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Behringer DeepMind 12 Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 26th July 2016
  #1501
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
Am I the only one who thinks motorized faders are an unnecessary feature? I mean I'd hate for some gimmick like that to factor into the price.
They are probably cheaper than 3 sets of normal faders and space for it on the front panel. 3 sets? Yes, 3 buttons below the Env section..
Old 26th July 2016
  #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
But then other would argue that back in the day when the Juno 60 was released Roland kinda WAS like Behringer today. Cheap but feature rich. And people may have asked the same questions. Where did they cut corners? Ah only one Osc and a cheap chorus to make em sound fat...
At the end, what counts is that young ambitous and imaginative spirits are able to afford it and do something extraordinary with it, right?


and i'll take that cheap chorus any day!
Old 26th July 2016
  #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
Fair point! but the Juno 60 cost $4444.66 (in 2016 dollars) and some would argue that parts made back then are more resilient than those made today. That is my only concern about a 'significantly underpriced' synth.
Blind inflation multiplication doesn't give proper answer what does it cost because nobody would buy 512 mb hdd for $150 in 2016. Comparable electronics is approximately 3 times cheaper than in 1983. So Juno 6 price in 2016 is around $400-$500 dollars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
As much as i would like to agree, i am weak and want it anyway
Not weak in my case I'm completely loosing inital "I want it" feeling. Too many teasers and no proper revelations and raw sound demos.
Korg Minilouge has good timeline in campaign, this one went meh.

But it's Behringer and they usually copy with errors ))))))
Old 26th July 2016
  #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Blind inflation multiplication doesn't give proper answer what does it cost because nobody would buy 512 mb hdd for $150 in 2016. Comparable electronics is approximately 3 times cheaper than in 1983. So Juno 6 price in 2016 is around $400-$500 dollars.
While the juno 60 could be classed as 'technology', I think its quite a reach to compare it to actual computer parts that are exponentially improved on a regular basis.. Hell, i wont pay prices from 2 years ago for equivalent hdds or ram..

I'll concede a pure inflation ratio is not absolute, but I'm sure we're closer to comparing apples to apples here otherwise they'd be selling for $250 on ebay..
Old 27th July 2016
  #1505
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Is there a date for the "official" release?
Old 27th July 2016
  #1506
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The more i think about it, the more i think this will have the motorized faders. They already have it with the Motor 49/61 controllers. It wouldn't take much to port that over to the new poly.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1507
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
While the juno 60 could be classed as 'technology', I think its quite a reach to compare it to actual computer parts that are exponentially improved on a regular basis.. Hell, i wont pay prices from 2 years ago for equivalent hdds or ram..
Prices of electronic components is in general going down there are several reasons for that: innovation technology, mass production, competition, moore law, cost reductions, manufacturing relocation. Also there are tow huge factors smt and assebly assistance. If you think about insides of Juno it's they are quite standard except voice chips but that are easy to emulate with generic parts at lower price point. And all components and manufacturing are getting a bit cheaper every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
I'll concede a pure inflation ratio is not absolute, but I'm sure we're closer to comparing apples to apples here otherwise they'd be selling for $250 on ebay..
And they were several years ago. Now they've become rarities/collectibles instead of pieces of technology - that's why they are following patterns of collectibles price change.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
They are probably cheaper than 3 sets of normal faders and space for it on the front panel. 3 sets? Yes, 3 buttons below the Env section..
Good observation!

That pretty much means it has to have motorised faders.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esla View Post
Is there a date for the "official" release?
Not yet.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muziksculp View Post
And must be totally silent. Which is not always the case with motorized faders, especially if keeping cost low is a must.

Actually, are there any Synths that have motorized faders ? I can't think of a single one.

So, I kind of doubt these are motorized faders, but if they are, they must be very responsive, and super quiet, plus be very durable to withstand years of fader tweaks.

Hopefully there won't be motorized faders on this synth! It would really right away turn me off buying it, in my experience motorized faders only really seem to do their job properly on the more expensive products (mainly mixing consoles). I can't see how you can get really top quality quiet ones fitted in a synth without bumping the price sufficiently.

