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My Impressions of the Integra 7 after a few weeks Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 26th August 2017
  #301
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choond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
This is just plain and simply incorrect propaganda based on ignorance.
I disagree. This is what he's referring to:

``First, SuperNATURAL doesn’t use sample looping. We’ve also developed technology that creates models of the characteristics and responsive aspects of each instrument. The SuperNATURAL engine handles how those parameters react to performance dynamics and nuances from a controller such as a keyboard, just as they would in the original instrument.

As a simple example, volume and brightness in SuperNATURAL instruments respond to nuances in playing force without any velocity switching and inherent stepping sounds between sample layers. SuperNATURAL goes much deeper. Looking at the orchestral strings scenario mentioned earlier, SuperNATURAL modeling translates the player’s natural use of playing styles such as legato and staccato into appropriate variations in bowing technique and associated sound. Further, use of a pedal or switch will seamlessly invoke tremolo or pizzicato styles.''

What is SuperNATURAL Technology? - Roland U.S. Blog
Old 26th August 2017
  #302
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyFoster View Post
I disagree ; I had one for ages, and eventually sold it due to non-use. My Omnisphere, Keyscape, Zebra, Diva, Komplete 10 Ultimate and Logic Pro synths blow the Integra-7 away. So glad I got rid of that overpriced, overhyped thing.
Can you get portable 128 polyphony at 24/96 with your VST setup? What about surround sound encoding? Did you use the external USB-based editors?
Old 26th August 2017
  #303
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JohnnyFoster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycall View Post
Can you get portable 128 polyphony at 24/96 with your VST setup? What about surround sound encoding? Did you use the external USB-based editors?
Yes ; with Kontakt, Omnisphere and others, I can indeed get 128 polyphony ; multiple instances of 128 polyphony in fact, at 24/96 if I choose. All from my Mac Mini and Logic Pro X. Surround ? Of course. Logic delivers it all and in many formats. I did use the external editors with Integra-7, which then made me question why I was using an external editor when I could just be using a VST/AU plugin and save the bouncing of audio step when recording in my DAW. Bottom line : if Integra was that big of a jump over my VSTs, I would still have it today and be using it over all the plugs I have. I don't, and I realized that Integra was never going to approach the sound quality and ease of editing that I have with my plugs. That's why I am all the way ITB.
Old 26th August 2017
  #304
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by choond View Post
I disagree. This is what he's referring to:

``First, SuperNATURAL doesn’t use sample looping. We’ve also developed technology that creates models of the characteristics and responsive aspects of each instrument. The SuperNATURAL engine handles how those parameters react to performance dynamics and nuances from a controller such as a keyboard, just as they would in the original instrument.

As a simple example, volume and brightness in SuperNATURAL instruments respond to nuances in playing force without any velocity switching and inherent stepping sounds between sample layers. SuperNATURAL goes much deeper. Looking at the orchestral strings scenario mentioned earlier, SuperNATURAL modeling translates the player’s natural use of playing styles such as legato and staccato into appropriate variations in bowing technique and associated sound. Further, use of a pedal or switch will seamlessly invoke tremolo or pizzicato styles.''

What is SuperNATURAL Technology? - Roland U.S. Blog
That sounds like typical Roland marketing malarkey. Again, I've heard tons of Integra demos. I was considering one. I didn't hear anything that sounded as detailed and nuanced as a really good Kontakt library. I also think the Integra VA engine sounds pretty meh compared to a VST like Oddity 2.

Go play with your Integra. Maybe I'll get one when they, like all similar boxes before it, start selling for $400 when the new UltraNatural engine gets released.
Old 26th August 2017
  #305
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manalishi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by choond View Post
I disagree. This is what he's referring to:

``First, SuperNATURAL doesn’t use sample looping. We’ve also developed technology that creates models of the characteristics and responsive aspects of each instrument. The SuperNATURAL engine handles how those parameters react to performance dynamics and nuances from a controller such as a keyboard, just as they would in the original instrument.

As a simple example, volume and brightness in SuperNATURAL instruments respond to nuances in playing force without any velocity switching and inherent stepping sounds between sample layers. SuperNATURAL goes much deeper. Looking at the orchestral strings scenario mentioned earlier, SuperNATURAL modeling translates the player’s natural use of playing styles such as legato and staccato into appropriate variations in bowing technique and associated sound. Further, use of a pedal or switch will seamlessly invoke tremolo or pizzicato styles.''

What is SuperNATURAL Technology? - Roland U.S. Blog
And some synth players are going to find that awkward to use. Because - like a guitar, for example - your playing style creates extra sounds or movement, like the momentary fret scrape between notes. Sometimes you want these (which is why a single fret scrape sample is usually included in lesser ROMplers), and sometimes you don't - just as sometimes a real guitarist tries to avoid all non-note sounds to record a super-clean guitar track.

I love this aspect of the I7, because it forces you to learn a technique to master the instrument response that Roland's engineers devised, and not just hit 61 trigger switches.

