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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 9th March 2017
  #721
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3Crystals's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
This is a first draft of our "D" Synth with a proposed feature set below.

Our goal is to design in a Poly Chain feature that allows combining up to 16 synths through Midi.

Depending on the feedback we will then decide if we move further and build a first prototype.

Our targeted retail price is around US$ 400.

Analog Synthesizer with 3 VCOs, 24 dB Ladder Filter, LFO, 16-Voice Poly Chain and Eurorack Format

1. Analog synthesizer with triple VCO design
2. Reproduction of original “D Type” with matched transistors and JFETs
3. 0.1% Thin Film resistors and Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors for frequency stability
4. Analog signal path based on authentic VCO, VCF and VCA designs
5. 5 variable oscillator shapes with pulse width variation
6. Classic 24 dB ladder filter with resonance
7. Fully analog triangle/square wave LFO
8. Switchable low/high pass filter mode
9. 16-voice Midi Poly Chain allows combining multiple synthesizers for up to 16-voice polyphony
10. Overdrive circuit
11. Noise generator
12. Complete Eurorack solution – main module can be transferred to a standard Eurorack case
13. 46 controls for real-time access of all important parameters
14. External audio input for processing external sound sources
15. Low and high level outputs
16. Comprehensive MIDI implementation with MIDI channel and Voice Priority selection
17. 3-Year Warranty Program

Uli
Take my money again ULI..1st my DM12 Now this....
Old 9th March 2017
  #722
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goony's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ.MacReady View Post
I think this design is different enough than an actual Model D that if you are going to criticize Behringer on this one then you'll have to criticize synthesizers.com, Studio Electronics, etc... Behringer has already committed to doing original AND classic synths.
Yep totally agree, its quite different from a straight copy. Obviously desktop module which is biggest difference, plus also what looks like jack inserts/outputs on the different sections etc. Plus chainable :-) And of course the price.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #723
Gear Head
 
trigg's Avatar
Great stuff Uli!

One suggestion: Please put the midi and usb connections on the back.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #724
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goony's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by trigg View Post
Great stuff Uli!

One suggestion: Please put the midi and usb connections on the back.
Then 'some' people would say they were copying others
Old 9th March 2017
  #725
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
This is a first draft of our "D" Synth with a proposed feature set below.

Our goal is to design in a Poly Chain feature that allows combining up to 16 synths through Midi.

Depending on the feedback we will then decide if we move further and build a first prototype.

Our targeted retail price is around US$ 400.

Analog Synthesizer with 3 VCOs, 24 dB Ladder Filter, LFO, 16-Voice Poly Chain and Eurorack Format

1. Analog synthesizer with triple VCO design
2. Reproduction of original “D Type” with matched transistors and JFETs
3. 0.1% Thin Film resistors and Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors for frequency stability
4. Analog signal path based on authentic VCO, VCF and VCA designs
5. 5 variable oscillator shapes with pulse width variation
6. Classic 24 dB ladder filter with resonance
7. Fully analog triangle/square wave LFO
8. Switchable low/high pass filter mode
9. 16-voice Midi Poly Chain allows combining multiple synthesizers for up to 16-voice polyphony
10. Overdrive circuit
11. Noise generator
12. Complete Eurorack solution – main module can be transferred to a standard Eurorack case
13. 46 controls for real-time access of all important parameters
14. External audio input for processing external sound sources
15. Low and high level outputs
16. Comprehensive MIDI implementation with MIDI channel and Voice Priority selection
17. 3-Year Warranty Program

Uli
I am disappointed.
I expected it to be something like a rack "Model D on steroids and with some beneficial mutations", not an almost 1 to 1 copy.
The switches and the knobs are totally unnecessarily similar/identical to the original.
Same with the UI layout, colors and even section names and (wow!) the same font.
Come on... I would be embarassed to have something like that.
Make it your own synth that sounds like the original, not a cheap copy for the poor.

I really believe that a 4 oscillator design would be better and would allow you to advertise it as something more than Model D, you could even make paraphony optional.
1 LFO would have to be analog, but 2 additional digital LFOs with many shapes (not just 2) taken straight from the DM12 would be such a good idea.
Add at least 1 digital envelope from DM12.
A small mod matrix.
Basically use many of the great ideas you implemented in DM12.
I would pay 100$ or even 200$ more if it had all that.

Also i am not so sure i would want #3 to be in a Moog like synthesizer where i can always quickly reach for the knob and re-tune the oscillator that drifted too far.
A Minimoog is a Minimoog because it is a wild, drifty beast (among other reasons of course).
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Old 9th March 2017
  #726
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trigg View Post
Great stuff Uli!

