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Ableton vs Cubase Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 4th October 2014
  #121
Gear Head
 

I've used both extensively. I like using Ableton to jot down ideas quickly, or for sound design. That's where it ends for me. I don't like how the aux sends are set up, I feel like there's a lack of control. Lately I've been doing most of my work in Studio One, bouncing out the stems, and mixing in Pro Tools anyway.

That and Live has been a CPU hog for me for some reason. On my buddies MB there's no issue, on mine Live likes to eat my resources more so than Omnisphere does, so it becomes useless when I have midi intensive tracks with a lot of automation going on.

If I were to choose between the two, it would be Cubase, mainly for sysex and expression maps. That and I feel like the faders in Ableton are linear rather than logarithmic. I don't get the same levels if I set a fader in Ableton to oh say -12dB and the same in Cubase. So far it's the only DAW I've noticed this with and it's bothersome to have to change my mentality on getting the right levels when I'm used to doing it in seconds on every other DAW I use.
Old 4th October 2014
  #122
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
is there anyone here, anyone..that uses Cubase on a mac and it actually works, works with NO issues..??
I've worked with Cubase since the days of Atari. Then with various versions on PCs with minimal issues. I feel the version 7.5 on Windows 7 is by far the most stable. On Macs it's not I'm afraid. I'm a Steinberg certified trainer and at the school we use Macs. Many crashes per day...
Old 4th October 2014
  #123
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lestermagneto's Avatar
I use Ableton ALL the time, as I always say, it is my favorite INSTRUMENT, but use it as a DAW as well, and while with some productions I might bounce stuff for Logic or PT etc, I have had pretty damn good luck even with large large sessions mixing with Ableton. I think BillCarroll's video was eye-opening to me in many regards, I'm not sure if I have encountered the same issues as obviously as he well demonstrates in his video, but I think he presents good empirical evidence in his demonstration. Perhaps I am just used to some slop...

With the caveat the I am not a EDM guy necessarily, although work extensively with electronics, I think that his points bear merit and are not specious... I tend to use SC'ing in other forms, not to create pumping so to speak, but more old school in perhaps "fixing" or masking some performance issues with say sloppily played guitar or addressing mix issues like making room for things sonically... that said, for my purposes, I usually use the stock ableton compressor and it's been ok to me, after i tailor it around a bit, so not sure if it is subject to the same latency issues mentioned.

I use all sorts of the 3rd party plugs, and not going to argue the relative merit vs. the stock stuff, it's subjective, and one uses the tool they want to accomplish the task at hand. The stock eq in ableton is fine for me 95% of the time for utility stuff, and it's not often I'll grab the FabFilter, although I imagine it is probably "superior" sounding to some... It depends on if I am looking for a plugin to impart some character or I am just simply trying to remove something between 200-300hz or whatnot.

Ableton has become one of my best friends sadly, but that doesn't make me not recognize the problems it DOES have, and I have a whole list of issues that I have either learned to deal with or found work arounds, or go someplace else for.

But I do wish Ableton would stop sweeping under the carpet some of these problems, realize that their product is being used actually as they are presenting now, as a full featured DAW, and not just a dj or sound manipulation tool, and it would be cool if they were to rethink their obstinance on their audio engine and PDC issues... the list goes on...

But I have made many acceptable works completely in it, from writing, to mastering, and I 'm sure that perhaps maybe sometimes somethings would have benefited from sample accurate automation to proper PDC reporting etc... but in an infinite world with finite time, I can, and have learned to live with it... At the end of the day, it's what accomplishes what our intent is, and for that, Ableton gets it done a lot of the time. But it does seem to be the most polarizing DAW out there (it approaches apple fanboi status vs. the detractors and many a member here has been banned ultimately for reverting to ad hominem attacks regarding it! ), some reasons both sane and some reasons silly, but I don't think Mr. Carroll is insane here, and he obviously likes the software himself, he is simply pointing out some issues that might help us all out, and to perhaps keep in mind going forward in the future...

I appreciate someone making an argument, backing it up with a demonstration, and teaching me something about the tools I use every day. I'm not really sure why it has to become an ad-hominem attack because people don't like to hear that sometimes the emperor is not wearing ALL his clothes...
Old 5th October 2014
  #124
Old 5th October 2014
  #125
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

Ableton is a great piece of software, but we need to know how to work around some of the issues. The more you know.
Old 5th October 2014
  #126
Gear Maniac
 
TemporalMix's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
LMAO! Is that your way of backing out of your ridiculous statement without having to use any logic or reason (no pun intended)?

