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Ableton vs Cubase Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 3rd October 2014
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
take it easy mate, my post was clearly tongue in cheek and a bit of fun...did you not see the cheeky policeman icon..??
amended
Old 3rd October 2014
  #92
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TemporalMix's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
Yeah, it's in the Ableton Live manual:



https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/wo...y-compensation

All 3rd party plugins and Max 4 Live devices cause a delay in Ableton Live, and that delay is equal in samples to your buffer setting. In addition, if the 3rd party plugin adds latency then total latency for that plugin is equal to your buffer setting + the additional latency of the plugin.

I hope that helps.
You know, these are the things that actually piss me off about Ableton as a company. Don't get me wrong, I love Live, but they charge too much, Live is a dsp hog, and there is stupid **** wrong with it that they are aware of that they still haven't fixed.

At least their support is decent, but damn. Fix stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
i never use any 3rd party any way....why even bother with it. if youre one of many who buy a new plugin every week because you think it will make you a pro..or if you need 50 meters telling you 50 useless statisitcs as the sound is playing..then you wont fit with ableton. if you like making music....you will fit with ableton.
Third party plugins, whether you're making music, using photoshop, video editing, etc. are (at least the good ones) exponentially better than the stock devices.

Let's take Live for example:

What sounds better and is more powerful, Operator or FM8?

What's going to get you better sounding drums, the "Studio Drums" live pack or Superior Drummer 2?

What's going to get you a more realistic bass guitar "performance", the bass guitar live pack or Trilian?

Plugins aren't necessary to make great music. They do make making great sounding music a lot easier though.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
If you go to Ableton forums people act like this is the end of the world. These are the same people who agonize over tests about sample accurate timing.

It only matters if you are trying to make very tight automation tweaks with third party plugins that have high audio latency. The audio is not delayed, just the timing of the automation. When using automation to do effects like drawing volume gating at 64th note intervals it is a problem, for a lot of automation tasks it's not even noticeable.

Some Live users switched to Bitwig which has no automation latency only to find that Bitwig was buggy in other places and lacked features that Live has had for years. Horses for courses.
Indeed. I've used Live for about 6 years after moving from Cubase and the issue has never been a noticeable problem for me apart from a couple of times when i've used a very high latency plugin earlier in the chain, and I just manually compensated my automation.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #94
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Quote:
What sounds better and is more powerful, Operator or FM8?
Ive never tried FM8, but I believe operator is just as powerful.....especially when you can create as many instances of it as you want.
Old 4th October 2014
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
Ive never tried FM8, but I believe operator is just as powerful.....especially when you can create as many instances of it as you want.
Hey, I love Operator but I love FM8 way more. It is WAY more powerful.

It has two more oscillators, a noise generator, and you are not limited by pre-made algorithms. You can route your operators any way you want. There are also way more waveforms to choose from. It has WAY more features period.

You can also make as many instances as you want with FM8.

And of course, the most important thing: it flat out sounds better. MUCH better.
Old 4th October 2014
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
And of course, the most important thing: it flat out sounds better. MUCH better.
I'd disagree with that. Operator: horrible tiny GUI that sits at the bottom of my huge screen but LOVELY sound f'sure.
Old 4th October 2014
  #97
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e-smile-z's Avatar
buy reaper
Old 4th October 2014
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e-smile-z View Post
buy reaper
I'd quit music rather than use reaper. No I kiid I kiid. But seriously, when I tried it, no fun.
Old 4th October 2014
  #99
Would like to submit another rabble rabble about Live's terrible delay compensation issues.

They've been there since the beginning. Other DAWs work better now. WTF, Ableton?

I'm integrating outboard effects and synths in my workflow and its a nightmare.


I think I'm now going to be using hybrid Live and Logic, MPC2000XL and a Sync Gen Pro 2.
Old 4th October 2014
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsam View Post
I'd disagree with that. Operator: horrible tiny GUI that sits at the bottom of my huge screen but LOVELY sound f'sure.
That's why I like it, like I said. Compared to FM8? Not so much.
Old 4th October 2014
  #101
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GYang's Avatar
I have no dilemmas with both.
I use them regularly and Cubase is what I consider 'real DAW' when tracking, editing and mixing is done in 'standard fashion'. It is solid, sounds good and there are not too many complaints on it. I may easy live with Cubase alone, but I very much appreciate Ableton strengths and use it for part of production related to softsynths and creative arrangements where it opens lot of options and massively increase workflow.
It is not one vs other, as both DAWs are different in feel and character, Ableton is IMO 80% instrument what Cubase lacks.
In pro terms (stability, sound, overall integration) Cubase is on the top and I don't think that Ableton even need to try to compete over that.