One suggestion: Please put the midi and usb connections on the back.
it needs to stay on the front as the unit can come out and be put into a eurorack case..
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Old 9th March 2017
  #727
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Syn303's Avatar
looks good, finally a cut price minimoog desktop module for the 21st century. who cares if the connectors are on the front. if it delivers that same bass sound as the mini, then i will buy one.

final word to Uli, please do re-release the V-Verb Pro again...
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Old 9th March 2017
  #728
Lives for gear
 

What's the eurorack width? 60HP - i.e. fits side by side (top/bottom) with a Mother-32?
Old 9th March 2017
  #729
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soultrane's Avatar
OK, that's not too bad, I admit.

I sense there's a lot of young cats on this board who don't remember Behringer's history of doing more or less straight 1:1 clones, and that's what had a lot of us old timers up in arms.

Behringer will have a $400 Moog, a $600 1176, and a $700 Pultec. That's about $12k in gear for under $2k, if it all sounds good.... let's hear it!
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Old 9th March 2017
  #730
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CasimirsBlake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn303 View Post
final word to Uli, please do re-release the V-Verb Pro again...
I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here: Where is Behringer's Harmonizer / MultiFX clone / equivalent? They have the tech. I was quite disappointed to see no audio input on the DM12 meaning there's no other way to harness those tasty on-board effects. I don't want / need an X Air mixer. Pretty much only Eventide have a studio multi effects unit in production, I don't think there are any others currently available?
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Old 9th March 2017
  #731
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acealive's Avatar
Is that a CV In at the Oszillator Section ? "OSC IN" ?
Would it be possible to give each Oszillator it's own CV Input ?

Or an option to play the Synth paraphonically via MIDI ? 3 Oszillators theoretically means it could play a basic chord.

apart from that: great pix and some very good ideas so far !

I might buy that. Which I hadn't guessed at first.

P.S.:
I like the MIDI and USB Connections on the front. I hate crawling behind my desk to connect my equipment

Last edited by acealive; 9th March 2017 at 03:34 PM..
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Old 9th March 2017
  #732
Lives for gear
 

Will this respond to aftertouch in some way?

Some suggestions for the rendering:

I'd replace the switches with colored buttons that light up, I think it would make for clearer feedback. Maybe this can't be done because the switches are part of the circuit or something, I don't know.

Yes, I did just ask for more LEDs, I live dangerously

More seriously, I'd update the labeling terminology to what is common today instead of copying the Minimoog. Replace "Filter Emphasis" with "Resonance" or "Countour" with "Envelope Generator" or some such.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Depending on the feedback we will then decide if we move further and build a first prototype.

Uli
Polyphonic and that you can save presets, it would be perfect!
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Old 9th March 2017
  #734
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
please no LED's I can't stand lights on synths, makes them look cheap n silly at times..
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Old 9th March 2017
  #735
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Agreed on no LEDs. I hate em too.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #736
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Last System View Post
Polyphonic and that you can save presets, it would be perfect!
Polyphony can be achieved with polychaining and presets with patch sheets. Problem solved.

I think it's great that they have gone with a simplistic approach to keep the price in check. If the classic tone is there, this is going to fly off the shelves at $400.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #737
Gear Head
 

Eurorack compatible?

Take my money!
Old 9th March 2017
  #738
Does it come with rack ears? I assume this is 19" wide

Last edited by Reptil; 9th March 2017 at 05:38 PM.. Reason: duh
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Old 9th March 2017
  #739
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
please no LED's I can't stand lights on synths, makes them look cheap n silly at times..
You don't like the buttons on your Deepmind?

The Slim Phatty had plenty of lights but still looked great IMO, particularly when arranged in a polyphonic tower of sci-fi equipment:

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Old 9th March 2017
  #740
Gear Head
Instant purchase for me. This is exceptional!
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Old 9th March 2017
  #741
373097
Guest
Being able to save presets, even if only available via a software "editor" or a VST plug-in would be very useful. I like to switch between projects often, and would appreciate patch recall. This would be make or break for me.

I don't mind the midi/usb cable location. If you put them on the back (top) then rack mounting becomes an issue, the cables would require more space.

Can a Eurorack module also be mounted in a standard 19" rack? I don't know the Eurorack specifications. I could see mounting 4 of these to make a 4-voice. Not sure how easy it would be to keep them all in sync. Actually, I'd want the option to change between four separate monos and stacking up the voices. I guess with the midi implementation it is all do-able.

This is interesting, not what I was expecting. Thought it would have more of a DM12 treatment. For me it will depend on the "sound". I already have a Slim Phatty which I am happy with. It has some additional features like an arpeggiator.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #742
Gear Head
 
Springuy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
This is a first draft of our "D" Synth with a proposed feature set below.

Our goal is to design in a Poly Chain feature that allows combining up to 16 synths through Midi.

Depending on the feedback we will then decide if we move further and build a first prototype.

Our targeted retail price is around US$ 400.

