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Ableton vs Cubase Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2nd October 2014
  #61
Gear Nut
 

I used Cubase for years and just recently switched to Ableton. Ableton is a thousand times more intuitive and easier to use than Cubase. It's made for writing music. The only thing you can say about Cubase is that it possible sounds better...which is debatable....and better for mixing which I can see that.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #62
There is no comparison

Cubase is the real deal

Ableton made for loops n live looping, lol
Old 2nd October 2014
  #63
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Ableton. It's the only DAW I ever liked besides maybe Fruity. :P
Old 2nd October 2014
  #64
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
We are not talking just about rack chains, we are talking about any plugins you put on a track. Rack chain, plugin on the track, or plugin loaded into patchwork it doesn't matter. Ableton does not report the latency to any of the plugins on the track.
I'm inclined to agree with you billcarroll, but what does the PDC on/off actually DO in ableton? There must be some host reporting right?
Old 2nd October 2014
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
I'm inclined to agree with you billcarroll, but what does the PDC on/off actually DO in ableton? There must be some host reporting right?
The final output of each track is kept in time with with the final output of the other tracks as they hit the master track.

Unfortunately, because latency in the track is not reported to plugins in that track, the output of some tracks will be an out of time mess.

Example sidechaining a baseline with a kick.

Add a track with a kick sample, and set it to 4/4 using midi or in audio. Then add a midi track and toss on a synth for bass. Dial up a nice bass patch. Then add your favorite 3rd party EQ, and perhaps a 3rd party delay, and of course some 3rd party distortion, and whatever. Finally, toss on a sidechain tool like Kickstart. First of all, your delay will be out of time with the kick. Next, the sidechain will also be out of time with your kick because kickstart will receive no information from Ableton about the plugins that come before it on the track. And this is just with "zero latency" plugins. Add a plugin that adds some latency like 1 EQ in Linear phase mode, and you will be way way out of time.

To keep things in time you could bounce down each plugin as you add it, and work primarily in audio.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #66
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
Yes it does, sorry.
No it doesn't. Test it and get back to me.

Sorry, not trying to be rude. I'm just trying to make this clear so people understand it. Sent you a PM.

Last edited by billcarroll; 3rd October 2014 at 01:17 AM.. Reason: clarification
Old 3rd October 2014
  #67
Lives for gear
spent four years using cubase on pc. got fed up spending more ensuring my pc actually worked properly vs making music so switched to Mac.

Cubase was useless on Mac - many many issues so switched to logic and barely lost an hour to issues in the past 5 years.

Never used Ableton but has never appealed dont have any problems coming up with arrangements using a classic timeline.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #68
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlestickz
I don't get Ableton, it's weird

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
Ableton started as an audio only tool, while Cubase started as MIDI only which is why they are so different.

Do you use drum machines?
I started with an Atari and midi sequencing with Cubase, when that retired I went across to a PC with Cubase, now I use only a mac with Reason, I'm comfortable within midi sequencing environments, but ever since Reason gave us audio tracks and midi in & out, I've been using those heavily, particularly the audio side. When I tried Ableton I was a heavy Cubase - midi sequencing user and just did not click with the Ableton environment at all, couldn't find things and it became confusing so I dropped it like a hot potato...

Was the same with Logic, someone gave me the boxed set of Logic 8 and I tried to use it, but every time I'd try to I'd end up shutting it down in frustration and opening Reason, I will never use another DAW now, I'm way too comfortable with Reason, just wish they would allow VST instruments into their amazing rack system, then when I buy my system1 I could run multiple sh2-101 plugs in Reason & Kong for beats...now that would be incredible..

When I get the Sys1 I will have to record everything as audio, but that's ok I'm comfortable with that as that's how I work now and I've got it going great guns at the mo..

As for drum machines, I have a Machinedrum, and I've made some tracks with it, it sounds meh actually.. but it's not that so much cause I effect everything heavily a lot anyways, it's not really gelling with my workflow like I thought it would, it comes down to it's the little pokey screens on these things that always piss me off, I have two massive 27 inch flat screens looking at Reason racks-mixer etc.., and then I have to lean down to look into this ridiculous "fire" red colored LCD 3 inches wide just to change a few parameters, I don't know if I'll keep it to be honest, Kong is incredible for drums, and there are a couple of other analog style drum machines in Reason I like to use that are amazingly simple and sound brilliant...

