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Minikeys or Fullsize keys. What say you?
View Poll Results: Minikeys or Fullsized keys. What say you?
(1) Minikeys
21 Votes - 13.55%
(2) Fullsized keys
134 Votes - 86.45%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

Old 25th March 2020
  #121
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Synthpark's Avatar
Allways full size keys
or rack mountable
Old 25th March 2020
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrumidi View Post
Or when they claim "I don't have space for a keyboard" yeah right as if you know how to play the instrument. 61 keys for the win! I love the FATAR keybed of the Blofeld, Yamaha DX7ii has a great keybed too, from what I had found out on the internet the DX7ii used a FATAR keybed too.

I havent bought the little Casio instead I got its big brother the CZ1.
DX7 mk1 = FX20 organ keybed
DX7 mk2, SY77, korg m1 = fs-61c keybed. It was also used in later Yamaha flagship models, I think even up to some generations of the motif series, ultimately to be succeeded by the FSX keybed, which is mostly just a leadfree variant

The action of these keybeds is nice but they are not (standard) fullsize keys, Yamaha synth keybeds are slightly narrower.
Old 25th March 2020
  #123
Gear Maniac
 
Kozmos88's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecaruption View Post
Mini keys are for those with baby hands, some people just have tiny baby hands and that's ok. They're also for those with baby keyboard skills, i.e. no background or skill in piano playing or musicianship. Manufacturers don't create mini keys because they think professionals want them, they do it to offer a product at a low price point for beginners/amateurs. They cut corners to save cost, you gotta cut cost somewhere and baby keys are cheaper to make.
let's hope you never suffer a chronic physical disability
and be unable to stand or sit behind a full size keyboard

~~~~~~~~~~
Old 25th March 2020
  #124
Gear Maniac
 
orangecaruption's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozmos88 View Post
let's hope you never suffer a chronic physical disability
and be unable to stand or sit behind a full size keyboard

~~~~~~~~~~
The Korg MS 20 Mini (with mini keys) is 86% the size of the real thing. So if I had a disability I'd be able to play that but not a synth 14% bigger? Possible I suppose, but I've never heard of mini keys touted as a solution designed for the disabled.
Old 25th March 2020
  #125
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWriter View Post
So, I found a sousaphone and just picked it right up and started playing it. Right?
Nice example of reductio ad absurdum

My point is quite simple, any musician worth their salt will be able to get on with any variation of the instrument(s) they play. The idea that anyone who plays mini keys is by default a bad player is the sort of logic that I only hear from people who cannot actually play - never a real trained musician.

Obviously people have preferences, I also prefer full size keys but it wouldn't be the end of the world if something has mini keys and have opted to use them for portability reasons and parts not being all that complex to warrant carrying around a massive keyboard.

Even funnier is people praising semi-weight Fatar keyboards after a load of nonsense about how only the best will do. All these keyboards are the equivalent to mini keys next to a real piano.
Old 25th March 2020
  #126
Lives for gear
 
Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Remember when Pratt and Read was the best, and Fatar was cheap crap? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Old 25th March 2020
  #127
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SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecaruption View Post
The Korg MS 20 Mini (with mini keys) is 86% the size of the real thing. So if I had a disability I'd be able to play that but not a synth 14% bigger? Possible I suppose, but I've never heard of mini keys touted as a solution designed for the disabled.
Get a bandsaw, wack your fingers off back to the middle knuckle. Go nutz.
Old 25th March 2020
  #128
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
...
My point is quite simple, any musician worth their salt will be able to get on with any variation of the instrument(s) they play. The idea that anyone who plays mini keys is by default a bad player is the sort of logic that I only hear from people who cannot actually play - never a real trained musician.
...
You simply cannot perform correct playing techniques with mini keys because they are too "mini". It has nothing to do with whether it resembles a real piano.
It is just that the dimensions and levers of the hand cannot be properly adjusted to mini keys.

best regards

PS: You will easily recognize this if you try to play a difficult piano piece on mini keys (piece of Beethoven, Chopin, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Cory Henry, ...).
Old 25th March 2020
  #129
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behrmoog View Post
You simply cannot perform correct playing techniques with mini keys because they are too "mini". It has nothing to do with whether it resembles a real piano.
It is just that the dimensions and levers of the hand cannot be properly adjusted to mini keys.

best regards

PS: You will easily recognize this if you try to play a difficult piano piece on mini keys (piece of Beethoven, Chopin, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Cory Henry, ...).
This video made me giggle:



And here is Cory Henry playing a Korg Odyssey long before the FS existed:



Composers like Beethoven & Chopin are silly examples to bring up as mini key keyboards are often limited to 2-3 octaves, so a lot of these types of works will be impossible to play regardless. The claim that its impossible doesn't seem like a statement based in fact.
It is a little difficult to adjust to a different size and will take a little practise. The issue is who has actually tried vs those giving up straight away because of confirmation bias?

