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Behringer Analog Drum Machine
Old 31st October 2016
  #511
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel G. View Post
the drum brute has individual outs (which is better than onboard effects and just a pair of L/R outs if you ask me)
Every normal drum machine has individual outputs. It's not a subject. I'd like to pan my hats and toms - and it's 2016.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmanuel G. View Post
or something with sampling and analog voices, why not, but again, we might have a pricing issue here. If the drumbrute is as good as it seems, it'll be hard to do better for the same price point, even for behringer.
can it be done? yes probably.
No need to go that far.
Good sound, stereo bus, on-board fx, patch recall, midi control would already make it. And clearly Behringer can do it for the same money or cheaper.
No I don't share skepticism.

And experimental drum machines are totally different market that I don't want to get back since I've sold my Elektron.

Last edited by redloheb; 31st October 2016 at 08:56 PM..
Old 31st October 2016
  #512
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Every normal drum machine has individual outputs. It's not a subject. I'd like to pan my hats and toms - and it's 2016.


No need to go that far.
Good sound, stereo bus, on-board fx, patch recall, midi control would already make it. And clearly Behringer can do it for the same money or cheaper.
No I don't share skepticism.

And experimental drum machines - it's totally different market - I've sold my Elektron.
Every normal drum machine *above a certain price point* has individual outs. And fortunately for everyone, that price point was just recently lowered by arturia, because it wasnt that low before. more like double

patch recall alone is huge cost increase when dealing with analog. How many analog drum machines currently have patch recall? and how much are they?
Old 31st October 2016
  #513
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
Every normal drum machine *above a certain price point* has individual outs. And fortunately for everyone, that price point was just recently lowered by arturia, because it wasnt that low before. more like double
Wrong. I had MFB 522 in past - it cost half of DrumBrute and had individual outs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
patch recall alone is huge cost increase when dealing with analog.
Digitally controlled analog has patch recall by default and cheaper than pure analog because lot of aux parts are loaded to CPU. Brute looks and sounds like blend ofseveral minbrutes + beatstep - that's why it doesn't have digital voice controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
How many analog drum machines currently have patch recall? and how much are they?
This question is quite irrelevant in age of technology. How many new analog polys for $500 before 2016?
Old 31st October 2016
  #514
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Wrong. I had MFB 522 in past - it cost half of DrumBrute and had individual outs.
It also was the size of a pack of smokes and had the build quality of a toilet paper hut in the rain. AND was not mass distributed.. so you can't really set the bar on a outlier like the 522..

Quote:
Digitally controlled analog has patch recall by default and cheaper than pure analog because lot of aux parts are loaded to CPU. Brute looks and sounds like blend ofseveral minbrutes + beatstep - that's why it doesn't have digital voice controls.
Patch recall is never default or it would be everywhere... Brute defininetly is 1 part analog voices and 1 part beatstep with a dash of improvements on the performance aspect.


Quote:
This question is quite irrelevant in age of technology. How many new analog polys for $500 before 2016?
The fact that it should be irrelevant BUT is not, is my point. Patch recall on analog drum machines is not common, even though we have had the technology since the first patch storage on synths was introduced. And yet, how many have it? Hardly any at all
Old 31st October 2016
  #515
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
The fact that it should be irrelevant BUT is not, is my point. Patch recall on analog drum machines is not common, even though we have had the technology since the first patch storage on synths was introduced. And yet, how many have it? Hardly any at all
True, but to be fair, the vast amount of drum machines and groveboxes that have come out have been digital in nature. Analog drum machines themselves are just not that common.

I think Elektron got it right with RYTM, though I'm not a fan of the Elektron way of doing things. Here's where I think Korg gets it right. My old sample based red Electribe was great for ease of use. If Behringer could take what's nice about the RYTM and make it a more fun experience (I personally like the Akai style more than x0x style of sequencing) and do it at a great price, I'd be all in.
Old 31st October 2016
  #516
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
True, but to be fair, the vast amount of drum machines and groveboxes that have come out have been digital in nature. Analog drum machines themselves are just not that common.

