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Free software measures MIDI latency and jitter.
Old 2nd June 2018
  #331
Gear Addict
 
tomylee's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jauqq View Post
Good spot. Logic X normal MIDI tracks wasn't sending timestamps with the first versions of X. Just checked Logic X 10.4.1 and MIDI monitor shows the timestamps in the left column.

I'll have to check how it compares to the timing from the external instrument plug-in.
I also did a quick midi loopback test testing 4 scenarios:

external midi plugin class compliant
external midi plugin original driver
normal midi track class compliant
normal midi track original driver

checking the results graphically and "by eye" it looks like under logic the class compliant driver using the normal midi track seems to give the best timings now (!)

it used to be external midi instrument and proprietary driver for me some time ago, probably years, time flies..

but then I tought, ok, apple is probably improving things under their closed source hood of either OS or Logic itself, which they can and probably do, so why not test pro tools, there I made some wavs for the results, I compared the original driver to class compliant driver to a reference track, while the reference track nulls, the other tracks cause various amounts of spatialization movement, it shows pretty clearly that the original driver has a more homogenous stereo field in this test setup while the image of the recording using the class compliant driver seems to wander around

posting the files here

test setup: create a midi track with repeating midi notes, perfectly quantize them.

connect midi out 1 to midi in 1, send midi out to midi 1, record midi 1 (loopback test) do this once with the original driver, once with the class compliant driver

have the perfectly quantized midi file play some software instrument (I used xpand2) pan the instrument hard left, duplicate track and have the other instrument play the recorded midi file of either class compliant mode recording, or original driver loopback recording, pan these tracks hard left so that you hear the difference of the timings and jitter of each as movement in the stereo field.

that's the approach here, I also made sure that two identical xpand2 tracks null each other with a phase reverse switch, they did.

as I said, to me there is much more incoherent stereo field movement in class compliant mode which indicates more jitter.

tell me what you guys hear.

my personal conclusion is to still use the original driver for all softwares, apple probably did improvements for class compliant drivers across all interfaces, but I would not be surprised if only their proprietary logic software takes advantage of it, possibly to get an edge in the market, I generally don't like their practices and covertness in doing changes in general, and it shows PT likes the original driver better, I also assume cubase and live will live a better lives with original drivers, after all it has not changed for years and probably is easier for their softwares to work with. would love to have this confirmed by more scientific tests.
Attached Files

Class Compliant UM880 Driver Loopback.wav (2.11 MB, 2269 views)

Original UM880 Driver Loopback Loopback.wav (2.11 MB, 2282 views)

Quantized Midi.wav (2.11 MB, 2320 views)

Old 5th June 2018
  #332
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomylee View Post
hey man, so you're the maker of the software? why not sell it for $1? I'm sure nobody would mind to spend $1 for this, and if they can pay conveniently via paypal many would, it would surely cover for hosting costs no? let me know, I would love to pay up to $10 for a software like this
I have set up a basic website where the MLA software may be downloaded for free. The link is at the bottom of this post. I took your advice and included some paypal buttons for any who are happy to contribute.
Old 5th June 2018
  #333
Just bought some groceries.
Attached Thumbnails
Free software measures MIDI latency and jitter.-screen-shot-2018-06-05-18.49.00.png  
Old 6th June 2018
  #334
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmmmqac View Post
I have set up a basic website where the MLA software may be downloaded for free. The link is at the bottom of this post. I took your advice and included some paypal buttons for any who are happy to contribute.
Thanks a lot for the new download link. I am interested in your MIDI device Note Toucher is it available for purchase? What is the price with shipping to Austria?

Also if anyone here can make a cable for me I would pay for it and shipping to Austria.

I am going to test Atari TT030 with the following expanders: Steinberg Midex+, SoundPool MO4, Steinberg SMP24 firmware 1.6, C-Lab Unitor, Logic3, Export.