To be honest I don't know why anyone would actually want them anyway? It's not like we didn't enjoy our synths and made some kick ass sounds on them over the years?
Old 27th July 2016
  #1511
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JemenJ's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
I've heard Behringer have good buying power and production means, but where do you cut the costs?? crappy keybed? cheaper sliders? casing fabrication?

I like the way this poly is sounding and would rather pay more for the best iteration it can be. Hopefully, we are not so much shocked by how low the sticker price is, but by how good the build quality is
What if other manufacturers are overpricing their products?
As much as I love DSI synths I'll find it hard to believe that 6-voice VCO-poly synth is really worth 3k€...
Old 27th July 2016
  #1512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigment View Post
Fair point! but the Juno 60 cost $4444.66 (in 2016 dollars) and some would argue that parts made back then are more resilient than those made today. That is my only concern about a 'significantly underpriced' synth.

I've heard Behringer have good buying power and production means, but where do you cut the costs?? crappy keybed? cheaper sliders? casing fabrication?

I like the way this poly is sounding and would rather pay more for the best iteration it can be. Hopefully, we are not so much shocked by how low the sticker price is, but by how good the build quality is
People often ask about the prices so Behringer has an already written answer for that. I'll go ahead and quote it here since I expect Mr Behringer himself would do the same. He's been using it for years, here's a version he posted on Gearslutz last year:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Dear Glenn,

Thank you for your kind words.

Your assumption above is a very widespread misconception as people believe that a low price equals mediocre quality.
Nothing could be further from the truth and please allow me to re-post a response I published on www.soundforums.net some time ago.

How is Behringer able to offer such low prices?

Frankly, this is THE most asked question in the 25 years since I started the company.

This is such an important question because there is a lingering perception that we must somehow be cutting corners to reduce cost. I have seen people claim that we must be using poor quality parts, not following quality control processes or somehow designing in obsolescence.

While I can tell you that this is absolutely not the case, it may be best if I offer some insights into our business model to explain.

There are four fundamental elements that comprise the selling price of our products; materials, labor, overhead and profit.

Achieving low prices and delivering great value for our customers requires great discipline and hard work in each of these areas. It is my responsibility as the CEO to set the pace and ensure that we reduce costs while always increasing quality; because without quality, we cannot maintain low costs.

We reduce the cost of raw materials in two ways:
First, we buy direct from manufacturers and not through a second source, distributor or contract manufacturer.
Second, we buy in enormous quantities and leverage this volume in negotiating lower prices.

Of course owning the factory where we build our products allows us to cut out at least 30% of the margin demanded by contract manufacturers who are supplying some of our competitors.

Consider that we buy our A/D and D/A converters from Cirrus Logic; the same parts (CS5368 and CS4385) that you will find in a $200k console; we encourage anyone interested to look further into this. We have also been told that we are the single largest Cirrus Logic customer behind only Apple!

You will find similar examples with Analog Devices, makers of the SHARC DSPs that we use or Mabuchi, who make the motors for our motor-faders (and those of Penny & Giles, Alps, etc.) and the list goes on. We are buying the very best parts, from the very best manufacturers, direct and in huge quantities.

That means we pay the lowest possible prices.

Likewise we have two major ways in which we reduce the cost of labor to build our products. First, we own the factory and this means we are paying workers directly and not through a third party that is making a markup.

Again, this results in up to 30% savings. Second, we have invested in massive amount of automation to a far greater extent than many in China in order to reduce cost while increasing quality.

This past year for example we converted the placement of electrolytic capacitors and other through-hole components from hand-insertion to full automation.
Each of the machines that now place e-caps in rapid-fire succession cost over $500k US so the savings in cost will take some time to be realized.

But we have seen an immediate improvement in first-pass yield by eliminating the chance of human error, and that is both improving quality and reducing the cost of re-work.

We run our company with a very low overhead relative to some competitors, and we do this not by cutting corners but rather by working smarter.