I think Elektron got it right with RYTM, though I'm not a fan of the Elektron way of doing things. Here's where I think Korg gets it right. My old sample based red Electribe was great for ease of use. If Behringer could take what's nice about the RYTM and make it a more fun experience (I personally like the Akai style more than x0x style of sequencing) and do it at a great price, I'd be all in.
I couldn't agree more
Elektron has the features, but I don't like the workflow.
I used to jam on an electribe em-1 and it was just too easy to lose a few hours jamming. It never felt like work
Old 31st October 2016
  #517
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
It also was the size of a pack of smokes and had the build quality of a toilet paper hut in the rain. AND was not mass distributed.. so you can't really set the bar on a outlier like the 522..
But in real life it was well built clone of 808 with amazing sound and you probably never owned one. Anyway bar was already set before and all this lovely words doesn't change that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
The fact that it should be irrelevant BUT is not, is my point. Patch recall on analog drum machines is not common, even though we have had the technology since the first patch storage on synths was introduced. And yet, how many have it? Hardly any at all
From top of the head: Analog Rytm that has patch, kit, sequence and performance recall.
Korg Electribes of various kinds.

If something was not common yesterday it doesn't mean it's unnecessary or wouldn't be common tomorrow. Modern drum machine as well as modern synth should have ability to get back to previous work/sound.
Old 31st October 2016
  #518
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
But in real life it was well built clone of 808 with amazing sound and you probably never owned one. Anyway bar was already set before and all this lovely words doesn't change that fact.
I am the first to say that it sounds amazing. An aquantance had one (and it worked for about 6 months) and it was top notch in the audio department. By that notion though, I guess a modded volca beats would set the price bar even lower eh

Quote:

From top of the head: Analog Rytm that has patch, kit, sequence and performance recall.
If something was not common yesterday it doesn't mean it's unnecessary or wouldn't be common tomorrow. Modern drum machine as well as modern synth should have ability to get back to previous work/sound.
I feel that it is absolutely necessary, that's why I still have a drumstation on the rack. We are on the same page though: Modern drum machine as well as modern synth should absolutly have ability to get back to previous work/sound. I hope the analog boom of the last few years will finally start to incorporate and utilize the technology that the digital era perfected.

Hopefully the behringer development meeting goes like this:
Step 1: analog
Step 2: kit recall
Step 3: ...
Step 4: profit

A single company/startup could probably build an empire on cloning analogue drum machines with digital recall. But like the rytm and tempest, they wont be in the 250-500 range... and that is where it seems most companies are leaning towards with only a few exceptions. I think our market is just not that big
Old 31st October 2016
  #519
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
A single company/startup could probably build an empire on cloning analogue drum machines with digital recall. But like the rytm and tempest, they wont be in the 250-500 range... and that is where it seems most companies are leaning towards with only a few exceptions. I think our market is just not that big
$500 is good price range of digitally-controlled analog drum machine - it would have less components and smaller size than minilogue. I think it's very reachable target.
Old 31st October 2016
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
A single company/startup could probably build an empire on cloning analogue drum machines with digital recall. But like the rytm and tempest, they wont be in the 250-500 range... and that is where it seems most companies are leaning towards with only a few exceptions. I think our market is just not that big
Yeah cause when you dial in that perfect 808 kick sound you definitely want to save it or else you'll never get those two knobs back to the same positions again.
Old 31st October 2016
  #521
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by oche ecaps View Post
Yeah cause when you dial in that perfect 808 kick sound you definitely want to save it or else you'll never get those two knobs back to the same positions again.
Ha!, true, but mod sequencing those tiny knobs would be amazing.. if only there were pitch control lol hell I'd settle for an lfo per voice! But on a 909 eh?
Old 1st November 2016
  #522
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
Ha!, true, but mod sequencing those tiny knobs would be amazing..
When you record that one sound at a time to audio while the midi sequence is playing you just move around the knobs to do your automation the old fashioned way, and do a couple takes/passes. While digital control is cool cheap analog that doesn't have it is too. Also digitally controlled knobs usually make step during sweeps unless very expensive that's why the cutoff on the Volca Bass doesn't have digital control.
Old 1st November 2016
  #523
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarfishMusic View Post
Also digitally controlled knobs usually make step during sweeps unless very expensive that's why the cutoff on the Volca Bass doesn't have digital control.
ah, 14bit with good interpolation resolves to inaudible stepping. Probably not worth the effort to implement in something like the volca bass.. but I think moog uses this technology.
Old 1st November 2016
  #524
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
A one box desktop solution.
Wouldn't mind it being all digital.
Basically, doesn't have to be analog, as long as it sounds good and is fun to program and play.
Best drum computers are the ones that have easy access, allow for fast workflows and make live playing fun.
A hardware sampler and sample player type of machine, with dedicated performance controls such as sample start and end points which work in real time.
xox grid step input.
Freely drawable/multipoint/spline envelopes. Universal slots and sound generators - every slot can use every sound generator.
Make it more like a synth, where I can make a kick out of any oscillator shape, choose how many oscillators will make the sound, can specify different envelopes for different parts of the sound.
The purpose of this little piece is threefold:
a) As another reference set of capabilities others may find useful when compiling their 'wish-list'
b) To provide a little insight into the approach taken by a humble developer of a 'sample-synth-effects-X0X sequencer'
c) What I personally would value in a hardware unit