I'm a DAW person for the song building writing etc, I will jam on external instruments like iPads, drum machines, synths etc but I will bring those jams that I like and have saved straight to the DAW for recording and often build songs off those sounds, once that external instruments sounds have been recorded I will unplug it put it away, I would never jam in a DAW or jam with external instruments and build complete songs with several instruments outside the box, it's way too fiddly for me, I like to see everything in bright lights on my screens, plus I'm quite impatient, if I want to edit something I want to do it fast and deadly accurate, DAW's are the king for this..
Old 3rd October 2014
  #69
Lives for gear
 

I think you must be to use Cubase over Ableton in any of these areas:

1. Speed
2. Workflow
3. Audio effects
4. Midi effects
5. Creative Possibilities


It takes like 4 motions to create an external instrument track in Cubase. It's way slower then Ableton.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #70
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by omsk View Post
spent four years using cubase on pc. got fed up spending more ensuring my pc actually worked properly vs making music so switched to Mac.

Cubase was useless on Mac - many many issues so switched to logic and barely lost an hour to issues in the past 5 years.

Never used Ableton but has never appealed dont have any problems coming up with arrangements using a classic timeline.
Does Cubase work seamlessly and quick on any platform seriously..??

When I was using it on a windows Pc back in the early 00's I swear i spent more time trying to fix computer problems than making any music, I had a Creamware pulsar card, Cubase and Wavelab and a midi controller, this all cost me a small fortune too I might add.. and I was forever trying to sort out kernel errors, driver incompatibilities, system crashes, blue screens blah blah blah...it really was an awful set up to make music on.

I had a copy of Rebirth and Acid 2 on that machine, and I would often close down the crappy cubase and pulsar engines and just play around in those two environments.

I always wanted to use Cubase, as I understood it's environment well, but it just never worked on those pc's...I went across to a mac with a motu firewire after that debacle and have never looked back.

does Cubase work for anyone these days...??
Old 3rd October 2014
  #71
255447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
We are not talking just about rack chains, we are talking about any plugins you put on a track. Rack chain, plugin on the track, or plugin loaded into patchwork it doesn't matter. Ableton does not report the latency to any of the plugins on the track.
Whether this is technically true or not, I have no idea. What I do know is that in actual daily use, in the 10+ years that I have been using 5 different versions of Ableton Live Suite on as many different computer rigs, this has never EVER been an issue for me. I can have as many tracks, plugs, audio files etc. running as the song calls for (25-70 is the norm)... stack racks, custom chains, 5, 10, 20 whatever amount of additional plugins on each single track, groups and mix buss, all running at once, all of the above with automations galore, all triggering off one another etc. and not one single playback, solo, bounce etc. is off its mark or out of time.

The only time I have ever encountered any latency is with midi/hardware bouncing to audio and even that doesn't occur every time... when it does, I line it back up and nudge it to the markers. Easy


EDIT: I would also like to add that this whole notion of one sounding better than the other is total horse pucky. If its good enough for A-list mainstage artists and Grammy winners (of all styles), its good enough for you too.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francos View Post
Whether this is technically true or not, I have no idea. What I do know is that in actual daily use, in the 10+ years that I have been using 5 different versions of Ableton Live Suite on as many different computer rigs, this has never EVER been an issue for me. I can have as many tracks, plugs, audio files etc. running as the song calls for (25-70 is the norm)... stack racks, customs chains, 5, 10, 20 whatever amount of additional plugins on each single track, groups and mix buss, all running at once, all of the above with automations galore, all triggering off one another etc. and not one single playback, solo, bounce etc. is off its mark or out of time.