Tests will be done running CuBase Score 2.0 r7, Notator and Logic.

I am really interested to see what the results will be but I need someone to make me a proper cable

Thanks,

Edin
Old 7th June 2018
  #335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Just bought some groceries.
THANKYOU Thankyou thankyou so much. My wife was very happy too. This is the final week of teaching for me, so for the next month I will be biting my nails waiting to hear if the Uni want me back for another semester.
Old 7th June 2018
  #336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmmmqac View Post
THANKYOU Thankyou thankyou so much. My wife was very happy too. This is the final week of teaching for me, so for the next month I will be biting my nails waiting to hear if the Uni want me back for another semester.
You're welcome.

In case i ever got stuck in math, i know who to ask.



P.S. I totally dislike differential equations. They are such horrid things. Actually i'm afraid of them. :(

But I love 'e' and all the stories around it! It's sorta... this Universe's signature.
Old 21st August 2018
  #337
Hi Mmmmqac,

I can't seen to access your website any more, is it down? Or do you have an alternative link for this tool (osx)? If you are having issues hosting it I am more than happy to provide you free space on my server.

Thanks
Old 21st August 2018
  #338
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkstar De Luxe View Post
Hi Mmmmqac,

I can't seen to access your website any more, is it down? Or do you have an alternative link for this tool (osx)? If you are having issues hosting it I am more than happy to provide you free space on my server.

Thanks
There is a new link to the website and MLA download here:
Mmmmqac home
Old 24th August 2018
  #339
My apologies, I didn't know that the first link was dead (may be worth editing that to help out newbs like me)

Anyway, after some testing with a MOTU Micro Express and an iConnectivity mio10, I cannot get jitter less then 1ms over a 64bar loop. I'm using the latest version of OSX, and I have tried with both Logic Pro X and Ableton 10 - both provide the same results on the same hardware. Any advice?

Thanks everyone!
Old 25th August 2018
  #340
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkstar De Luxe View Post
My apologies, I didn't know that the first link was dead (may be worth editing that to help out newbs like me)

Anyway, after some testing with a MOTU Micro Express and an iConnectivity mio10, I cannot get jitter less then 1ms over a 64bar loop. I'm using the latest version of OSX, and I have tried with both Logic Pro X and Ableton 10 - both provide the same results on the same hardware. Any advice?

Thanks everyone!
How are you testing? Do you have a MIDI to audio cable?
Old 25th August 2018
  #341
I’m testing with a synthesizer (a Vermoma DRM, although I do have others). I’ve not yet made a midi to audio cable but I can do this weekend.
Old 25th August 2018
  #342
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkstar De Luxe View Post
I’m testing with a synthesizer (a Vermoma DRM, although I do have others). I’ve not yet made a midi to audio cable but I can do this weekend.

You're likely to be triggering the Vermoma from either Logic or Live, via either the MIO or MOTU, and then testing the Vermoma's audio output (8th's, 16th's) , yes?

The results you'd be seeing from this test would be a combination of jitter from the MIDI interface, PLUS jitter from the Vermoma's varying reaction time to the incoming MIDI signal.

Each receiving MIDI device will have some latency as it has to process the incoming MIDI signal, and then there will also be jitter, as the processing time can vary ever so slightly.

You're seeing this in your results.
Old 14th January 2019
  #343
Gear Addict
anybody ever tested Win 10? ideally with Ableton 10? I have a mio10 as well and quite often struggle with drifting notes and arps and wanted to get to the bottom of it.
I have read the whole thread though over a couple of days, so don't know if there's a reason why there's only OSX test :-)

(btw I donated so there's no starving
Old 6th March 2019
  #344
Here for the gear
 

I'm sorry to resurrect this thread again but I've read it through at least three times now because there is so much useful information. Thanks to everyone involved, especially Jauqq and Mmmmqac!