Plus how many playing synthesisers are seriously playing Rachmaninov pieces on them?
Old 26th March 2020
  #130
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SkyWriter's Avatar
There a bit of black and white going on here. I've got a LOT of mini keys. And there is a serious amount of difference between the keys in terms of action - not just size, which to me in unimportant - it's the speed the key depresses and returns, the spring constant, all the Hook's law jazz makes a difference. Additionally, I don't believe any keyboard player isn't dependent on muscle memory to some degree. There is going to be a period of accommodation with every variation of mini-key. The true measure of a musicians ease of adjustment is proportional to temperament.

Y'all are just too impatient :-)
Old 26th March 2020
  #131
Lives for gear
 

There are distinctions between piano skills, organ skills, accordion skills, mini-key synth skills. There are different techniques to leverage the benefits and disadvantages of each technology. With mini-keys, one hand easily can stretch much further than an octave. They make different voicings and riffs more easily and likely to be played, and other ones nigh impossible. You can roll multiple notes easier on leads, because of small light keys that don't travel much. Often, one hand plays the keys while the other tweaks the knobs. "Keying an arp or sequencer line one finger at a time while twisting knobs and messing with a drum machine" is definitely in the mini-key lexicon. You wouldn't do that on a piano, and most people wouldn't choose a mini-key synth to play Chopin. It's fun to compare, knowing they're made for separate playing styles and goals.
Old 26th March 2020
  #132
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Musician's Avatar
I went with the Microkey 49 eventually.
Old 26th March 2020
  #133
Here for the gear
 

Minikeys are fine if they are good quality (Reface), not the ****ty toy things in the Mininova, Microkorg, JD-Xi...
Old 26th March 2020
  #134
Gear Maniac
Dorian Concept is stalking this thread on top of his pile of minikeys and steady $$ flow
Old 26th March 2020
  #135
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SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuggaMahone View Post
There are distinctions between piano skills, organ skills, accordion skills, mini-key synth skills. There are different techniques to leverage the benefits and disadvantages of each technology. With mini-keys, one hand easily can stretch much further than an octave. They make different voicings and riffs more easily and likely to be played, and other ones nigh impossible. You can roll multiple notes easier on leads, because of small light keys that don't travel much. Often, one hand plays the keys while the other tweaks the knobs. "Keying an arp or sequencer line one finger at a time while twisting knobs and messing with a drum machine" is definitely in the mini-key lexicon. You wouldn't do that on a piano, and most people wouldn't choose a mini-key synth to play Chopin. It's fun to compare, knowing they're made for separate playing styles and goals.
While I agree with all you're saying there, I'm going back it up to finger coordination. That's the primary keyboard skill. The adaptation to differing key respond characteristics is somewhat a lesser skill. Then finally key size adaptation being the least strenuous. Now, other folks may order it differently, or claim they're all concurrent, or taken one or two at a time, YMMV.

I'm going to put my money on the person that said you can play anything. Right after I see the Brandenburg Concerto on QWERTY. :-)
Old 26th March 2020
  #136
Gear Maniac
 
orangecaruption's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behrmoog View Post
You simply cannot perform correct playing techniques with mini keys because they are too "mini". It has nothing to do with whether it resembles a real piano.
It is just that the dimensions and levers of the hand cannot be properly adjusted to mini keys.

best regards

PS: You will easily recognize this if you try to play a difficult piano piece on mini keys (piece of Beethoven, Chopin, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Cory Henry, ...).
The usual usage of mini keys is a pretty light workout for amateurs, maybe to trigger a note or sample. Nothing wrong with that. But if you want to try to play Rachmaninoff on your casiotone, then I say knock yourself out.
Old 26th March 2020
  #137
Gear Nut
 
CZ Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behrmoog View Post
You simply cannot perform correct playing techniques with mini keys because they are too "mini". It has nothing to do with whether it resembles a real piano.
It is just that the dimensions and levers of the hand cannot be properly adjusted to mini keys.

best regards

PS: You will easily recognize this if you try to play a difficult piano piece on mini keys (piece of Beethoven, Chopin, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Cory Henry, ...).
It's a trick question right. The correct answer is they all played mini keys.
Chick Corea playing mini keys on his KX-5.