I LOVE using Live. I have almost no problems with it ever. But since you're talking Acme parts, lets talk Live devices.

Tension. Perfect for when you want strings that sound nothing like stringed instruments.

Collision. So good, it'll leave you wondering why you didn't just use samples.

Amp and Cabinet. For when you can't afford Guitar Rig.

Saying third party plugins are acme parts compared to Ableton's Ferrari parts is beyond a joke. EQ8, compressor, glue compressor, drum rack, analog, operator, sampler, and a few others... Those are the Live Suite's saving graces. A lot of the devices are useless or crappy or both though. Compared to third party plugins made by Spectrasonics, NI, or iZotope, even the best Live devices look like crap.

I'm not really understanding why you would back out of the argument multiple times just to post some stupid picture as if it helps your stance. In other words, you're wrong. It's not a matter of opinion. It's not even something that is limited to music production. Go to Photoshop forums and they'll tell you the same thing. You can achieve better results with the right plugins.
Old 5th October 2014
  #127
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
LMAO! Is that your way of backing out of your ridiculous statement without having to use any logic or reason (no pun intended)?
haha great punning there..
Old 5th October 2014
  #128
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
LMAO! Is that your way of backing out of your ridiculous statement without having to use any logic or reason (no pun intended)?

I LOVE using Live. I have almost no problems with it ever. But since you're talking Acme parts, lets talk Live devices.

Tension. Perfect for when you want strings that sound nothing like stringed instruments.

Collision. So good, it'll leave you wondering why you didn't just use samples.

Amp and Cabinet. For when you can't afford Guitar Rig.

Saying third party plugins are acme parts compared to Ableton's Ferrari parts is beyond a joke. EQ8, compressor, glue compressor, drum rack, analog, operator, sampler, and a few others... Those are the Live Suite's saving graces. A lot of the devices are useless or crappy or both though. Compared to third party plugins made by Spectrasonics, NI, or iZotope, even the best Live devices look like crap.

I'm not really understanding why you would back out of the argument multiple times just to post some stupid picture as if it helps your stance. In other words, you're wrong. It's not a matter of opinion. It's not even something that is limited to music production. Go to Photoshop forums and they'll tell you the same thing. You can achieve better results with the right plugins.
yup, thats my response. i like to let the art do the talking.
Old 5th October 2014
  #129
Lives for gear
 
barryfell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
LMAO! Is that your way of backing out of your ridiculous statement without having to use any logic or reason (no pun intended)?
Old 5th October 2014
  #130
Lives for gear
 
barryfell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
I use Ableton ALL the time, as I always say, it is my favorite INSTRUMENT, but use it as a DAW as well, and while with some productions I might bounce stuff for Logic or PT etc, I have had pretty damn good luck even with large large sessions mixing with Ableton. I think BillCarroll's video was eye-opening to me in many regards, I'm not sure if I have encountered the same issues as obviously as he well demonstrates in his video, but I think he presents good empirical evidence in his demonstration. Perhaps I am just used to some slop...

With the caveat the I am not a EDM guy necessarily, although work extensively with electronics, I think that his points bear merit and are not specious... I tend to use SC'ing in other forms, not to create pumping so to speak, but more old school in perhaps "fixing" or masking some performance issues with say sloppily played guitar or addressing mix issues like making room for things sonically... that said, for my purposes, I usually use the stock ableton compressor and it's been ok to me, after i tailor it around a bit, so not sure if it is subject to the same latency issues mentioned.
As I mentioned in my earlier post in reply to Bill's, yes the stock Ableton compressor is subject to latency issues with side chaining. It seems to be an inherent problem with all side chaining in Live. Thankfully it resolves itself when bounced.
Old 5th October 2014
  #131
ableton great for tracking.. cubase much more organized for arranging. (same goes for logic for that matter)
Old 5th October 2014
  #132
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiegoHostettler View Post
ableton great for tracking.. cubase much more organized for arranging. (same goes for logic for that matter)
funny, we all have our different ways of working, but I find ableton horrible for "tracking" real world stuff, ala vocals/guitars etc... great to write with in early form or track with in early form, but the second you start piling on the session there is NO WAY IN HELL i can record vocals or anything else from "OTB" into it because of it's inefficient engine and latency nightmares, and then pile on with it's poor comping ability (and no, I am not, nor can, record vocals in the session view, it's not the way I work)...