I need to invest in a Midi interface as my outboard hardware has grown over the last few months and the 2x2 midi interface on my RME Fireface 400 is not really able to handle it - I would like to get an 8x8 interface to have as many of my machines on their own port as possible. This would be with Logic Pro X on Mojave. It's great to hear that Logic finally sends MTS data from a standard Midi track.

The options seem to be:
(I thought it would be useful to have a summary!)

Edirol UM880 (used)
This still seems to be the gold standard, with proper MTS and no push/pull cycle. Hard to find though and no longer supported, but class compliant so seems to still work.

Emagic Unitor 8/AMT8 (used)
This is the one I can't work out. Ancient, no longer supported, possibility of a driver and preference pane out there, but not clear if Logic still supports its AMT version of midi time stamping? I think Jauqq found it didn't send from each port simultaneously though, which puts me off. There is one available locally to me however...

Motu Midi Express XT
Available new, does proper MTS albeit with a push/pull cycle? Apparently has issues sending Sysex data, which worries me as I need that feature.

ESI M8U XL (or eX?)
The eX is available new, the XL allegedly supported MTS, and yet doesn't seem to be recommended so much as some of the others? Also USB3 (not sure why that would help, given the low bandwidth needs of midi) and can do USB midi out the back from three USB ports (the eX version that is).

iConnectivity Mio10
Available new, includes the ability to connect a USB hub. Seems to have low jitter scores, but maybe doesn't send data out all ports simultaneously? Also has confusing configuration software.


So first of all, have I got anything wrong?
Have I missed an obvious contender?
What gives with the Unitor 8 - does it have tight midi timing or not?! I can get one tomorrow from nearby...
Why isn't everyone raving about the ESI M8U eX?
Why am I suspicious of the Mio10, in spite of its apparent abilities?

Old 6th March 2019
  #345
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison View Post

The options seem to be:
(I thought it would be useful to have a summary!)

Edirol UM880 (used)
This still seems to be the gold standard, with proper MTS and no push/pull cycle. Hard to find though and no longer supported, but class compliant so seems to still work.
Yes all correct. An amazing interface, the best one out of all those that I tested. I've even got a back up unit incase my current one breaks !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison View Post
Emagic Unitor 8/AMT8 (used)
This is the one I can't work out. Ancient, no longer supported, possibility of a driver and preference pane out there, but not clear if Logic still supports its AMT version of midi time stamping? I think Jauqq found it didn't send from each port simultaneously though, which puts me off. There is one available locally to me however...
I never actually tested this in OSX, but in OS9 on an old G4 PowerBook, Logic 5. Meant to support the Emagic AMT protocol but as you saw, it did not send MIDI from each port simultaneously. I've no idea if it behaves better in OSX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison View Post
Motu Midi Express XT
Available new, does proper MTS albeit with a push/pull cycle? Apparently has issues sending Sysex data, which worries me as I need that feature.
I tested the MIDI Express 128 with various versions of Logic and OSX, and yes there is that push pull cycle. I think there is also an issue of it not being able to be buss powered off newer Macs, and it requires a powered USB hub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison View Post
ESI M8U XL (or eX?)
The eX is available new, the XL allegedly supported MTS, and yet doesn't seem to be recommended so much as some of the others? Also USB3 (not sure why that would help, given the low bandwidth needs of midi) and can do USB midi out the back from three USB ports (the eX version that is).
Never tested it so can't comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterharrison View Post

iConnectivity Mio10
Available new, includes the ability to connect a USB hub. Seems to have low jitter scores, but maybe doesn't send data out all ports simultaneously? Also has confusing configuration software.
I had high hopes for this unit. Initial tests were promising, but when I started to do multi-port testing, I found that there was a very slight delay between the first and last ports, but that there were also push/ pull cycles on some of those ports. I ended up returning the unit i'd bought.

I'd hold out for a UM880, or UM550. They do come up, and it is worth it. Edirol / Roland should develop another USB interface with the same tech as the UM880, and that is still in their current 1 in/ 1 out MIDI interfaces.