Back in the day, I loved Hammerhead - a X0X drum sequencer app, for its simplicity, ease of use and fun factor but it was extremely limited in the per-sound synthesis department and it was a pain to load and use one's own samples.
I also liked Stomper - which was (and still is) a good synthesizer for percussion sounds and effects (Zap professed the Somper kick to be 'fatter, deeper and heavier than any 909 sample' and that it 'faithfully reproduces 808s, Simmons and more' and there's even a testimonial with the claim 'we hardly use the real 909 anymore' ), but it had no sequencer (Ensoniq subsequently incoprorated it in the ASR-X Pro).
So I thought wouldn't be great if Stomper-like synthesis capability was available on every channel of Hammerhead, with the ability to easily load samples in every channel, combine the synthesis with the samples and pass the result through an array of effects - again, independently on each channel. With more channels and greater step resolution than Hammerhead. And all for free. So I developed Flexibeatz. As I experimented and learnt, the more I incorporated into the product and it just kept evolving - I think this is a natural thing to want to do as a developer. I ended up with this:

X0X sequencer:
-Number of channels: 10
-Note resolution: 32nds
-Max measures: 999
-Mute, Solo, Accent, Swing
-Sync to internal or external clock
-Dynamically alter start and end point of each sound in each channel
-Dynamically specify which sounds can cut-off (mute) which other sounds
-Dynmaically change level, pan, and frequency-length of each sound in each channel
-Randomize sample assignment from a directory into current or all channels
-Randomize notes selection in current measure in current channel
-'Auto Stretch’ samples to fit a specified fraction of a measure, or multiple measures
-Chop a loop into individual hits and open them up in separate channels
-Auto-generate arpeggiator patterns

Synthesis:
-Synthesize sounds from scratch in each channel (two oscillators per channel which can be set to internally-generated waveforms with variable waveshapes)
-Freely draw and apply a pitch envelope, a LP, HP or BP filter envelope and a volume envelope to each oscillator
-Combine the synthesized sounds with samples in each channel - Add, FM etc

Effects available on every channel:
-Reverse
-3 types of Distortion
-Chorus
-Delay
-Compression
-Change amplitude of positive and negative halves of the waveform independently
-Reverb
-Master LP Filter
-Lo-Fi (bit and sampling rate reduction)
-3-band Parametric EQ (featuring LP, HP, BP, Lo Shelf, Hi Shelf, Notch, Peak)
-Stutter effect
-Chop up and randomly reassemble a sample
-Apply wave-shaping by manipulating harmonics (Chebychev wave-shaper)
-Change pitch without changing duration, and vice-versa
-Waveform display in both the time and frequency domain

Available on the first channel only:
-Vocoder (sound in the first channel is modulator and carrier is either a synthesized tone or sound in the second channel)
-Ring Modulator
-AutoWah (envelope following filter)