The only time I have ever encountered any latency is with midi/hardware bouncing to audio and even that doesn't occur every time... when it does, I line it back up and nudge it to the markers. Easy


EDIT: I would also like to add that this whole notion of one sounding better than the other is total horse pucky. If its good enough for A-list mainstage artists and Grammy winners (of all styles), its good enough for you too.
You may not have noticed, but it does happen and the results can be subtle or dramatic depending on your buffer settings, the plugins you use, and how you use Ableton. It's not an issue most people understand, but the majority of the top pros who use Ableton Live as their primary DAW do understand, and they use methods to work around the issues caused by unreported latency. I've used Ableton Live since 2004, and it has taken me up until this year to understand what's going on.

I sent you a PM with more info.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
does Cubase work for anyone these days...??
Cubase Studio 4 has been rock solid for years on Windows XP for me; (2007 adk laptop used just for audio, interface was a firepod and now it's an echo).

Cubase and Ableton Live are by far the most stable major programs I've used for anything. About the only glitch I've seen in Cubase has been with the Valhalla vst demos, and even there it's just a little weirdness at the end of closing the program, no crashes.

The undeniable advantage that Live has is that it's more fun. Session view is such an intuitive way to put a song together.

Someday Ableton will get the whole program inside a custom piece of hardware with touchscreen, pads, and knobs, and that box will take over the world -- a sort of supermutant mpc.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #74
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by percussion boy View Post
Cubase Studio 4 has been rock solid for years on Windows XP for me; (2007 adk laptop used just for audio, interface was a firepod and now it's an echo).

Cubase and Ableton Live are by far the most stable major programs I've used for anything. About the only glitch I've seen in Cubase has been with the Valhalla vst demos, and even there it's just a little weirdness at the end of closing the program, no crashes.
After my experiences with it I find that hard to believe, but hey as I say I abandoned it right before xp was released, I was using win 98 at the time and a lot of people were talking up 2000, so it seems I jumped ship before it got better, but I could never in my wildest dreams go back to anything windows based for music, after using Reason on a Mac...pfffft I have trouble remembering has there has ever been a single hiccup, the work and music has just flowed non stop..

Mavericks lately has some bugs but Reason is not affected, the guys at Propellerhead reall do write some solid code, it's the most reliable software I've ever used for anything...Cubase the least...lol

I could be tempted to have a lite version of Ableton installed for VST plug ins at some point but we shall see..
Old 3rd October 2014
  #75
255447
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
You may not have noticed, but it does happen and the results can be subtle or dramatic depending on your buffer settings, the plugins you use, and how you use Ableton. It's not an issue most people understand, but the majority of the top pros who use Ableton Live as their primary DAW do understand, and they use methods to work around the issues caused by unreported latency. I've used Ableton Live since 2004, and it has taken me up until this year to understand what's going on.

I sent you a PM with more info.
Believe you me, I'm not "most people" But hey, we're all entitled to opinions here and I respect that... I'm not here to argue, just share my personal experience with it. I actually switched from Cubase to Ableton for my main body of work, though still use both at times depending on the collaboration at hand. Why did I switch? Workflow. I get way more things done in a much shorter amount of time with Live. Plain and simple.

IME as a full time 10-15 hour a day in, day out, year after year professional musician/artist/producer/DJ/performer etc. working with the "top pros", a who's who pool of artists in many genres and around the world.. I can assure you that I understand the ins and outs and if Ableton did what you're implying it does, had a less than true, pristine, stellar SQ, I would be the first to jump up and say it sucks and drop it in a heartbeat. The fact is, it doesn't suck or do what you're implying it does. At all. Its the exact opposite -it does what it says on the label. At least, with the way I have it configured anyway (hybrid studio). Set, forget and go to work is what I do. And no, I don't only do song sketches, looping and performing work with it, as some suggest its only good for. Actually, the above would be the least of what I do with it. Does it have flaws? I suppose it depends on how you're using it. But this can apply to any and every DAW...

The bottom line for me is, BOTH are very useful... demo and choose what best gets you from point a to b as you like and stop fussing over non-issue niggles... unless of course you have issues, in which case use cross support to sort it out (it aint ALWAYS Abletons fault!) or ditch it if you cant be bothered and/or find something more suitable for yourself. Good luck
Old 3rd October 2014
  #76
No work flow issues in cubase here and it doesn't look like jail.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #77
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lestermagneto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
I sent you a PM with more info.
If you don't mind bill, please send to me as well. thanks.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
After my experiences with it I find that hard to believe, but hey as I say I abandoned it right before xp was released, I was using win 98 at the time and a lot of people were talking up 2000, so it seems I jumped ship before it got better
I had the misfortune to get into the DAW thing with Win95 and various Cakewalk/Sonar products, so my sympathies.