Analog Synthesizer with 3 VCOs, 24 dB Ladder Filter, LFO, 16-Voice Poly Chain and Eurorack Format

1. Analog synthesizer with triple VCO design
2. Reproduction of original “D Type” with matched transistors and JFETs
3. 0.1% Thin Film resistors and Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors for frequency stability
4. Analog signal path based on authentic VCO, VCF and VCA designs
5. 5 variable oscillator shapes with pulse width variation
6. Classic 24 dB ladder filter with resonance
7. Fully analog triangle/square wave LFO
8. Switchable low/high pass filter mode
9. 16-voice Midi Poly Chain allows combining multiple synthesizers for up to 16-voice polyphony
10. Overdrive circuit
11. Noise generator
12. Complete Eurorack solution – main module can be transferred to a standard Eurorack case
13. 46 controls for real-time access of all important parameters
14. External audio input for processing external sound sources
15. Low and high level outputs
16. Comprehensive MIDI implementation with MIDI channel and Voice Priority selection
17. 3-Year Warranty Program

Uli
Nice, if it's too far from the real Minimoog D sound, I will buy one...
If it's close to it ("greasy" enough, for a minimoog it's a closer term than fat) then I will buy 2, 3 or more :-)

Although it's great that it's Eurorack compatible maybe Behringer should think about doing their Eurorack compatible keyboard like Waldorf did (did well but quite expensive)
Old 9th March 2017
  #743
373097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
The Slim Phatty had plenty of lights but still looked great IMO, particularly when arranged in a polyphonic tower of sci-fi equipment:
I really like the buttons on the Slim Phatty, when active they light up. Very visual, especially when calling up different presets. Also, the value indicators around the knobs are extremely nice.
Old 9th March 2017
  #744
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autoy's Avatar
I like the no-presets/no-menus approach, keeps the fun of a simple monosynth and lowers the price. However if analog controls are gonna be digitised for MIDI control it's a bit weird there's no preset recall at least from a computer editor. If the controls send MIDI though, they need to be NRPN 14-bit like modern Moogs for smooth operation, no shortcuts there. The key will be the sound, no doubt. I'm currently very happy with my Slim Phatty for Moog tone, I don't see myself selling it for a clone.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #745
Gear Head
 
Springuy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayersweb View Post
Being able to save presets, even if only available via a software "editor" or a VST plug-in would be very useful. I like to switch between projects often, and would appreciate patch recall. This would be make or break for me.

For me it will depend on the "sound". I already have a Slim Phatty which I am happy with. It has some additional features like an arpeggiator.
I am afraid that the ability to save presets even via MIDI only would double the price tag (unless the encoders are already DACed but reading the specs and seeing the price expected, I doubt it)

An arpeggiator would be nice yes, but also add to the price tag and Behringer would have to change the front pânel accordingly, so ...

I agree the sound will be the most important factor there.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #746
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
You don't like the buttons on your Deepmind?

The Slim Phatty had plenty of lights but still looked great IMO, particularly when arranged in a polyphonic tower of sci-fi equipment:
back lit buttons like on the Deepmind are very non offensive, the colour is great and not bright, with a synth like this you don't need any of that feedback as it's all knobs and rocker switches, proper old school feedback, I love it, my mind flows with these kinds of interfaces..
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Old 9th March 2017
  #747
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BassX's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobJB06 View Post
I totally disapprove of what your doing here.... just copying other companies
What nonsense. All subtractive synths are copies then because they have all the same VCO VCF VCA layout.
Making something accessible and affordable instead of overpriced elite products is not copying, it's even social.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #748
Quote:
Originally Posted by autoy View Post
If the controls send MIDI though, they need to be NRPN 14-bit like modern Moogs for smooth operation, no shortcuts there. .....
I would be very surprised if this in the 400 bucks synth.
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Old 9th March 2017
  #749
373097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springuy View Post
I am afraid that the ability to save presets even via MIDI only would double the price tag (unless the encoders are already DACed but reading the specs and seeing the price expected, I doubt it)

An arpeggiator would be nice yes, but also add to the price tag and Behringer would have to change the front pânel accordingly, so ...

I agree the sound will be the most important factor there.
Actually, how could you chain 4 of these together and have them sound the same without the ability to send all values to each? You would need to adjust every single control on the master to get the slaves to line up.

Yes, I was not asking for an arp, just mentioning that the Slim (that I already have) has some additional features.

Why the low/high main outputs? Is it line level vs instrument level or something like that?
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Old 9th March 2017
  #750
Gear Addict
 

I fail to see why a 1:1 clone of the Moog is really a good idea.....After releasing the DM-12 (without a word of a desktop version lately) you would expect something more than just a clone. If you have to do a Model D, why not go to town and make it a bigger and more advanced version on steroids?
Personally I would much rather see an updated version of the Alesis A6 or a polyphonic mega version of the Voyager, especially if there were rack/desktop versions available
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