The manual is here:http://flexibeatz.weebly.com/uploads...atzii_help.pdf

It does not have motion sequencing and cannot sequence different variations of the same sample without them being in a separate channel (so, it could have done nicely with more than 10 channels). But even within these constraints, I have found that the various randomizer features for example enables the machine to come up with sound combinations, patterns and song ideas I would not have consciously produced, and is still what I turn to when I want to quickly create a tune or demo sequences of synthesis techniques I invent. Tracks produced with it are on my Youtube channel (some done with no samples at all).
Yes, as a result of having thrown everything and the kitchen sink at it, there's features here I find I don't use as much, but that's to be expected. Sometimes I purposely try to 'do something' with those, just because they are there. Unfortunately, it doesn't run on any Windows OS newer than Vista because of the major changes MS made to the DirectSound API and that's when I saw the take-up of the app plummet.

I'd be partial to a hardware version of this which extends it further (I confess to the obvious bias ):

a) X0X sequencing with thought-out accessibility and immediacy of controls so one can get going with it quickly. Should be able to just dump a pile of samples into it, and easily assign any to any channel
b) Has motion sequencing and a variety of on-the-fly tools which inspire creativity and experimentation when jamming. It should 'do weird well'
c) Has plenty of synthesis and sample editing power per channel 'under the hood', if/when it is needed. One does not HAVE to use the multiple outs, as there is sufficient internal capability to create, arrange and mix 'a complete song' on it
d) If it incorporates an analog synth, do not do so for the sake of it - do so because the value proposition is sonically evident - it could be the organic nature of each hit for example, or the definition or weight of the sound - but it needs to be something!
Old 1st November 2016
  #525
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time_zone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Wrong. I had MFB 522 in past - it cost half of DrumBrute and had individual outs.
I agree, the Roland TR 626 is another example.

Old 1st November 2016
  #526
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ranzee's Avatar
So where are Behringer @ with this idea?
Old 1st November 2016
  #527
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Ercole's Avatar
Dear Uli

Analog drum machine ? Great ! But what's missing on the market is a sampler with analog filters, a dss1 with knobs if you please, or a deepmind with sampling options... 8 voices polyphony... Outputs at least 4... Fx why not... Unpricey...

Thanx in advance...
Old 2nd November 2016
  #528
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Uli,
this is a great idea. How often do manufacturers ask real customers what they want from a product? Well, I guess it's rare.
Now actually I don't often use drum machines, so my opinions on this product won't count for much, but I do know about marketing (having worked in or owned several prominent advertising, design or marketing agencies), and I hope you get sensible feedback that helps you with your product specification.
Very good luck with it, and keep asking your customers questions - that way you will stay on top!
Old 2nd November 2016
  #529
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone View Post
I agree, the Roland TR 626 is another example.
Good point!
Old 2nd November 2016
  #530
Here for the gear
 

Hi Uli,

Well done on the DeepMind 12, I am looking forward to it arriving here in New Zealand! It's great that you have reached out to us all in synth-land to get our thoughts, it's better to read our expectations before rather than after I'm sure!

I agree, with most, that another Roland 808/909 revision would be unnecessary with so many attempting to get the sound or functionality right and falling short of the originals. An exact replica would be the only way to go for those units.

Most of us are burnt out on 808/909 imposters though. For people like me who make electronic-funk, I use my collection of sample-based analogs like Linndrum SCI Drumtraks and Oberheim DMX. Lately I've been messing around with my Yamaha RX7 and Kawai R100 for some crunchy digital sounds too. No one has properly revisited any of these in hardware format that I've seen/heard.

Analog is dope, but I haven't heard anything better than an 808 or 909. Unless you can out do an 808 or 909 for SOUND, you'd be best to have a plan B.

