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Behringer DeepMind 12 Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3001
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeebustrain View Post
It's not listed on their website yet (and they have no price). I'm under no obligation to purchase it if I decide to back out, but they basically just put me in line, using my Sweetwater card as a hold (I won't be charged anything until it actually ships).
Thanks
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3002
Gear Nut
 

Definitely interested in the rack! Could not buy the keyboard due to space constraints.


Spoff
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3003
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by autoy View Post
It's really bad at this point, at least in common consumer tech. Degrades easily, starts making false colors within a few years of usage and has ghosting problems. I had a landline wireless phone with this, couldn't read the text on the screen after three years. Probably worst case scenario but today I used a friend's Samsung S7 and it's got these horrible green tints when not looking straight without angles.
Well don't know about that, may be, but I have a a OLED Casio watch that's still tickin in my desk drawer, from,? I don't know, they probably invented it, you Casio
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3004
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knoch View Post
There haven't been so many sliders since Roland's heyday.




I love sliders. It's great that someone's making a decent sized super Juno. The boutiques, great as they sound, are just too small for me.

Got to say, I wasn't expecting this sort of synth from Behringer. That isn't a criticism at all; it looks very well thought out and a hell of a lot of fun. For some reason I imagined a heavy looking Tiesco-style VCO synth with real old school appeal. I'm kind of glad its not at this stage, although some sort of Trident or Jupiter big gun would be great to see further down the road.

Can't wait to see a Batt-man review.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3005
Lives for gear
 
redloheb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Just to be clear, we have not yet decided to progress with this design, as your opinion is important to us.
Uli, it would be nice if there would be physical controls not for 1 envelope but for two. Sometimes it's really annoying on Bass Station 2 that shares similar concept with DM12 - there is one shared set of physical controls for 2 envelopes.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3006
Not the friggin sliders thing again.

If you want your fill of pics of sliders, go back to the Yamaha ReFace thread.

Pete
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3007
Gear Addict
 
Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by That Other Guy View Post
I said this a few pages back. The stopwatch screens got to go. This isn't the 90's. An OLED screen is not expensive. Can't be more than 15 bucks on their end. **** charge us an extra $50 for the synth, but put a proper screen on it. I'm tired of cheap ass looking gear.
Hi "That Other Guy",

thanks for the comment.

Allow me to explain our design and costing process.

When designing a product, one has to always make compromises. It's a constant and tough struggle between adding features versus increasing cost and consequently sales price.

In contrast to most other companies, we calculate the sales price of our products through a "bottom up" process. What does that mean?

Instead of looking at the competition and figuring out what the customer would be willing to pay for a product, we simply calculate our manufacturing cost and add a slim margin on top which we need to run our company and to make future investments in people and infrastructure.
Naturally any cost increase in the "bottom up" approach will subsequently translate into higher cost for the customer. However and here it gets problematic, the higher the sales price ends up, the less accessible the product becomes to customers. This results in lower sales volume and further increases your manufacturing cost. In short, the product becomes even more expensive.

I fully agree that an OLED is a much nicer display, and frankly we were struggling with this decision. But the display is only one of the many design and cost deciding factors.
For example, other companies have decided to chose a simple plastic casing, but we decided to go for a solid and more expensive metal chassis. We also went for an internal switch-mode power supply when others opted for a simple wall-wart version - and the list goes on.

When we embarked on the DeepMind12 journey, the team had only one focus in mind - to achieve the best possible sound, without any compromises. This is why we went for 12 voices and the extensive filter designs.

As I mentioned earlier, we ended up with a discrete design with approximately 4,000 components, which is actually pretty insane when you will see the boards one day. The 12-voice analog board alone is populated with 2,000 components - all on a 6-layer, high-density board.
This is where we didn't compromise at all and hence accepted a much higher cost. To the best of our knowledge we are not aware of any other current synthesizer that has gone to that extreme extent - regardless of price.

The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability built in for you to connect a simple tablet.

While you can fully operate the DeepMind12 without any external device, the tablet option can provide you with a high resolution AND full size view - an experience that is much better than any onboard and small display can provide you with.
Of course I understand and respect that some people do not want to connect any additional device to their synth.

Perhaps this example will give you a little bit of insight, how the DeepMind 12 was developed and how products are designed in general - and like in any other industry.

Uli

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 2nd August 2016 at 11:22 PM..
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3008
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
We are using low speed fans that are very much inaudible.

However thermal buildup of approximately 4,000 components is not trivial and does require air circulation, in particular in order to manage the temperature related parameter drift of analog components.