Keith Emerson playing the mini keys on the GX-1. Probably the most expensive mini key synthesizer.


And Beethoven composed a piece for this mini key portable hammer piano. The first keytar?


If you look at synthesizers begining, many of those tube based early units also had mini keys. The Hammond Solovox and Ondioline both had mini keys.
Jean-Jacques Perrey and his Ondioline.


Mini keys have been around for a long time.
Old 26th March 2020
  #138
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Rider View Post
And Beethoven composed a piece for this mini key portable hammer piano. The first keytar?
I need this in my life!
Old 26th March 2020
  #139
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Rider View Post
It's a trick question right. The correct answer is they all played mini keys.
Chick Corea playing mini keys on his KX-5.


Keith Emerson playing the mini keys on the GX-1. Probably the most expensive mini key synthesizer.


And Beethoven composed a piece for this mini key portable hammer piano. The first keytar?


If you look at synthesizers begining, many of those tube based early units also had mini keys. The Hammond Solovox and Ondioline both had mini keys.
Jean-Jacques Perrey and his Ondioline.


Mini keys have been around for a long time.
The Keith Emerson example is not quite right, since the GX1 had short keys, not mini keys. They were of the same width.

I saw Chick Corea play that keytar live and was very disappointed. I think he's much better at playing FS keyboards.
Old 26th March 2020
  #140
Lives for gear
Ok, ok, as always such a question "mini keys or not" is more complex and depends on playing style, playing purpose and so on.

However based on my playing experience I'm pretty sure that the size of standard keys is very good for complex playing.
Of course you can make them a little smaller (or bigger), but the size is in a very suitable range.

Smaller keys are not a new invention. Even in the classical period there were pianos with smaller keys.

By the way did I mention that I have some synths with mini keys?

best regards
Old 26th March 2020
  #141
Obviously both are best for any given situation. I think the 'feel' is equally important: the weight and response, also the haptic touch of the material...not all plastics are equal.
Old 26th March 2020
  #142
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Rezisehtnys's Avatar
The KX5 is also short keys, based on the keybed used in the DX7.
Old 26th March 2020
  #143
Gear Maniac
 
orangecaruption's Avatar
 

Mini keys are like driving a cheap chevy chevette, sure you can drive it, but if you have a choice to buy a higher quality car why wouldn't you? Most mini key synths are a few octaves, maybe 37 keys. The size difference between a 37 key full size keyboard and a 37 mini keyboard isn't significant, so am not understanding the portability argument here. I have an original Korg MS 20 and used to have a Korg MS 20 mini, and the slightly smaller size of the latter wasn't significant as far as portability or finding a spot for it in the studio. Got rid of the MS 20 mini.
Old 26th March 2020
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecaruption View Post
Mini keys are like driving a cheap chevy chevette, sure you can drive it, but if you have a choice to buy a higher quality car why wouldn't you? Most mini key synths are a few octaves, maybe 37 keys. The size difference between a 37 key full size keyboard and a 37 mini keyboard isn't significant, so am not understanding the portability argument here. I have an original Korg MS 20 and used to have a Korg MS 20 mini, and the slightly smaller size of the latter wasn't significant as far as portability or finding a spot for it in the studio. Got rid of the MS 20 mini.
Portability is more important for live use, which you've got to consider size & weight. A small difference in size & weight quickly adds up to a lot if you've got to walk around with it or get on public transport with it. Let alone space on & off stage.
Walked around East London with a Korg MS10 one time, nothing heavy really but after a while it does get on your nerves.

The difference between the Korg Microkeys and my old Novation controller keyboard was enough to go with the Korg as it was less of a pain in the ass in every aspect and helped musicians with full size digital pianos often enough to know its not a choice I'd ever make unless I had to as its pointless & stupid if I'm bringing that sort of gear just because of my ego. But this thread is full of such numpties.
Old 26th March 2020
  #145
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Portability is more important for live use, which you've got to consider size & weight. A small difference in size & weight quickly adds up to a lot if you've got to walk around with it or get on public transport with it. Let alone space on & off stage.
Walked around East London with a Korg MS10 one time, nothing heavy really but after a while it does get on your nerves.