Last edited by Jauqq; 6th March 2019 at 06:49 PM..
Old 6th March 2019
  #346
Here for the gear
 

Thanks, Jauqq, your input is much appreciated!

Still curious why so many people still stand by the Unitor units?

I wonder if anyone else can chime in about them on OS X?
Old 6th March 2019
  #347
Gear Maniac
 
Dewdman42's Avatar
 

can you please describe this push/pull behavior that has been mentioned in this thread? What is that? Jitter of course, but more precisely, what have you been observing with the devices mentioned? I've been relying on my MOTU USB Midi TimePiece for quite a while...presuming that it has MTS and all is good... but... If something is destroying MTS, I would like to understand that better. These days I mainly mix in the box honestly... so I have a hard time justifying spending money, though I would consider selling my MOTU's to get the UM880, if it was worth it for the couple of external synths I sometimes use. More important to me is the MTS of incoming midi when I record parts from a midi keyboard. For me that will sometimes be via the MOTU MTP, and sometimes via one of of my USB keyboards, and who knows what they are doing, I think likely they are not timestamping the notes I play. For example, NI Komplete Kontrol S keyboards...

Anyway, this topic has always been fascinating to me, but I never understood the push/pull thing that has been mentioned.
Old 7th March 2019
  #348
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jauqq View Post
Yes all correct. An amazing interface, the best one out of all those that I tested. I've even got a back up unit incase my current one breaks !!



I never actually tested this in OSX, but in OS9 on an old G4 PowerBook, Logic 5. Meant to support the Emagic AMT protocol but as you saw, it did not send MIDI from each port simultaneously. I've no idea if it behaves better in OSX.



I tested the MIDI Express 128 with various versions of Logic and OSX, and yes there is that push pull cycle. I think there is also an issue of it not being able to be buss powered off newer Macs, and it requires a powered USB hub.



Never tested it so can't comment.



I had high hopes for this unit. Initial tests were promising, but when I started to do multi-port testing, I found that there was a very slight delay between the first and last ports, but that there were also push/ pull cycles on some of those ports. I ended up returning the unit i'd bought.

I'd hold out for a UM880, or UM550. They do come up, and it is worth it. Edirol / Roland should develop another USB interface with the same tech as the UM880, and that is still in their current 1 in/ 1 out MIDI interfaces.

Hi,

So i bought various equipment and am decided to test the midi behavior on my systems before the end of the return policy period.
In order to report what I discover to everyone I could try to use the same protocol that you tested in order to keep thing a bit comparable. Could you explain once again how you proceed your benchmark test? Sorry for the repetition....

In a few days, i will have gathered a lot of stuff to test.
- PC on W10 Ableton live 10
- Mac mini 2018 Ableton live 10
With
- Mio10 with RTP-MIDI over Ethernet (or usb by default, which is not featuring mts compatibility according to inconnectivity faq)
- Roland um-one mk2
- Rme MADIFace XT midi
- e-rm multiclok usb

Cheers
Old 7th March 2019
  #349
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluc View Post
Hi,

So i bought various equipment and am decided to test the midi behavior on my systems before the end of the return policy period.
In order to report what I discover to everyone I could try to use the same protocol that you tested in order to keep thing a bit comparable. Could you explain once again how you proceed your benchmark test? Sorry for the repetition....

In a few days, i will have gathered a lot of stuff to test.
- PC on W10 Ableton live 10
- Mac mini 2018 Ableton live 10
With
- Mio10 with RTP-MIDI over Ethernet (or usb by default, which is not featuring mts compatibility according to inconnectivity faq)
- Roland um-one mk2
- Rme MADIFace XT midi
- e-rm multiclok usb

Cheers
Thanks for running tests, I am very interested in your results.
Old 5th April 2019
  #350
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluc View Post
Hi,

So i bought various equipment and am decided to test the midi behavior on my systems before the end of the return policy period.
In order to report what I discover to everyone I could try to use the same protocol that you tested in order to keep thing a bit comparable. Could you explain once again how you proceed your benchmark test? Sorry for the repetition....