Uli
I understand your need for fans, but inaudible is something fans definitely are not. I've got lots of synth gear in my studio and not one of them requires a fan. My DAW PC is a high powered Intel i7 CPU and is completely solid state. If I do purchase the DM12 it would be the loudest piece I have. That will be a strong consideration for me. Hopefully not a big deal for most.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3009
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Not the friggin sliders thing again.

If you want your fill of pics of sliders, go back to the Yamaha ReFace thread.

Pete
OB6,
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3010
Lives for gear
 
Arglebargle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by That Other Guy View Post
I said this a few pages back. The stopwatch screens got to go. This isn't the 90's. An OLED screen is not expensive. Can't be more than 15 bucks on their end. **** charge us an extra $50 for the synth, but put a proper screen on it. I'm tired of cheap ass looking gear.
Standard retail markup for a component is x7. Is it worth an extra $100? Especially when you are designed for a tight price point?

Also, me, I will take reliability over other bells and whistles, if it comes to that.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3011
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Hi "That Other Guy",

thanks for the comment.

Allow me to explain our design and costing process.

When designing a product, one has to always make compromises. It's a constant struggle between adding customer value versus increasing cost and with it the sales price.

In contrast to most other companies, we calculate the sales price of our product from the "bottom up". What does that mean?

Instead of looking at the competition and figuring out what the customer would be willing to pay for a product, we simply calculate our manufacturing cost and add a slim margin on top which we need to run our company and to make future investments in people and infrastructure. Naturally any cost increase in the "Bottom Up" approach will subsequently translate into a higher cost for the customer.

I fully agree that an OLED is a much nicer display, and frankly we were struggling with this decision. But the display is only one of many aspects that is part of the design and cost deciding process.
For example, other companies have decided to chose a simple plastic casing, but we decided to go for a solid and more expensive metal chassis. Or we went for an internal switch-mode power supply when others opted for a simple wall-wart version - and the list goes on.

When we embarked on the DeepMind12 journey, the team had only one focus - to achieve the best possible sound, without any compromises. This is why we went for 12 voices and the extensive filter designs.

As I mentioned earlier, we ended up with a discrete design with approximately 4,000 components, which is actually pretty insane when you will see the boards on day. The 12-voice analog board alone is populated with 2,000 components - all on a 6-layer board.
This is where we didn't compromise at all and hence accepted a much higher cost. To the best of our knowledge we are not aware of any other current synthesizer that has gone to that extreme extent - regardless of price.

The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability built in for a tablet to be connected.

While you can operate the DeepMind12 without any external device, the tablet option can provide you with a full resolution AND full size view - an experience that is much better than any onboard and small display can provide you with.
Of course I understand and respect that some people do not want to connect any additional device to their synth.

Perhaps this example will give you a little bit of insight, how the DeepMind 12 was developed and how products are designed in general and in any other industry.

Uli
This I can get! iPad Pro!
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3012
T11
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Hi "That Other Guy",

thanks for the comment.

Allow me to explain our design and costing process.

When designing a product, one has to always make compromises. It's a constant struggle between adding customer value versus increasing cost and with it the sales price.

In contrast to most other companies, we calculate the sales price of our product from the "bottom up". What does that mean?

Instead of looking at the competition and figuring out what the customer would be willing to pay for a product, we simply calculate our manufacturing cost and add a slim margin on top which we need to run our company and to make future investments in people and infrastructure. Naturally any cost increase in the "Bottom Up" approach will subsequently translate into a higher cost for the customer.

I fully agree that an OLED is a much nicer display, and frankly we were struggling with this decision. But the display is only one of many aspects that is part of the design and cost deciding process.
For example, other companies have decided to chose a simple plastic casing, but we decided to go for a solid and more expensive metal chassis. Or we went for an internal switch-mode power supply when others opted for a simple wall-wart version - and the list goes on.

When we embarked on the DeepMind12 journey, the team had only one focus - to achieve the best possible sound, without any compromises. This is why we went for 12 voices and the extensive filter designs.

As I mentioned earlier, we ended up with a discrete design with approximately 4,000 components, which is actually pretty insane when you will see the boards on day. The 12-voice analog board alone is populated with 2,000 components - all on a 6-layer board.
This is where we didn't compromise at all and hence accepted a much higher cost. To the best of our knowledge we are not aware of any other current synthesizer that has gone to that extreme extent - regardless of price.

The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability built in for a tablet to be connected.

While you can operate the DeepMind12 without any external device, the tablet option can provide you with a full resolution AND full size view - an experience that is much better than any onboard and small display can provide you with.
Of course I understand and respect that some people do not want to connect any additional device to their synth.

