CHEAP bucket brigade delay- Akai Vs Behringer Vs MXR Vs Arctec Vs Biyang Vs Hofner
Old 6th September 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Been doing a little digging on the Biyang... turned up this:

GFS Pedals - Seymour Duncan User Group Forums

'The Biyang AD-8 (Tonefancier series) is a pedal based on BBD chips, it makes use of the MN3007 (1024-BBD chip) and that is steered by a MN3101 chip, this is the model they call 'the double chipset group'. This Biyang AD-8 can be concidered an analog delay because of the use of the MN3007 BBD-chip, note that a chip like the MN3007 is far from cheap!!

Biyang's AD-10 (Babyboom series) makes use of a PT2399 chip, and can be concidered a digital delay that emulates an analog delay.'



Furthermore, according to this: Biyang AD8 Analog Double Chip Delay Pedal

... The AD-8 also goes up to 1100ms

So it seems the AD-8 & AD-10 have VERY similar specs... only the 8 is fully analogue, whereas the 10 is semi-analogue.

Given that they are the same price, I'm unclear then why anyone would want the AD-10?

There's a lot of misinformation out there! Put it this way, 1100ms is a huge amount for a BBD, you don't find them that long for that cheap. There was a Moogerfooger one that was 1000 dollars or something.

Check this out:

Biyang AD8 (Double Chipset) Delay Pedal with clean tone - YouTube

In the comments:

" It´s two digital PT2399 chips, believe me or show me that I´m wrong... Even Biyang themselves? confirmed that, saying that "analog" only means that it sounds analog. I had a AD-8 and I had a look inside. And btw: I´m a pedal builder myself, I know what I´m talking about..."

Edit: And from that thread on GFS you linked!

"The Biyang AD-8 Analog Delay is digital, not analog. Just as AD-10 it uses PT2399 chip and not an analog BBD. The picture shown above is not from AD-8, actualy it is not from delay effect at all. The MN3007 BBD as mentioned is 1024 stage BBD, so to reach 1100ms delay of AD-8 you need like 16 of them, which would be insanity. The MN3007 is used primarly in chorus and flanger pedals, they are rather common and you can find them in Biyang CH-7. The costly ones are MN3005 (4096 stages) and MN3008 (2048 stages). In AD-8 case there are actualy 2 of PT2399, first one gives 600ms while the second is engaged for 1100ms mode, hence effect is marked as dual chip."
Old 6th September 2011
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morechips View Post
Simonator - I don't know if you have a small desk or not? but if you have one hunt down a cheapo rack unit (digitech quad goes for little £s) route it through a couple of the channel strips and send a touch back to the delay unit in's....tweak the eq and return amounts to taste! If you have an analogue filter unit (I seem to remember a post that implied you might have) could be a great way to add some analogue grit.
No desk or analogue filter unfortunately :_(
[cue violins]

I have got an interface with many analogue I/Os though... so I can easily set up outboard FX as a send/return from Logic.


Related to what you are saying, the Jomox offerings look nice... stereo, combined analogue filter + digital delay (IIRC).

Ideally, I'd like a Restyler + a 201 Space Echo.
Old 6th September 2011
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
There's a lot of misinformation out there!
Huh! Well, thanks for pointing that out!!

EDIT: It still sounds pretty cool though, and does have long delays.


@Rockman... so if the AD8 & AD10 have virtually the same specs & chips.... wtf is the difference then?... just that one has a pink case!!?? o_0
Old 6th September 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
No desk or analogue filter unfortunately :_(
[cue violins]

I have got an interface with many analogue I/Os though... so I can easily set up outboard FX as a send/return from Logic.


Related to what you are saying, the Jomox offerings look nice... stereo, combined analogue filter + digital delay (IIRC).

Ideally, I'd like a Restyler + a 201 Space Echo.
Got to be careful with some these pedals, some don't do 100% wet.
Old 6th September 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Huh! Well, thanks for pointing that out!!

EDIT: It still sounds pretty cool though, and does have long delays.