Thanks for inviting us to share in this process, all the best.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #531
Lives for gear
Features i would love to see:

- no step buttons, only big pads

i hink the nord drum 3 is interesting, but it sounds a bid cold and it has no sequencer. A machine that forces you to rely on your ears and that also can be used by percussionists and drummers would be so much more creative.
The pads could also be used for x/y/z style modulation

- a groove analyzer would also be great, so it could "listen" to any drummer
via a microphone and adopt his groove. Something like Kemper, but for grooves

- intelligent ghost notes that can be dialed in

- the random possibilities on the Arturia drumbrute are super, but if rolls could be humanized and if there was also a negative randomization to take notes out for breaks, it would also be very handy.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #532
Here for the gear
Mm i Think "we need" some drum machine like this:
1: sounds good stand alone without external process.

2: "we have" a looot of 808 909 samples, clones, etc. yes we love the 808 & 909 sound because always they match perfect into the mix!!! but.. hey we are on 2016 !!!! maybe we need more synthesis options to sculpt a new palette of sounds, i think something like Elektron Rytm and MFB Tanzbär an Akai MPC 1000, but with something more? mmm step sequencer its okay, usb its okay, the display to navigate 2016 style, may be we need a drum machine for live performance, with big MIDI specs to achieve one live show of electronic music ONLY with this machine connected to one or more sound modules/synths

PD: Uli thanks for giving us participation and listen to our dreams
Old 3rd November 2016
  #533
Gear Head
 
Tempertemper's Avatar
 

Anything other than more 808 and 909 sounds. Give it the capability for the user to tweak the machine to get that sound, but please let the machine have its own unique sound. Also make it be able to process external sounds and maybe take a snapshot of said process and manipulate it?
Old 3rd November 2016
  #534
My dream drum machine is basically an MPC3000 with the addition of an x0x style sequencer, onboard analog polysynth, and DAW-like cycle record modes (e.g. keep last) for audio and MIDI.

Interface - See Yamaha Montage. There is a tradeoff between knob per function ease of use (e.g. 808) and full synth complexity (Tempest). Abstract multiple parameters to give easy drum relevant parameters per knob (e.g. single knob for "snap" controls multiple DM12 params under the hood). Allow full access to DM12 architecture via menu.

Voice structure - analog voice should include digital oscillators and sampling from analog inputs. External sampling opens up possibility for audio tracks, resampling, loop reprocessing, etc.

Sequencer - all the recent drum machines (with the exception of Tempest) are missing proper MPC style sequencing in addition to the obligatory x0x style. And none of them are capable of serving as the hub of a MIDI studio like MPCs were.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #535
What I would like in a new drum machine.

What I would like and as far as I can tell nobody makes is a professional or semi level drum controller made for finger drumming technique. The problem I'm having with current models is; there is often no mount to securely attach it to something, there are other buttons or sliders that are too close to the drum pads that get accidentally hit, and there is no easy way to add kick/high hat pedals. The keyboard mounted drum pads are fine for tapping in or fixing a small drum part but not much more than that.

Two 8x8 drum pads would be good with space between them and all the controls mounted cleanly out of the way plus some kind of positive lock on that damn USB connector. Batteries and wireless would work as the extra weight of the batteries would be a good thing.

I use a DAW for my samples so I don't need any built in sounds, anyway more analog audio connectors and the need for a mixer is what I got away from.

Thanks,
-Brian
Old 3rd November 2016
  #536
Lives for gear
No samples please. Totally analaogue using wave forms only. Simple 4 bar grid interface for programming. Selection of wave form patterns for each voice. Control over attack, release, sustain, overdrive, bass boost, treble boost, etc etc. individual outputs and inputs for drum triggers for each voice. No digital fx.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #537
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dirtROBOT's Avatar
It's going to be an 808 clone with the fx section from the deepmind.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #538
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gregor z's Avatar
 

8 channels of Syncussion like drum synth that can also do classic analog drum machines. Tonally playable by midi. Separate outs and trigger inputs.
Old 3rd November 2016
  #539
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Hokut's Avatar
 

maybe we scared @Uli Behringer away with our crazy needs , he may never step foot into this thread again
Old 3rd November 2016
  #540
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DiGi_TaL's Avatar
 

I vote for RYTM style drum machine, with more sampling capabilities.
Having a possibility to route the drums separately on DAW is a must as I see it today (but the right way is Ovebrirge/Virus TI style and not Roland weird implementation)
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