Perhaps this example will give you a little bit of insight, how the DeepMind 12 was developed and how products are designed in general and in any other industry.

Uli


Excuse me for this newbie question, but would multitimbre, split or layer be possible in a future firmware upgrade?
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3013
Gear Addict
 
Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by That Other Guy View Post
I said this a few pages back. The stopwatch screens got to go. This isn't the 90's. An OLED screen is not expensive. Can't be more than 15 bucks on their end. **** charge us an extra $50 for the synth, but put a proper screen on it. I'm tired of cheap ass looking gear.
Hi "That Other Guy",

thanks for the comment.

Allow me to explain our design and costing process a bit more in detail.

When designing a product, one has to always make compromises. It's a constant and tough struggle between adding features versus increasing cost that leads to a higher sales price.
As the sales price increases, the product becomes less accessible to customers which results in lower sales volume which in return further increases manufacturing cost.

In contrast to most other companies, we calculate the sales price of our products through a "bottom up" approach. What does that mean?

Instead of looking at the competition and figuring out what the customer would be willing to pay for a product, we simply calculate our manufacturing cost and add a slim margin on top which we need to run our company as well as make future investments in people and infrastructure. Naturally any cost increase in the "Bottom Up" approach will subsequently translate into a higher cost for the customer.

I fully agree that an OLED is a much nicer display, and frankly we were struggling with this decision. But the display is only one of many design and cost aspects.

For example, other companies have decided to chose a simple plastic casing, when we decided to go for a solid and more expensive metal chassis. Or we went for an internal switch-mode power supply when others opted for a simple wall-wart version - and the list goes on.

When we embarked on the DeepMind12 journey, the team had only one focus in mind - to achieve the best possible sound, without any compromises. This is why we went for 12 voices and the extensive filter designs.

As I mentioned earlier, we ended up with a discrete design with approximately 4,000 components, which is actually pretty insane when you will see the boards one day. The 12-voice analog board alone is populated with 2,000 components - all on a high-density 6-layer board.
This is where we didn't compromise and hence accepted a much higher cost. To the best of our knowledge there is no other current synthesizer that has gone to that extreme extent - regardless of price.

The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability integrated in order to connect to a tablet etc.

While you can fully operate the DeepMind12 without any external device, the tablet option can provide you with a high resolution AND full size view - an experience that is much better than any onboard and small display can provide you with.
Of course I understand and respect that some people do not want to connect any additional device to their synth.

Perhaps this example will give you a little bit of insight, how the DeepMind 12 was developed and how products are designed in general.

Uli

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 2nd August 2016 at 05:45 AM..
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3014
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Wifi editing, this is great, innovation rules, thank you Uli
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3015
Gear Maniac
 
Nerve Nickels's Avatar
 

Rack
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3016
Lives for gear
 
Hazmatic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedealman View Post
Hopefully not a big deal for most.
Only for those that like to nitpick.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3017
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
The problem with that is that you usually can't track the LFO to the keyboard
With the DM12 it appears that you can though - using note number as a modulation source routed to LFO speed.

We already know that the LFOs are polyphonic, with each DCO pair getting it's own pair of LFOs. So then the only question left is how far into the audio range the LFO's will go.

Perhaps Uil will elaborate if he spots this and has the time.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3018
Gear Nut
 
SynthWizard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability built in to connect to a tablet etc.

Uli
Uli, I hope the wifi signal can by turned completely off as an option? Keeping WIFI RADIATION down when not in use is healthy, especially when you are right in front of the device for hours on end in the studio.. and wifi "always on" has the possibility to create interference with other devices.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3019
Lives for gear
 
WozNYC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazmatic View Post

Only for those that like to nitpick.
Wouldn't that be the majority of people here?
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3020
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SynthWizard View Post
Uli, I hope the wifi signal can by turned completely off as an option? Keeping wifi radiation down when not in use is healthy.
Don't get you head too close to the keybed you'll be alright
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3021
Lives for gear
 
Mr Knoch's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Not the friggin sliders thing again.

If you want your fill of pics of sliders, go back to the Yamaha ReFace thread.

Pete
Sorry, Pete. I'll stop.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3022
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Rob Lowe View Post
Don't get you head too close to the keybed you'll be alright
I guess this relates to that thread from last month where the op is asking if his synthesizers are slowly killing him...
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3023
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Hi "That Other Guy",

thanks for the comment.

Allow me to explain our design and costing process.

When designing a product, one has to always make compromises. It's a constant and tough struggle between adding customer value versus increasing cost and consequently sales price.