@Rockman... so if the AD8 & AD10 have virtually the same specs & chips.... wtf is the difference then?... just that one has a pink case!!?? o_0
Far-Eastern marketing! The pink ones look 'boutique' and the shiny ones look 'bling'. It's like all the soap brands on the shelf at Tescos, all made about about 2 or 3 companies.

These Biyangs do sound good, but if you're mixing ITB surely one of the plug-in ones would do the job? I'm sure I've heard some good ones, maybe these? Audio Damage :: Effects
Old 6th September 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Got to be careful with some these pedals, some don't do 100% wet.
Cheers. Good point.

Not a major problem... I can just route my track to it directly, record the result, then disable the original.

Thanks for pointing that out though!
Old 6th September 2011
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Far-Eastern marketing! The pink ones look 'boutique' and the shiny ones look 'bling'. It's like all the soap brands on the shelf at Tescos, all made about about 2 or 3 companies.
Ha ha.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
These Biyangs do sound good, but if you're mixing ITB surely one of the plug-in ones would do the job? I'm sure I've heard some good ones, maybe these? Audio Damage :: Effects
True, true.

The thought process went something like:

* Want a Space Echo, but can't afford one
* DANG... Behringer analogue BBD for £17!!!... might quell a little GAS
* ... but for another £10 there's xxxxx
* ... but for an additional £20 there's xxxxx


.. But I do feel there would be a mojo benefit to having hands-on control of a wild BBD, compared to just assigning some midi-knobs to a plug-in.



So, Rockman, are the claims that the Behringer is '100% analogue' true, or is this more BS? Obviously this is only 300ms, so (from what you've said) seems more feasible than the 1100ms offerings.
Old 6th September 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Ha ha.
.. But I do feel there would be a mojo benefit to having hands-on control of a wild BBD, compared to just assigning some midi-knobs to a plug-in.
Hands-on is definitely more fun but if the plug-ins work well with knobs maybe the fun factor gets close? You don't need many knobs for a delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
So, Rockman, are the claims that the Behringer is '100% analogue' true, or is this more BS? Obviously this is only 300ms, so (from what you've said) seems more feasible than the 1100ms offerings.
Yes they're real BBD, Behringer own CoolAudio who make all these BBD chips these days. For 17 quid you can't go wrong really, and I bet someone would buy it for that on Ebay if you didn't like it. 300ms is a bit short though.
Old 6th September 2011
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
300ms is a bit short though.
I'm probably about to win the dunce of the week award here... but would it not be possible for someone (with the requisite knowledge) to pop 3 of these units open, then do some clever wiring to connect the delay stages in series (but with a single time length controller dial routed to all 3), then just take the feedback circuit from one of them... et voila- 900ms fully analogue BBD for £51?
Old 6th September 2011
  #40
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seen-da-sizer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
In the comments:

" It´s two digital PT2399 chips, believe me or show me that I´m wrong... Even Biyang themselves? confirmed that, saying that "analog" only means that it sounds analog. I had a AD-8 and I had a look inside. And btw: I´m a pedal builder myself, I know what I´m talking about..."

Edit: And from that thread on GFS you linked!

"The Biyang AD-8 Analog Delay is digital, not analog. Just as AD-10 it uses PT2399 chip and not an analog BBD. The picture shown above is not from AD-8, actualy it is not from delay effect at all. The MN3007 BBD as mentioned is 1024 stage BBD, so to reach 1100ms delay of AD-8 you need like 16 of them, which would be insanity. The MN3007 is used primarly in chorus and flanger pedals, they are rather common and you can find them in Biyang CH-7. The costly ones are MN3005 (4096 stages) and MN3008 (2048 stages). In AD-8 case there are actualy 2 of PT2399, first one gives 600ms while the second is engaged for 1100ms mode, hence effect is marked as dual chip."
I got this photo (inside an AD-8) from the Seymour Duncan forum:



and this comment from a member:

Quote:
The Biyang AD-8 (Tonefancier series) is a pedal based on BBD chips, it makes use of the MN3007 (1024-BBD chip) and that is steered by a MN3101 chip, this is the model they call 'the double chipset group'. This Biyang AD-8 can be concidered an analog delay because of the use of the MN3007 BBD-chip, note that a chip like the MN3007 is far from cheap!!
Does that mean the AD-8 is analog?
Old 6th September 2011
  #41
Gear interested
 

I've recently bought an MXR Carbon Copy and I like it very much so far. Soundwise it's rather on the grungy side and it does some of the "tape magic" pretty well.