XP was kind of the point where the PC became a solid option for music production.

Personally I wouldn't judge any company's recent products by what they did under Windows 98. it would be like me in the US getting mad at the English for the War of 1812. Times have changed a little.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #79
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
If you don't mind bill, please send to me as well. thanks.
PM sent.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #80
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For all of Cubase's "features", it is the simple things that really impede workflow IMO - for example, this www.steinberg.net • View topic - Automation suggestion - Do you agree? - every other DAW seems to allow this and you use it 100 times more often in my experience than say Chord Track. Don't quite understand Cubase users who claim it has the best workflow. Most things seem to take 3x the steps. Ableton or Logic on the other hand are built for speed it seems.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #81
Of course this will all be opinion. I went through every daw out and cubase was the best to me. It took longer to learn, but felt worth it. Once you learn any daw you can be efficient. Cubase, for me, was the most fun. I've heard others say it was to hard to learn. I also feel it sounds better. I know that's taboo to say.


You will have to test them in order to know.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
TemporalMix's Avatar
 

Live all the way. Cubase is awesome and, from what I've heard, more stable but I haven't had any problems with Live. Even on a five year old laptop, it pretty much never crashes on me. It did in the early days of Live 9 but not in a long time.

I can make great mixes in it. Editing ANYTHING is extremely easy. I am a huge fan.

If I didn't use Live I would use Cubase though. It's a beast and you can mix surround sound. That's awesome.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #83
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francos View Post
Believe you me, I'm not "most people" But hey, we're all entitled to opinions here and I respect that... I'm not here to argue, just share my personal experience with it. I actually switched from Cubase to Ableton for my main body of work, though still use both at times depending on the collaboration at hand. Why did I switch? Workflow. I get way more things done in a much shorter amount of time with Live. Plain and simple.

IME as a full time 10-15 hour a day in, day out, year after year professional musician/artist/producer/DJ/performer etc. working with the "top pros", a who's who pool of artists in many genres and around the world.. I can assure you that I understand the ins and outs and if Ableton did what you're implying it does, had a less than true, pristine, stellar SQ, I would be the first to jump up and say it sucks and drop it in a heartbeat. The fact is, it doesn't suck or do what you're implying it does. At all. Its the exact opposite -it does what it says on the label. At least, with the way I have it configured anyway (hybrid studio). Set, forget and go to work is what I do. And no, I don't only do song sketches, looping and performing work with it, as some suggest its only good for. Actually, the above would be the least of what I do with it. Does it have flaws? I suppose it depends on how you're using it. But this can apply to any and every DAW...

The bottom line for me is, BOTH are very useful... demo and choose what best gets you from point a to b as you like and stop fussing over non-issue niggles... unless of course you have issues, in which case use cross support to sort it out (it aint ALWAYS Abletons fault!) or ditch it if you cant be bothered and/or find something more suitable for yourself. Good luck
I've already sent you all the info via PM you need to do your own testing. Ableton acknowledges the issue. Compare the test in ableton and cubase and your will see what is happening very clearly.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #84
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francos View Post
Believe you me, I'm not "most people" But hey, we're all entitled to opinions here and I respect that... I'm not here to argue, just share my personal experience with it. I actually switched from Cubase to Ableton for my main body of work, though still use both at times depending on the collaboration at hand. Why did I switch? Workflow. I get way more things done in a much shorter amount of time with Live. Plain and simple.

IME as a full time 10-15 hour a day in, day out, year after year professional musician/artist/producer/DJ/performer etc. working with the "top pros", a who's who pool of artists in many genres and around the world.. I can assure you that I understand the ins and outs and if Ableton did what you're implying it does, had a less than true, pristine, stellar SQ, I would be the first to jump up and say it sucks and drop it in a heartbeat. The fact is, it doesn't suck or do what you're implying it does. At all. Its the exact opposite -it does what it says on the label. At least, with the way I have it configured anyway (hybrid studio). Set, forget and go to work is what I do. And no, I don't only do song sketches, looping and performing work with it, as some suggest its only good for. Actually, the above would be the least of what I do with it. Does it have flaws? I suppose it depends on how you're using it. But this can apply to any and every DAW...