First off we invest heavily in systems that improve productivity and reduce redundancy. For example our engineering management software Agile talks to our website content management system so when we enter a product’s specifications we do it once and it is automatically replicated across several departments and is immediately posted to the web. Or take our service manuals which are created automatically, in real-time and with the very latest schematics, parts lists and engineering changes - all available through an on-line portal.

Another way we reduce overhead is by re-investing profits in our company to purchase machinery, land and buildings. For example we have purchased new buildings in Manchester, UK and Las Vegas, USA in the past year. We have also purchased land and we are building a $50 million state-of-the-art campus to contain a new factory, research center, logistics hub and residential village in China. These investments not only give us greater control over quality and production but they also reduce our operating costs over the long term.

Finally it is important to know that we operate on what would be considered to be a slim margin by industry standards. While some manufacturers price their products according to what they think the market will accept, we do it very differently.

We calculate our costs and add a fair markup that will allow us to continue to grow our business and nothing more. Again, we have all seen strategies where manufacturers release new products at high prices only to reduce them as other competitors come into the market. We prefer to offer a fair price from the beginning and not play such games.

The reality of our company is that we are a highly efficient organization of 4,000 people including over 400 engineers and in-house manufacturing. We build up to 5 million products a year and consequently buy parts at the lowest possible cost.

Since I started the company 25 years ago, it has been our philosophy to pass on savings to the customer and this will always be our philosophy.
Offering excellent products at affordable prices has gained us millions of loyal customers who in return reward us by buying our products.

Yes, we are a very different kind of company, we want to be different and I am immensely proud of our team.

Warm regards

Uli
Old 27th July 2016
  #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JemenJ View Post
What if other manufacturers are overpricing their products?
As much as I love DSI synths I'll find it hard to believe that 6-voice VCO-poly synth is really worth 3k€...
Its not,. Your paying for the name more than anything
Old 27th July 2016
  #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Morley View Post
Hopefully there won't be motorized faders on this synth! It would really right away turn me off buying it, in my experience motorized faders only really seem to do their job properly on the more expensive products (mainly mixing consoles). I can't see how you can get really top quality quiet ones fitted in a synth without bumping the price sufficiently.
Behringer own Midas, and make their own motorised faders for their mixers and control surfaces already. After selling 500,000 X32 mixers, they probably have a handle on motorised fader tech.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Morley View Post
To be honest I don't know why anyone would actually want them anyway? It's not like we didn't enjoy our synths and made some kick ass sounds on them over the years?
When you have one set of sliders controlling multiple functions, such as the single set of envelope sliders mentioned above, which look like they can be switched to the different functions using the buttons below those sliders, it would be useful to immediately show you the settings of the sliders for those different destinations as you switch through them.

Also when changing patches, so that the control panel is immediately updated with the sliders at their correct settings for each patch.


To be honest I don't know why anyone wouldn't actually want them anyway, other than concerns over noise and reliability/lifespan.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Blind inflation multiplication doesn't give proper answer what does it cost because nobody would buy 512 mb hdd for $150 in 2016. Comparable electronics is approximately 3 times cheaper than in 1983. So Juno 6 price in 2016 is around $400-$500 dollars.
Assuming you don't want a reasonable keyboard or body on it.

Pete
Old 27th July 2016
  #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t-bone View Post
Its not,. Your paying for the name more than anything
You are also paying the costs of running a business outputting a much smaller volume of product, as highlighted above in the repost from Uli.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by t-bone View Post
The more i think about it, the more i think this will have the motorized faders. They already have it with the Motor 49/61 controllers. It wouldn't take much to port that over to the new poly.
TBH, I think this is one of the more insane predictions in this thread.

If this thing ends up with motorized pots/sliders, I'll eat a shoe.

Pete
Old 27th July 2016
  #1518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JemenJ View Post
What if other manufacturers are overpricing their products?
As much as I love DSI synths I'll find it hard to believe that 6-voice VCO-poly synth is really worth 3k€...
Depends, its not only about cost. DSI sure tries to maximize its profit in each unit because they sell few units. But given the size of the company I doubt they could survive offering cheap products with low margins, the additional units sold may not compansate for increased support costs and expanded manufacturing capacity.