I made a quick recording of it. The sounds are just me gently noodling on my DX7 through the delay only. The first part has some cleaner delays and the second shows more dirty textures in the background. I wasn't in the mood to do more wicked in your face sounds today but this pedal can certainly rip your ears off if needed ;-)

It's got ~600ms max but being a BBD device, the longer the delay time, the darker it sounds.
Attached Files
MXRgentleoscillations.mp3 (4.28 MB, 1163 views)
Old 6th September 2011
  #42
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer View Post
I got this photo (inside an AD-8) from the Seymour Duncan forum:

...

Does that mean the AD-8 is analog?
If you read further into the thread, someone else points out that in fact, this is NOT the inside of an AD-8, and that all the info in post you quoted is incorrect.
The person who posted it also acknowledges this & apologises for the error.
Old 6th September 2011
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambientbirch View Post
...
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for joining to share this with us!

Nice demo!
Old 6th September 2011
  #44
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Soo.. which are truly analog from your list Simonator?

I do notice many studio pics and people here have the MXR..so maybe that one is a really good one?

What about the EH Memory Man? ..isn't that one supposedly fly too?
Old 6th September 2011
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooddude View Post
Soo.. which are truly analog from your list Simonator?
Well, from what we've established so far in this thread, the only one we seem to be certain of is the Behringer!

I'm assuming the MXR & EHX are as well (?).
Old 6th September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
If you read further into the thread, someone else points out that in fact, this is NOT the inside of an AD-8, and that all the info in post you quoted is incorrect.
The person who posted it also acknowledges this & apologises for the error.
Yeah, that is why I am raising the question. Forum posts always have to get triple checked. Thanks for the heads up!

I am interested in getting am additional delay too. I don't mind digital though. Still the Strymon El Capistan is my first choice, but I would love to get that in a 19" rack version. The Strymon is outside your budget though...
Old 6th September 2011
  #47
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another +1 for a used MXR
a di box will give a better impedance match out of the computer, but you could feed directly from a hw synth
Old 6th September 2011
  #48
Gear interested
 

Yes, MXR works fine when fed directly from a synth. I like the build quality - the switch is really smooth, quiet and easy to operate by hand.

For self-oscillating sounds I prefer to use it with a spring reverb. This combination makes it sound more like a tape echo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for joining to share this with us!

Nice demo!
Thanks, I hope it was useful. Tomorrow I'll make another one, this time with a bit higher delay mix level and more aggressive sounds.
Old 6th September 2011
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seen-da-sizer View Post
Yeah, that is why I am raising the question. Forum posts always have to get triple checked. Thanks for the heads up!
Ahh... I think my post was unclear, and I can't help but feel you mightn't have understood what I meant to say...

... When I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
If you read further into the thread, someone else points out that in fact, this is NOT the inside of an AD-8, and that all the info in post you quoted is incorrect.
... I meant the thread (that you linked to) on the Seymour Duncan forum... not in this thread.
Old 6th September 2011
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxyz View Post
another +1 for a used MXR
a di box will give a better impedance match out of the computer, but you could feed directly from a hw synth
Thanks.