One simpler DAW that I love much more over both is Tracktion and not for features being better than Cubase/Ableton, but for clever and intuitive implementation of everything necessary to make project fast without being bored in between.
After all, if it is good for pros like Steve Ferrone (making whole album on it), at least it is worth good try Steve Ferrone & Friends LIVE with T5!
Old 4th October 2014
  #102
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you can create whatever wav e form you want in operator......
noise generator...meh
two more osciallators? yea that would be nice to have

the user created algorithms....this...this is where I really wish operator had that.... in Live 10 I've made numerous requests to have that feature added....we'll see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
Hey, I love Operator but I love FM8 way more. It is WAY more powerful.

It has two more oscillators, a noise generator, and you are not limited by pre-made algorithms. You can route your operators any way you want. There are also way more waveforms to choose from. It has WAY more features period.

You can also make as many instances as you want with FM8.

And of course, the most important thing: it flat out sounds better. MUCH better.
Old 4th October 2014
  #103
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Well, Operator vs. FM8 aside, I just don't think there's any reason to hate on plugins since they are generally much better than stock devices be it in Ableton or anywhere else.

Developers like Spectrasonics, NI, iZotope, etc. pretty much have products that are LEAGUES above anything that comes with the Live Suite. Seriously, name ONE Live device that can touch Omnisphere. Or Trilian. Or Ozone 5. Or Massive, Absynth, and FM8?

Plugins are awesome and not having them doesn't make them less awesome.
Old 4th October 2014
  #104
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This is interesting, Bill sent me a video of the issue via PM where Kickstart was way out of time for him. I tried to replicate it for myself, but had no such issue with Kickstart even with Fabfilter in Linear Phase mode before it, as seen below:


However, using Live's compressor with SC did create an issue, as it was way out, as seen below. Both visibly and audibly.



This issue remains all the way through to final mixdown output bounce, so is a major issue if using SC. A way round it though is to record the track to another track, in which case it's fine. (See blue track above which has the correct timing, despite Volumeshaper on the track it was recorded from showing how out it was) Freeze/flatten won't work since you can't freeze tracks which have SC routing to them, so recording to another track is the only way.

With regard to other plugins, I had no problem with the timing of the likes of delays, even with the likes of Fabfilter in Linear Phase mode before it and Volumeshaper showing it as being out of time. Freezing, recording and final render timing all remained correct (including with return tracks). (See cyan track above, 1/8th note delay shown bang on time in the bounce)

What I take from this is that I should be very careful about using SC plugins, and if I use them I should record the tracks once i'm happy with them to fix the latency issue.

Edit: See here after further testing.
Old 4th October 2014
  #105
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
is there anyone here, anyone..that uses Cubase on a mac and it actually works, works with NO issues..??
Old 4th October 2014
  #106
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If you ignore the session view there's not much different in the workflow, though I prefer to have all the inserts open ready for editing at the bottom of the screen than having to open them each individually, but that's just me.

Every DAW has differences, but they all do the same job.
Old 4th October 2014
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TemporalMix View Post
Well, Operator vs. FM8 aside, I just don't think there's any reason to hate on plugins since they are generally much better than stock devices be it in Ableton or anywhere else.

Developers like Spectrasonics, NI, iZotope, etc. pretty much have products that are LEAGUES above anything that comes with the Live Suite. Seriously, name ONE Live device that can touch Omnisphere. Or Trilian. Or Ozone 5. Or Massive, Absynth, and FM8?

Plugins are awesome and not having them doesn't make them less awesome.
I can't say I agree.....but I'm glad you like all those products. They're useful to you.
Quote:

This issue remains all the way through to final mixdown output bounce, so is a major issue if using SC. A way round it though is to record the track to another track, in which case it's fine. (See blue track above which has the correct timing, despite Volumeshaper on the track it was recorded from showing how out it was) Freeze/flatten won't work since you can't freeze tracks which have SC routing to them, so recording to another track is the only way.