In contrast to most other companies, we calculate the sales price of our products through a "bottom up" process. What does that mean?

Instead of looking at the competition and figuring out what the customer would be willing to pay for a product, we simply calculate our manufacturing cost and add a slim margin on top which we need to run our company and to make future investments in people and infrastructure.
Naturally any cost increase in the "Bottom Up" approach will subsequently translate into higher cost for the customer. However and here it gets problematic, the higher the sales price ends up, the less accessible the product becomes to customers. This results in lower sales volume and further increases your manufacturing cost. In short, the product becomes even more expensive.

I fully agree that an OLED is a much nicer display, and frankly we were struggling with this decision. But the display is only one of many aspects of the design and cost deciding factors.
For example, other companies have decided to chose a simple plastic casing, but we decided to go for a solid and more expensive metal chassis. We also went for an internal switch-mode power supply when others opted for a simple wall-wart version - and the list goes on.

When we embarked on the DeepMind12 journey, the team had only one focus in mind - to achieve the best possible sound, without any compromises. This is why we went for 12 voices and the extensive filter designs.

As I mentioned earlier, we ended up with a discrete design with approximately 4,000 components, which is actually pretty insane when you will see the boards one day. The 12-voice analog board alone is populated with 2,000 components - all on a 6-layer, high-density board.
This is where we didn't compromise at all and hence accepted a much higher cost. To the best of our knowledge we are not aware of any other current synthesizer that has gone to that extreme extent - regardless of price.

The reason why we have compromised on the display, is the fact that the DeepMind12 has full Wifi capability built so you can connect a simple tablet.

While you can fully operate the DeepMind12 without any external device, the tablet option can provide you with a full resolution AND full size view - an experience that is much better than any onboard and small display can provide you with.
Of course I understand and respect that some people do not want to connect any additional device to their synth.

Perhaps this example will give you a little bit of insight, how the DeepMind 12 was developed and how products are designed in general - in any other industry.

Uli
Thanks Uli, I'm sure you know what you're doing more than us. I do have an iPad, so I guess it won't matter so much. The OLEDs are nice because the viewing angles tend to be better on them. With traditional Screens you have to be looking at them from the top.

I will buy this synth.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3024
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
This refresh gave me an idea: Behringer's Pro B1 (Proper Ballsy One), an improved and enhanced Minitaur-like desktop bass synth, is an idea I'd support.
Speaking of B1, that video mentioned Uli's first synth, the UB1. Why not just name this one "UB-2," or UB-12?" All classy'n sh!t. "Now with Deep Mind technology!
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3025
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SynthWizard View Post
Just ONE lil problem. Uli is creating AFFORDABLE yet feature packed synths, and OLED is expensive. Same goes for polyphonic aftertouch. Ask Dave Smith for those kinds of goodies; after all, you are paying a megapremium price when you dole out for the DSI branding. Me? I'll give Uli my money because nobody can beat his feature/price ratio.

Besides, it's too late to add hardware features on this. Firmware based stuff only. Wait til you hear the price and availability, very soon.
I disagree. Case in point, the korg minilogue has an awesome OLED display that is also a sweet oscilloscope. Thats a brilliant bit of kit that doesnt break the bank. And it exists in our modern age with an OLED display. Not some ancient crap looking back lit LCD.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3026
Lives for gear
 
Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
I guess this relates to that thread from last month where the op is asking if his synthesizers are slowly killing him...
No just thought it had a flow? Play on words, so to speak
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3027
Quote:
Originally Posted by SynthWizard View Post
... Keeping wifi radiation down when not in use is healthy.
For interference with other devices, yes. But if you mean "healthy" as in biological health, you've fallen for some woo that simply isn't backed up by any evidence, and has actually been disproven a number of times.

WiFi radiation has no measurable impact on your physiological health.

Now, back to sliders.

Pete
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3028
Lives for gear
 
WozNYC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post

Just to be clear, we have not yet decided to progress with this design, as your opinion is important to us.
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3029
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Can we have the price & approx release date now please...? some of us have families and lives to plan and don't have time for all this childish waiting teaser games etc..
Old 2nd August 2016
  #3030
Lives for gear
 
Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
For interference with other devices, yes. But if you mean "healthy" as in biological health, you've fallen for some woo that simply isn't backed up by any evidence, and has actually been disproven a number of times.

WiFi radiation has no measurable impact on your physiological health.
Now, back to sliders.
Pete
Usage of DeepMind12 requires a tinfoil hat else Uli the conspirator might listen to your crappy sounds!


Now we all know WHY Uli chosen that weird product name!
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