The difference between the Korg Microkeys and my old Novation controller keyboard was enough to go with the Korg as it was less of a pain in the ass in every aspect and helped musicians with full size digital pianos often enough to know its not a choice I'd ever make unless I had to as its pointless & stupid if I'm bringing that sort of gear just because of my ego. But this thread is full of such numpties.
As a keyboardist I have tot disagree. Having mini Keys or 2-3 octaves van be a pain in the butt. Especially on 2-3 octaves its hard tot play something complex.

Some of us do make music not noise and random sounds. If we play in a live gig we simply rent a van. That's how most of us do it.

I have no idea but anytime someone mentions "portability" and "synthesizers" I immediately assume its just an another guy who has no idea how to make music just pretends while turning a few knobs here and there.

That's one of the reason why I despise the entire module community and avoided it like a STD. Really some people are so focused on trying to make these sounds while you could produce them with any synth. The only module videos that actually impressed me are the ones on the Behringer YouTube page.

IMHO if you know nothing about music theory you're just like a blind man who's trying to fly a plane. Reason why I can recommend people to learn to play the keyboard is it will make you way more creative and you'll understand way more compared to that hipster button pushing "producer". Most people see some pro play piano and they immediately get scared and think they can never play like that. If you have that mindset you'll never get over your boundaries. Here is the thing you don't have to be a pro player.

For me and my workflow mini keys are totally useless. If you can't lift a couple kilos you should hit the gym or get a driver license and buy a van.
Old 26th March 2020
  #146
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecaruption View Post
Mini keys are like driving a cheap chevy chevette, sure you can drive it, but if you have a choice to buy a higher quality car why wouldn't you? Most mini key synths are a few octaves, maybe 37 keys. The size difference between a 37 key full size keyboard and a 37 mini keyboard isn't significant, so am not understanding the portability argument here. I have an original Korg MS 20 and used to have a Korg MS 20 mini, and the slightly smaller size of the latter wasn't significant as far as portability or finding a spot for it in the studio. Got rid of the MS 20 mini.
Like the new Korg Wave station, they should fire the idiot who came up with the idea to attach a 3 octave keybed to the synth.

Portability means I don't have a car and I don't lift and I can't play keyboard so everything has to be small and light.

People are even asking for a module version of the Poly D

For mono synths 3 octaves are OK but 4 would be better. For polies it should be always 6 octaves.
Old 26th March 2020
  #147
Gear Maniac
 
orangecaruption's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Portability is more important for live use, which you've got to consider size & weight. A small difference in size & weight quickly adds up to a lot if you've got to walk around with it or get on public transport with it. Let alone space on & off stage.
Walked around East London with a Korg MS10 one time, nothing heavy really but after a while it does get on your nerves.

The difference between the Korg Microkeys and my old Novation controller keyboard was enough to go with the Korg as it was less of a pain in the ass in every aspect and helped musicians with full size digital pianos often enough to know its not a choice I'd ever make unless I had to as its pointless & stupid if I'm bringing that sort of gear just because of my ego. But this thread is full of such numpties.
Who is walking their studio or putting it on a bus to go to a gig, that is mental. So you want to walk your pro level keyboard around London to a gig? Why not get a car or van to haul your gear to a gig like others do? Also, I don't think anyone is talking about hauling full size digital pianos around. There are plenty of normal size midi keyboards that are quite easy to move around.
Old 26th March 2020
  #148
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangecaruption View Post
Who is walking their studio or putting it on a bus to go to a gig, that is mental. So you want to walk your pro level keyboard around London to a gig? Why not get a car or van to haul your gear to a gig like others do? Also, I don't think anyone is talking about hauling full size digital pianos around. There are plenty of normal size midi keyboards that are quite easy to move around.
People do in London. As I said I've helped friends with them.

People walk around with expensive instruments all the time. Very few people have cars as it's a ridiculous expensive luxury for many these days. Size & weight is very important for city dwellers these days.
Old 26th March 2020
  #149
Gear Maniac
 
orangecaruption's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
People do in London. As I said I've helped friends with them.

People walk around with expensive instruments all the time. Very few people have cars as it's a ridiculous expensive luxury for many these days. Size & weight is very important for city dwellers these days.
I guess if you can't do Uber that makes sense. Good thing you don't play drums mate!
Old 26th March 2020
  #150
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
People do in London. As I said I've helped friends with them.

People walk around with expensive instruments all the time. Very few people have cars as it's a ridiculous expensive luxury for many these days. Size & weight is very important for city dwellers these days.
An used van isn't a luxury item lol. If you can afford a couple synths you can afford an used van. There are cheap cars too you don't need a Mercedes Maybach
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