With regard to other plugins, I had no problem with the timing of the likes of delays, even with the likes of Fabfilter in Linear Phase mode before it and Volumeshaper showing it as being out of time. Freezing, recording and final render timing all remained correct (including with return tracks). (See cyan track above, 1/8th note delay shown bang on time in the bounce)

What I take from this is that I should be very careful about using SC plugins, and if I use them I should record the tracks once i'm happy with them to fix the latency issue.
all this headache...is why I use zero 3rd party plugs.....and I'm a musician making eclectronic music, I'm not a recording engineer, sound professional...and you shouldnt be using ableton if thats what you are any way........ableton is made for musicians by musicians....it's not a professional studio wannabe.....it's a performance tool......like seriously.....who is using fabfilter on stage....these are all unnecessary cpu-hogging plugins that really have no consequence in as live performance enviromeniemtn....that's why this whole discussion is apples and oranges. like if you're using ableton to do all this hitech edioting and sound aprsing and stuff....you're in the wrong neiborhood
Old 4th October 2014
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
all this headache...is why I use zero 3rd party plugs.....and I'm a musician making eclectronic music, I'm not a recording engineer, sound professional...and you shouldnt be using ableton if thats what you are any way........ableton is made for musicians by musicians....it's not a professional studio wannabe.....it's a performance tool......like seriously.....who is using fabfilter on stage....these are all unnecessary cpu-hogging plugins that really have no consequence in as live performance enviromeniemtn....that's why this whole discussion is apples and oranges. like if you're using ableton to do all this hitech edioting and sound aprsing and stuff....you're in the wrong neiborhood
Are you honestly trying to say Live shouldn't be used by people using third party plugins?

It's laughable to say it's only for live performance work. It's at least hundreds of thousands of people's production DAW, who release thousands of great records, and rightly so as it has a great workflow and numerous attractive features for producers, not just live performers.

It seems to me that the only real issues are with sidechaining between tracks and automation timing issues when using high latency plugins, so not a huge issue as there are workarounds for using it in a non-live situation.
Old 4th October 2014
  #109
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Ok partly scratch what I said about the SC issue. I just done some more testing and it fixes itself on mixdowns. The issue remains when it's playing 'live' though, and can be audibly out of time when you push it with high latency plugins prior.

I guess this is why Live projects can sometimes sound a little sloppy when it's being played live, but tightens up once rendered. I've always noticed that on busy projects, but wasn't certain on the reason. I'll still use the workaround of bouncing SC'd tracks though so I don't have the issue at any point.

Not using latency inducing plugins when playing out live with Live however seems to be essential if you are doing any sidechaining.
Old 4th October 2014
  #110
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I just wouldnt start putting acme parts in a ferrari engine. it's my philosphy.
Old 4th October 2014
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
I just wouldnt start putting acme parts in a ferrari engine. it's my philosphy.
So all third party plugins are "acme" parts, and Live plugins are of a "Ferrari" level of superiority?
Old 4th October 2014
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
So all third party plugins are "acme" parts, and Live plugins are of a "Ferrari" level of superiority?
is that what you think?
Old 4th October 2014
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxadax View Post
If you ignore the session view there's not much different in the workflow
I have both and find Live's workflow way faster for things like MIDI programming and laying out samples. Ableton, intelligently IMO, have followed Pro Tools' paradigm around having a selection area / cursor that is always available / active. This makes things like duplicating portions of time (vs. just notes) super easy - great for programming beats. Cubase does not do this, which slows down the workflow IMO. Just one example out of many I've found.
Old 4th October 2014
  #114
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barryfell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
is that what you think?
I'm asking you the question. Hence the question mark.
Old 4th October 2014
  #115
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Dysanfel's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
The sole reason I bought Live 6 was because it was the only DAW I could find in 2007 that allowed full screen video playback on a second desktop (without a bar across the top of the screen) so I could use a projector gigging. It was later that I realized how cool Live was compared to PT, and I ditched my DIGI002R and PT7.
Old 4th October 2014
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
I'm asking you the question. Hence the question mark.
why do you care what i think?
Old 4th October 2014
  #117
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barryfell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by inversound View Post
why do you care what i think?
I don't really, but you made a ridiculous statement so I'm inclined to question it.
Old 4th October 2014
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
For those who have issues with how Live sounds, I really hope you took the time to learn about the different warping modes (and when not to use it). Keeping everything on beats/transients (the default) is a potential reason why some people think it doesn't sound as good as other DAWs.

Here's a good guide:
Effective WarpingTips iIn Ableton Live 9 : AskAudio Magazine
Makes no major difference imo.
Old 4th October 2014
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raddler View Post
Makes no major difference imo.
I guess the issue of how 'major' you think the issue of poor timestretching is or isn't is subjective so fair enough.
Old 4th October 2014
  #120
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TemporalMix's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by barryfell View Post
So all third party plugins are "acme" parts, and Live plugins are of a "Ferrari" level of superiority?
Bahahahahaha! That's exactly what I was thinking! That made zero sense!
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