The analog synth market is a Niche market after all, Korg and Behringer can offer products at low margins because they sell a lot of other products and they manufacture in China. Other companies as DSI, Moog and elektron only sell synths.

Personally I think the P08 was great bang for the buck feature was, 8 voices, 61 keys, bitimbral, mod matrix, sequencer. The new P6 and OB6 lost all the features, 2 voices and are more expensive. Maybe Dave found it was more profitable and long term sustainable to offer more expensive products than the cheap affordable analogs of their first years, specially with the tough competition in monos. I think they are not currently producing anything under 1,000 USD.

On the other side companies today have also the chance to reach the whole world, even if they don't have distribution in all countries, that's why the modular synth market has grown so fast. They may not sell alot oversees but a few units in 20-20 countries could add some income previously totally unavaible.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1519
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevism View Post
Pot makes sliders better
yes it does!
Old 27th July 2016
  #1520
You guys get how bulky motorized pots are, right?



Normal



In a synth, there's usually the controls board, the synth logic/voices, and then power. The deeper the control board must be, the less room you have for other things. If the control board is like on a big mixer, and requires a lot of hand work to install because it's not just one big board, cost goes way up.

Plus, think of all that EMF, not to mention cost of the pots themselves.

I would find motorized faders/pots (can't really call it a "fader" IMO) on a synth to be, frankly, a silly gimmick. I'm surprised at how many people here are thinking they might have them because Behringer also does mixers and controllers with that tech.

And here. I'll save you all the trouble



Pete
Old 27th July 2016
  #1521
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The screen is going to be full color and touch.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
You guys get how bulky motorized pots are, right?



Normal

X32 fader...
Old 27th July 2016
  #1523
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Assuming you don't want a reasonable keyboard or body on it.

Pete
But original Juno keyboard is not reasonable.

Btw body of ML has real wood - there is space to balance - 2-3 oct analog poly with normal keyboard and normal body is very possible.

Last edited by redloheb; 27th July 2016 at 01:59 AM..
Old 27th July 2016
  #1524
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Stevism's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
TBH, I think this is one of the more insane predictions in this thread.

If this thing ends up with motorized pots/sliders, I'll eat a shoe.

Pete
Please make a video of it, with a this synth providing the soundtrack
Old 27th July 2016
  #1525
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JemenJ View Post
What if other manufacturers are overpricing their products?
As much as I love DSI synths I'll find it hard to believe that 6-voice VCO-poly synth is really worth 3k€...
Considering how easy Pro6 prices went from $2700 to $2000 you absolutely right. And it could went down $500 more easily and still feed everybody in the chain.
Old 27th July 2016
  #1526
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This analog seems legit, i'll bite. But actualy, i'm way more intriged now by what they could do going all digital. A true Virus killer. VA, WT, FM, Sample, vocoder, seq, modular, Just throw in processing power to spear. I mean, how much and how powerfull are SHARK chips? ( i'm not an engineer) Im pretty sure that, if they did X32 for that price, that result; they couldone up Access in sound, price, features. Put sampling in that sucker, external ins w x32 pres & processing, digi i/o, Ultranet, wifi ipad aditional surfaces...
Could be a monster
Old 27th July 2016
  #1527
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X32 faders look in shape! Slim as fvck. These guys got resources dude... I still love a good ol no memory synth. Reason why i pleaded Arturia to do the Polybrute just like the MiniBrute, but 5 oct and 6 voice for $999. They could've done it 3 years ago. Now, nah, my mony is on Berry.
"Run Barry. Run!"
Old 27th July 2016
  #1528
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
X32 fader...
Yep. Huge compared to a normal slide pot.

Pete
Old 27th July 2016
  #1529
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

No need for motor driven sliders, all you need is luuv....super knob!
Old 27th July 2016
  #1530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
No need for motor driven sliders, all you need is luuv....super knob!
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