The bottom line for me is, BOTH are very useful... demo and choose what best gets you from point a to b as you like and stop fussing over non-issue niggles... unless of course you have issues, in which case use cross support to sort it out (it aint ALWAYS Abletons fault!) or ditch it if you cant be bothered and/or find something more suitable for yourself. Good luck
ahem...err while you're here Mr pro, how about telling us all how do we get our final mixes loud like commercial grade...surely you must know...
Old 3rd October 2014
  #85
255447
Guest
Might be a good idea to post your testing methods in the thread so that everyone knows what you're talking about and can try it themselves if inclined to do so.. I am not. Don't have the time or patience to figure out whats wrong with something that isn't wrong in the first place If Ableton already acknowledges it as you say (did I miss a link that you posted earlier?), whats with the hush hush PM's anyway?

Back to work fellas...
Old 3rd October 2014
  #86
Here for the gear
 

I have been an fl studio on and off for 15 years, at times using rebirth and at one point an old copy of cubase. I won't lie and say I totally explored the full capabilities of cubase but found the fx and overall sound quality of the finished article better.

I recently got back into making music, predominantly house music, and have been using fl studio 10 as it is all I really know. I have ordered a copy of komplete 8 which I'd ideally like to use with fl as I know the daw.

I've got the chance to get a copy of cubase 5 or albeton 9.1 from a friend & intrigued what I should pick up. I like the workflow of fl, is there a need to change? I found fx pretty lame on fl but as I'm getting komplete 8 this will negate this no?. My Internet connection is non existent so cannot dl trial versions. Any advice?

Fwiw, I use an mpk49 and looking to get a korg volca bass. I find putting loops together relatively easy on fl, I did try an old copy of albeton for all of an hour or so, with no tutorial I literally couldn't find my way round it, but I have more time now to educate myself on the chosen platform.

Thanks in advance.
I
Old 3rd October 2014
  #87
255447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
ahem...err while you're here Mr pro, how about telling us all how do we get our final mixes loud like commercial grade...surely you must know...
turn up the volume.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #88
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francos View Post
Might be a good idea to post your testing methods in the thread so that everyone knows what you're talking about and can try it themselves if inclined to do so.. I am not. Don't have the time or patience to figure out whats wrong with something that isn't wrong in the first place If Ableton already acknowledges it as you say (did I miss a link that you posted earlier?), whats with the hush hush PM's anyway?

Back to work fellas...
Yeah, it's in the Ableton Live manual:

Quote:
Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay:

Automation (see Chapter 19) is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early.

Tempo-synced effects and other devices that get timing information from Live’s internal clock may sound out of sync if they are placed in a device chain after devices which cause delay.
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/wo...y-compensation

All 3rd party plugins and Max 4 Live devices cause a delay in Ableton Live, and that delay is equal in samples to your buffer setting. In addition, if the 3rd party plugin adds latency then total latency for that plugin is equal to your buffer setting + the additional latency of the plugin.

I hope that helps.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
We are not talking just about rack chains, we are talking about any plugins you put on a track. Rack chain, plugin on the track, or plugin loaded into patchwork it doesn't matter. Ableton does not report the latency to any of the plugins on the track.
i never use any 3rd party any way....why even bother with it. if youre one of many who buy a new plugin every week because you think it will make you a pro..or if you need 50 meters telling you 50 useless statisitcs as the sound is playing..then you wont fit with ableton. if you like making music....you will fit with ableton.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #90
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francos View Post
Come on man... childish jabs like that are exactly why these discussions never work out and "pros" like me usually wont get involved.

But despite your rudeness, to answer your silly question anyway so I can get out of here... start at the source, gain staging, automation, panning, micro editing, compression, EQ, transient design and limiting. Done
take it easy mate, my post was clearly tongue in cheek and a bit of fun...did you not see the cheeky policeman icon..??
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