addressed a long time ago by the Colin Fraser update. It's not optimal, but at least allow sysex editing.
--- snip---
I attempted to do some editing with MidiQuest and its JX-8P module but I got weird results, although I installed ver. 2.3SE

At this time we can deal with PCJXWIN and dump/upload just complete banks of 64 Patches. This is not very comfortable.

Well, I don't take position against other people who ask for new fast envelopes and LFOs, all in all, this enhancement is good for me too, but I would be able to organize user tones and create my Patches without hassles, using an editor not the memory swapping via M-64C
Old 20th March 2013
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

Received the JX10 today... and again, I hate the post service. 4 keys are broken, and a dead display.

Keys are easy to replace (already located parts on ebay), but the display is insane. Hopefully, it is the coil, so I guess I'll have to fix that. Will now dig in my MKS70, to see the voltage being fed to the filaments of the VFD, and will create a new supply for that. Shouldn't be too hard... but who knows :(

-Fred
Old 20th March 2013
  #76
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was silents's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Old 20th March 2013
  #77
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
Received the JX10 today... and again, I hate the post service. 4 keys are broken, and a dead display.

Keys are easy to replace (already located parts on ebay), but the display is insane. Hopefully, it is the coil, so I guess I'll have to fix that. Will now dig in my MKS70, to see the voltage being fed to the filaments of the VFD, and will create a new supply for that. Shouldn't be too hard... but who knows :(

-Fred
Probably nothing to do with the postal service, welcome to the horrible world of the JX-10. I think all of the screens in the world are failing at the same time. I've had 2 and both the screens started dying in the last few months. Keys die too.
Old 20th March 2013
  #78
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Probably nothing to do with the postal service, welcome to the horrible world of the JX-10. I think all of the screens in the world are failing at the same time. I've had 2 and both the screens started dying in the last few months. Keys die too.
This is indeed the postal service. I had pictures of the synth before it was shipped, and it appeared fully functional (unless the seller lied). The keys were definitely fine, and were broken due to poor handling. The shock/vibration probably killed the coil.

That said, I have scope traces of the voltages. The negative DC voltage (-38V) is fine, it's the filament supply which is dead. Will try to measure what it on the MKS70, and will build a replacement unit... A nasty waste of time. If that doesn't work, it's still ok, and I'll find a backlighted LCD of the same size, and will drive it. Since I own the assigner code, I can send what I want to my display
Old 24th March 2013
  #79
Gear Nut
 
wavesequence's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
This is indeed the postal service. I had pictures of the synth before it was shipped, and it appeared fully functional (unless the seller lied). The keys were definitely fine, and were broken due to poor handling. The shock/vibration probably killed the coil.

That said, I have scope traces of the voltages. The negative DC voltage (-38V) is fine, it's the filament supply which is dead. Will try to measure what it on the MKS70, and will build a replacement unit... A nasty waste of time. If that doesn't work, it's still ok, and I'll find a backlighted LCD of the same size, and will drive it. Since I own the assigner code, I can send what I want to my display
How're the things going?? We all are praying for you
Old 24th March 2013
  #80
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavesequence View Post
How're the things going?? We all are praying for you
Hey, thanks I had friends this weekend, so not much time to test. That didn't prevent me from thinking, and I know believe that a simple 220/110 -> 5-0-5 transformer should work (with a current limiting resistor). Now need to figure out how much current the filament requires. (too much and it will die...)
Old 25th March 2013
  #81
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
Hey, thanks I had friends this weekend, so not much time to test. That didn't prevent me from thinking, and I know believe that a simple 220/110 -> 5-0-5 transformer should work (with a current limiting resistor). Now need to figure out how much current the filament requires. (too much and it will die...)
Bad news... I removed the display board, desoldered 2 wires (to isolate the filament) and discovered that the filament is broken (open-circuit). With a magnifier glass, I can't see the damage, but it must be there...

Now the solution is to find a replacement vfd module, but I doubt I'll succeed, or use a modern display.
Old 25th March 2013
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
Bad news... I removed the display board, desoldered 2 wires (to isolate the filament) and discovered that the filament is broken (open-circuit). With a magnifier glass, I can't see the damage, but it must be there...

Now the solution is to find a replacement vfd module, but I doubt I'll succeed, or use a modern display.
theres bound to be something that will work, though i seem to remember a few yrs ago someone getting replacement vfds?

thinking about getting a s-jx if this pans out,

cheers
Old 26th March 2013
  #83
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marino's Avatar
Hi Coolveco, sorry to hear that you receive your JX damaged. I'm not technical enough to be of help, but please don't give up. You're doing a much needed work, and it's much appreciated. I'll get your mod for sure when it's ready.
Was the package insured?
Old 26th March 2013
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolveco View Post
That said, I have scope traces of the voltages. The negative DC voltage (-38V) is fine, it's the filament supply which is dead. Will try to measure what it on the MKS70, and will build a replacement unit... A nasty waste of time. If that doesn't work, it's still ok, and I'll find a backlighted LCD of the same size, and will drive it. Since I own the assigner code, I can send what I want to my display
Hi Fred.
I think it would be the most excellent upgrade if you would find a replacement solution for the whole VFD plus Sumida coil inverter. The VFD and the coil, both are timebombs, they can die at any moment. I have a JX8P, a JX10 and two MKS70s. One of the MKS and the JX10 already have the dying coil symptoms. I could rewind the coils but it would be a temporary solution and one day the vacuum will go away from the tube making these synth unusable.