I have a DI box already, or, alternatively, my Kraftzwerg is already at mic level... so nice & easy.
Old 6th September 2011
  #51
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Originally Posted by ambientbirch View Post
Thanks, I hope it was useful. Tomorrow I'll make another one, this time with a bit higher delay mix level and more aggressive sounds.
I'll look forward to it ;-)
Old 6th September 2011
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Ahh... I think my post was unclear, and I can't help but feel you mightn't have understood what I meant to say...
You have been clear!
Old 6th September 2011
  #53
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not particularly cheap but I have a couple top BBD pedal picks -

been eyeing this one for a while although I'd prefer it have it's I/O on the rear of the enclosure Malekko Heavy Industry «» Ekko 616

if you are willing to roll your own the BYOC analog delay seems a solid choice (US based pedal kit supplier) analogdelay - delay time depends on how you adjust the pedal - the lower the delay time the clearer the delay repeats, i believe it can go between around 800ms to up to 1200ms maximum delay time if you are willing to let it get awfully grainy, but I'm not sure as I have not built this kit yet although there's a good chance it's not too far in my future

I would have already gotten the BYOC analog delay by now but I have been unable to suss out any particularly easy/worthwhile mods as of yet, so it's a bit plain jane although the demos sound nice. I have built their analog flanger and it sounds freaking excellent, I'm a big fan of their optical compressor pedal also - will add some mods to that bad boy at some point (attack switch, release knob)
Old 7th September 2011
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Is that the one that takes the obscure cartridges?
yeah. you can find them still, or erase already recorded on ones, which is the cheaper option, but I'm not sure if it effects quality.

there is also a mod to extend the delay time, just a simple pot swap.

but again i haven't heard mine yet so i have no idea. there all over youtube however.
Old 7th September 2011
  #55
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Originally Posted by sameal View Post
yeah. you can find them still, or erase already recorded on ones, which is the cheaper option, but I'm not sure if it effects quality.
Also think there are people who will replace the tape for you, and IIRC, some other substitutes that weren't specifically designed for the device... but happen to work if you snap a few bits here & glue a few bits there.
Old 7th September 2011
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
Also think there are people who will replace the tape for you, and IIRC, some other substitutes that weren't specifically designed for the device... but happen to work if you snap a few bits here & glue a few bits there.
yeah you gotta mod other carts to fit, but it's easy. mine came with an original, but i think the record head on mine is dead. either that or the tapes a shit. haven't been able to figure it out.

and it's sitting at the back of the line right now for projects. which is a loooooonnnnnnggg line at the moment.
Old 7th September 2011
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
I'd ideally like to be able to do 1/4 dotted time... 720ms at 125bpm... so say 800/900ms to be safe.

!
There's not much choice in cheap analogue delay that does those sort of lengths.
I'd vote for a second hand Electro harmonix memoryboy or memorytoy but they only go to 550 ms or so.
Most analogue delays seem to be in the 300 ms to 600 ms range.
Old 7th September 2011
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post


One general question... with these being GUITAR PEDALS... will I simply be able to route out of my interface to this, then back to a regular input... or will I need to step the signal down with a D.I. box prior to the pedal... then record it back through a microphone pre-amp input?... I suspect the latter, right?
It's a mixture of both.
Some handle line level signals fine - others not so fine.
Most I've tried handle -10dbu inputs better than +4dbu

Same with outputs.
With some pedals you'll need a D.I./preamp to record the output - with others you wont and can hook them up to line inputs.

It all just depends on the particular circuits used .
Old 7th September 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonator View Post
The Mellos tape delays are affordable too ... but look like they are not so fully featured & a pain to maintain.

I think if I were going tape it would need to be a Watkins Copicat or a Space Echo.
I've got one of the Melos units - it's a straight-up copy of an Univox unit, though not sure about the exact model (the Melos is simply called "Echo Chamber"). Sounds nice (and uses the same cartridges as the Univox), but as you said, it's very limited (and noisy). You can get replacement cartridges or the old ones rewound at MyTapeEcho.
Old 7th September 2011
  #60
Gear interested
 

Here's a more aggressive audio clip from the MXR Carbon Copy.

*** Warning! This audio hurts. There are sudden volume spikes at the beginning and at the end so be careful when listening on headphones. ***
Attached Files
MXRmadness.mp3 (2.34 MB, 1040 views)
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