interesting how everyone approaches it differently. I find ableton amazing for arranging, better then logic or pt in that I can work almost the way I did in studio vision (RIP, and a big F.U. Gibson), ... It, for me anyways, is a lot more fungible in creating flexible arrangements.... and for a sketch pad of ideas, or working out my ideas, nothing easier that I know, ... I don't always start off knowing exactly what I am trying to communicate, and Ableton accommodates my pre-natal attempts FAR better then Logic or DP or PT ever could. But then I often have to bounce out 2 track or stems to record guitars or drums or vocals in said DAW's because I can't in ableton due to it's nature, latency, and inability to have such simple obvious 1989 things like "takes", "notes", etc....... but then for some reason (maybe i like cutting myself?), I usually end up rolling it back into ableton for more rinse and repeat...
Old 5th October 2014
  #133
Gear Maniac
 
TemporalMix's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
...because of it's inefficient engine and latency nightmares, and then pile on with it's poor comping ability (and no, I am not, nor can, record vocals in the session view, it's not the way I work)...
If Live 10 had nothing new but was re-written from the ground up in a way that would streamline it, make it more efficient, and cure it of being such a dsp hog, I would pay for the upgrade in a heartbeat.

It's number one on my Ableton wish-list.
Old 5th October 2014
  #134
Lives for gear
 
Dirtycircuit's Avatar
I use ableton most of the time but when I want to get a vintage vibe I use Logic 6 on a beige G3...lol
Old 5th October 2014
  #135
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
If Live 10 had nothing new but was re-written from the ground up in a way that would streamline it, make it more efficient, and cure it of being such a dsp hog, I would pay for the upgrade in a heartbeat.

It's number one on my Ableton wish-list.
100% agreed. I don't need new softube collaborations, and library browsers, blah blah blah...:

spend the time and money to get the audio engine to be as efficient as some of their competition and address the KNOWN problems as pointed out by billcarroll and others.... and then perhaps add something as revolutionary as "notes" or "takes" or "comping".... I'm sure that they are building code upon code of duct taped together stuff to work, and then half their dev team runs to bitwig,

... but get it together.

(and i understand the nature of their engine to be more difficult then others with lots of src going on, and the fact that it was initially designed as sheerly an audio pitch/time manipulation tool, with midi thrown in later etc... I get it's legacy, used it back then... but if you claim to be a big boy, pull your pants up in some regards...)

I simply just want the BASIS of what it is to work as well as other daws. Efficient. and not having to second guess what is going to happen to the whole session when I throw an instance of izotope alloy on something in terms of skewing phase coherence, automation, etc...

I would pay money for an upgrade that just makes what they claim works now.

(and again, I love it and use it every day, so there is some vitriol for a product I rely on and really like most aspects of, but , get some stuff straight please.. )
Old 5th October 2014
  #136
the great thing about cubase is you only have to use cubase... no need to create in one and mix in another Cubase can and does do it all.
Old 5th October 2014
  #137
Lives for gear
 

Cubase does not do Session View
Old 5th October 2014
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clonkified View Post
Cubase does not do Session View
Session view, as in viewing your session? In 7.5 you can see it above the stranger view.
Old 5th October 2014
  #139
Lives for gear
 

No...

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/...-session-view/

It is what makes Live so unique.
Old 5th October 2014
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clonkified View Post
No...