In a few days, i will have gathered a lot of stuff to test.
- PC on W10 Ableton live 10
- Mac mini 2018 Ableton live 10
With
- Mio10 with RTP-MIDI over Ethernet (or usb by default, which is not featuring mts compatibility according to inconnectivity faq)
- Roland um-one mk2
- Rme MADIFace XT midi
- e-rm multiclok usb

Cheers
Hi,

Anyone knowing a commercially available midi to audio cable corresponding to this MIDI to audio adaptor so that I can measure the jitter of my midi interfaces only?
Old 20th May 2019
  #351
Lives for gear
 
initself's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jauqq View Post
In Logic X, the external instrument plug-in sends MIDI timestamps which is why the timing is excellent.
Does Logic 9's External Instrument plug-in do this as well? (can't currently test)
Old 1st September 2019
  #352
Lives for gear
 
Jauqq's Avatar
 

Tested a Roland S760 OS2.24.... sent it 16ths at 120bpm, for 84 bars.

I got RMS jitter 1.6ms... peak of nearly 19 ms!!!

MLA showed that 1293 hits were on time, but around 9 hits were late by 19ms, and 11 were late up to this amount.

Here's a small section of the audio.... you can hear the timing is very sloppy, and really bad towards the end of the file
Attached Files

S760 drum.mp3 (876.3 KB, 742 views)

Old 25th November 2019
  #353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluc View Post
Hi,

So i bought various equipment and am decided to test the midi behavior on my systems before the end of the return policy period.
In order to report what I discover to everyone I could try to use the same protocol that you tested in order to keep thing a bit comparable. Could you explain once again how you proceed your benchmark test? Sorry for the repetition....

In a few days, i will have gathered a lot of stuff to test.
- PC on W10 Ableton live 10
- Mac mini 2018 Ableton live 10
With
- Mio10 with RTP-MIDI over Ethernet (or usb by default, which is not featuring mts compatibility according to inconnectivity faq)
- Roland um-one mk2
- Rme MADIFace XT midi
- e-rm multiclok usb

Cheers
How did you fare with those test results? Super interested in comparing RTP-MIDI over Ethernet vs USB due to MTS.
Old 28th January 2020
  #354
Gear Nut
 
minusdb's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Awesome! One question. Since MIDI is 31250 bits/s, if we sample at 96kHz then audio card will grab all data, right?

I have a boatload of sequencer related gear to test:

Yamaha RS7000
Roland MC-300 MkII
Kawai Q-80EX
Yamaha QX-3
Ensoniq TS-10
Ensoniq ASR-10
E-MU EIV
E-MU E5000
Roland XP-50
Kurzweil K2600R
Roland S-550 (with Director S)

Can't wait to do it.
Have you tested the ASR-10? If so, I was wondering if you could post your results.

Thanks!
Old 1 week ago
  #355
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammy Havoc View Post
How did you fare with those test results? Super interested in comparing RTP-MIDI over Ethernet vs USB due to MTS.
Me too
Old 1 week ago
  #356
Gear Maniac
 
Dewdman42's Avatar
 

Does RTP-MIDI not include any form of MTS?
Old 3 hours ago
  #357
Here for the gear
 

After hours of digging around trying to solve some MIDI timing issues, I was very glad to find this thread, thanks for all the efforts posted here.

I've done some reconfiguring of my MIDI and would like to get in on the testing, but the OP link for the testing software seems broken. Is there a best method for adding to the testing here and measuring my setup all these years later?
Old 1 hour ago
  #358
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post
Does RTP-MIDI not include any form of MTS?
Yes, but it is dependend on the sender AND the receiver of it is applied or not. So usb might even be better.
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