If I would have the programing knowledge it would be my first concern to solve the display problem (with modern LED backlit LCDs) even before the new software for better MIDI implementation and additional synth features.

Anyway, it is wonderful you do this fantastic work and make it available for us. My hat of to you.
I can help to test things, I have access to EPROM programmer.


chrissugar
Old 26th March 2013
  #85
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was silents's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Old 26th March 2013
  #86
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
Hi Fred.
I think it would be the most excellent upgrade if you would find a replacement solution for the whole VFD plus Sumida coil inverter. The VFD and the coil, both are timebombs, they can die at any moment. I have a JX8P, a JX10 and two MKS70s. One of the MKS and the JX10 already have the dying coil symptoms. I could rewind the coils but it would be a temporary solution and one day the vacuum will go away from the tube making these synth unusable.

If I would have the programing knowledge it would be my first concern to solve the display problem (with modern LED backlit LCDs) even before the new software for better MIDI implementation and additional synth features.

Anyway, it is wonderful you do this fantastic work and make it available for us. My hat of to you.
I can help to test things, I have access to EPROM programmer.


chrissugar

While I was looking for a replacement VFD display, I found out that the S-50 is using the same display (same power-supply as the MKS70, but JX10 VFD) and.. some luck... I found one S-50 display board for sale on ebay (from a known seller...). The board is now being shipped to my place.. Hopefully, I'll get this one in good shape, and will replace the broken display this week.

If that doesn't work... the solution is to replace it with a LCD module. Technically, this is "easy", but mechanically, it's not. There is not much place between the display board and the display window. (LCD modules are thick). Furthermore, LCD displays with 1 line of 32 chars are hard to find. 16x2 is very common, so is 40x2, but 32x1... (even 40x1). I also searched for graphics LCD (would be pretty cool to use different fonts), but didn't find anything matching the display window. That said, accommodating a LCD is easy with the new code. Would still require a microcontroller to convert serial data (coming from the assigner cpu) into LCD data. With the existing code, this is also doable, although I haven't understood some commands sent to the VFD display (it is driven by a rom-masked microcontroller). If my replacement VFD doesn't work, this will be my remaining solution to get a display :(
Old 31st March 2013
  #87
Gear interested
 

I've got my fingers crossed for you man, on that VFD replacement. This is a terrific project and it sounds like you've made so much progress already! I'm really glad to see you decided to develop it from the beginning also for the JX-10. Even though it made it more challenging as it turns out.

It seems slightly backwards that an MKS-70 goes for a little more $ than a JX-10 that includes a great keyboard, just because of the MIDI. -John
Old 11th April 2013
  #88
Gear Maniac
 

My display is FIXED !

The VFD from the S-50 did the trick. Mine had its filament broken (weird because it looks intact, so it must be the connection somewhere inside the glass).

Now I need a longer cable to connect my eprom emulator to the assigner board (the one I have is too short)...

And I now have a spare coil for my MKS70 (the S-50 display uses the same circuit as the MKS70)

Cheers

-Fred
Old 11th April 2013
  #89
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Starspawn's Avatar
 

Good to know, we are still cheering for you
Old 21st April 2013
  #90
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fenchelteefee's Avatar
 

Plans to mod Oberheim Matrix 6/ 6r?

Thanks Fred for your big engagement. I'm sure, you'll accomplish a great contribution for JX10/MKS 70 lovers out there. I still remember when I heard the very first sound coming from the JX - unbelievable! It was my first synths and of course vintage and analogue, but the sound was (is) just noble, silky and very solid. Now I knew the machines doing the shapes behind Hans Zimmers epic soundtracks (yes, he used the MKS-80, I know, but soundwise, they're equal). I did the Colin Frazer OS upgrade, too, which enabled me doing synth programming outside Cubase using SysEx Device Panels, designed for the MKS-70. This opened a world of new possibilities allowing for agile music creation and even parameter alteration in realtime. I certainly not agree people stating you can program the beast jog-dialing the sounds on a daily basis. You loose all your inspiration and mojo just altering current patches, not to mention creating sounds from scratch.

That's said, thumbs for you guys, making such gifts for us.

P.S - As somebody mentioned here earlier, are there any plans to mod Oberheim Matrix 6/ 6r? This beauty has such a charming tone, but suffers the same controlling issues like Rolands. SysEx IS implemented, but commands are delayed till unusability.
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