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/...-session-view/

It is what makes Live so unique.
I'm guessing that's based off looping? I've seen guys dj that way. I could not make a tune that way, but that's me. Blocks of midi with a play button does little for creativity. I could see how some would say it helps tho as there is not much distraction . I'm of the opinion. If it works for you then it must be for you. I got no issue with anyone using anything that works. I just prefer cubase and I have used most daws. I have not used the newer ones like reaper or bitwig not even studio one. I just feel cubase does it all and does it very well. Anyone that lives ableton more power to them. I still feel the op needs to test himself. Keep beating beat makers!
Old 6th October 2014
  #141
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
I'm guessing that's based off looping? I've seen guys dj that way. I could not make a tune that way, but that's me. Blocks of midi with a play button does little for creativity. I could see how some would say it helps tho as there is not much distraction . I'm of the opinion. If it works for you then it must be for you. I got no issue with anyone using anything that works. I just prefer cubase and I have used most daws. I have not used the newer ones like reaper or bitwig not even studio one. I just feel cubase does it all and does it very well. Anyone that lives ableton more power to them. I still feel the op needs to test himself. Keep beating beat makers!
Makes composition faster as you can combine loops without being attached to a time line.
Old 6th October 2014
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
is there anyone here, anyone..that uses Cubase on a mac and it actually works, works with NO issues..??
I use it everyday on Mac, it runs as good as it does on PC.
Old 6th October 2014
  #143
Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
Makes composition faster as you can combine loops without being attached to a time line.
More than anything that sounds fun. For me, that is what matters.
Old 6th October 2014
  #144
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
I use it everyday on Mac, it runs as good as it does on PC.

would you mind expanding on that and telling us what version of cubase, what version of osx and what your computer specs are please..?
Old 6th October 2014
  #145
Gear Maniac
 
Kissed's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
I'm guessing that's based off looping? I've seen guys dj that way. I could not make a tune that way, but that's me. Blocks of midi with a play button does little for creativity. I could see how some would say it helps tho as there is not much distraction . I'm of the opinion. If it works for you then it must be for you. I got no issue with anyone using anything that works. I just prefer cubase and I have used most daws. I have not used the newer ones like reaper or bitwig not even studio one. I just feel cubase does it all and does it very well. Anyone that lives ableton more power to them. I still feel the op needs to test himself. Keep beating beat makers!
Not just looping, but as mentioned before, a great platform for sketching ideas. You can run a number of variations until you determine the proper fit. It's also a great way to just experiment.

It does have its own quirks dependent on its engine though, and I'm not sure how it fairs head-to-head with Logic or Cubase with time-stretching. As far as I know, whatever testing had been done was without affecting the audio with the non-neutral operations listed in the back of the manual.

That said, I'm curious to know how much of the fidelity is degraded after using various warp choices.
Old 6th October 2014
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
would you mind expanding on that and telling us what version of cubase, what version of osx and what your computer specs are please..?
Cubase 7.5.30, OSX 10.9.5 on an 2011 iMac i5 3.1, 16 gigs of ram, UAD Apollo Twin, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Waves complete bundle, Slate Digital VCC and much more!

Never crash most project never use more than 40% CPU I'm happy. Cubase has gapless punch ins so when I'm tracking I'm changing channels on the fly and punching in and out smooth as silk!!!

I also have a PC with Windows 7 running an i5 2.7 CPU and 16 gigs of ram. They both run great OS X just look better!!!
Old 6th October 2014
  #147
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
Cubase 7.5.30, OSX 10.9.5 on an 2011 iMac i5 3.1, 16 gigs of ram, UAD Apollo Twin, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Waves complete bundle, Slate Digital VCC and much more!

Never crash most project never use more than 40% CPU I'm happy. Cubase has gapless punch ins so when I'm tracking I'm changing channels on the fly and punching in and out smooth as silk!!!

I also have a PC with Windows 7 running an i5 2.7 CPU and 16 gigs of ram. They both run great OS X just look better!!!
thanks that's interesting to know
all the talk I had been hearing was that it crashed a lot on a mac, someone even in this thread said it too..

I would love to have it installed if it ran, that way could actually access VST plug ins for the odd synth line etc and bounce down to audio to use in Reason.
Old 6th October 2014
  #148
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
the evidence is damning..

Copy this > Cubase 7.5 on mac using mavericks

into your browser search and read the SOS link that pops up in the search list...
Old 6th October 2014
  #149
Lives for gear
 

It crashes for me once in a while on OS X (Cubase 7.5.3). For example, if I have a 4 bar loop and I try to insert a plugin while it is playing live, occasionally, it will crash. Pro Tools 11 and Logic X will just throw up a CPU error, but won't crash.
Old 6th October 2014
  #150
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
the CPU error thing is the reason I got rid of Logic and went back to Reason, what a pain the ass that was every second rewind of a track...never again will I use that DAW.
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