Dear Roland/Korg/Yamaha, more instruments like this! Please ignore the evangelical ITBers (who find the actual ITB forum on GS so boring that they can't help straying into hardware threads trying to make converts).
Old 26th August 2017
  #306
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Muser's Avatar
from what I understand, supernatural fills in the gaps between multisamples by synthesizing the in-betweens and this is what allows for the application of various kinds of behavioural modelling. it's currently expensive in terms of CPU, which is probably part of the reason why the high end drum kit is expensive. aside from the fact that Roland in that case also have started introducing digital sensing pads.

so Roland will likely tend to focus on specific instruments and mark them out for special attention. more work on choosing the initial samples and number of samples. Piano and drums will be two no doubt. I'd expect that as they go along, they will work on other instrument behavioural models, when they determine the memory and CPU costs allow. and the market will take the price point for the unit.
Old 26th August 2017
  #307
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
from what I understand, supernatural fills in the gaps between multisamples by synthesizing the in-betweens and this is what allows for the application of various kinds of behavioural modelling. it's currently expensive in terms of CPU, which is probably part of the reason why the high end drum kit is expensive. aside from the fact that Roland in that case also have started introducing digital sensing pads.

so Roland will likely tend to focus on specific instruments and mark them out for special attention. more work on choosing the initial samples and number of samples. Piano and drums will be two no doubt. I'd expect that as they go along, they will work on other instrument behavioural models, when they determine the memory and CPU costs allow. and the market will take the price point for the unit.
Roland's latest Stage-Piano RD-2000 (https://www.roland.com/global/products/rd-2000/) uses the purely on physical modeling based acoustic piano engine (without the use of any samples) from their V-Piano (https://www.roland.com/us/products/v-piano/) and several SuperNATURAL-Acoustic engines plus the SuperNATURAL-Synth engine for the rest, like E-Pianos, Clavs, Orchestral and Synths.
Old 26th August 2017
  #308
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manalishi's Avatar
Is this related to the synth tech in the ARX boards for the Fantom G? Not sure if they are modelling and I don't think Roland used the "SuperNatural" name for them, but the boards aren't ROMs. I remember that you get a new synth, dedicated instrument interfaces and extra polyphony when you add them.
Old 26th August 2017
  #309
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
Is this related to the synth tech in the ARX boards for the Fantom G? Not sure if they are modelling and I don't think Roland used the "SuperNatural" name for them, but the boards aren't ROMs. I remember that you get a new synth, dedicated instrument interfaces and extra polyphony when you add them.
The ARX boards were the precursor of what Roland later called their SuperNATURAL-Acoustic engines.

Old 26th August 2017
  #310
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves View Post
Roland's latest Stage-Piano RD-2000 (https://www.roland.com/global/products/rd-2000/) uses the purely on physical modeling based acoustic piano engine (without the use of any samples) from their V-Piano (https://www.roland.com/us/products/v-piano/) and several SuperNATURAL-Acoustic engines plus the SuperNATURAL-Synth engine for the rest, like E-Pianos, Clavs, Orchestral and Synths.
I tried a V-Piano in a shop a few times. they had it under some stairs and with some speakers. interestingly, it sounded pretty horrid. but recently they moved it out next to an RD-2000. suddenly the V-Piano sounded great and the RD seemed to be poor in comparison. I figured I needed to figure out what was going on there. I simply tried the stock RD sounds against the V.

I would need to check if there was some issue to be honest. but it made me wonder, if the V sounded so good, why would it be in a place that made it sound horrid. unless it just sounded too good. I've no idea how much of this is true without testing. the thing to test would be, if the V-Piano significantly outperforms the various other systems in a variety of meaningful ways. the price of the V-Piano potentially still reflects the expense of all the realtime processing which generates the sound.

the V-Piano isn't supernatural. it's total modelling.
Old 26th August 2017
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
[...] the V-Piano isn't supernatural. it's total modelling.
Yes, that's what I wrote. The Acoustic Piano on the RD-2000 also uses that physical modeling engine, derived from the V-Piano, and uses absolutely no samples. Only the E-Pianos and Clavs, etc. on the RD-2000 use the SuperNATURAL-Acoustic engines, which are a combination of samples and modeling.
Old 26th August 2017
  #312
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves View Post
Yes, that's what I wrote. The Acoustic Piano on the RD-2000 also uses that physical modeling engine, derived from the V-Piano, and uses absolutely no samples. Only the E-Pianos and Clavs, etc. on the RD-2000 use the SuperNATURAL-Acoustic engines, which are a combination of samples and modeling.
I see. I'd assume its possible that a number of samples in supernatural technology, are derived from Roland models. I'm also assuming that two or three drums in the flagship V-Kit are also modelling. whereas the other voices might not be.
Old 26th August 2017
  #313
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goony's Avatar
I love my FA-06 which uses the same engine as the Integra. Great sounds, just wish was an editor for the FA like there is for the integra.
Old 26th August 2017
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I see. I'd assume its possible that a number of samples in supernatural technology, are derived from Roland models. I'm also assuming that two or three drums in the flagship V-Kit are also modelling. whereas the other voices might not be.
Useful video about some technical details of the SN-Piano, which is included in the Integra-7, JP-80/50, FA-06/07/08, RD-800, etc.:

Old 26th August 2017
  #315
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves View Post
Useful video about some technical details of the SN-Piano, which is included in the Integra-7, JP-80/50, FA-06/07/08, RD-800, etc.:
be interesting to see if, or when they start introducing the V-Piano engine at lower price points. possibly in the next few years.
Old 26th August 2017
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I tried a V-Piano in a shop a few times
How was the action on the V? I bought the RD-700gx when they came out thinking I'd adapt to its action .. but I never have .. its action is much heavier than my 1960 Steinway Grand Model M, and only after I had had it a while and went to play some Chopin preludes on the gx did I realize its keys are actually bigger than my Steinway, and I couldn't reach keys on the gx that I can on the Steinway. I've also had two bouts of tendonitis now from attempting Chopin Etudes on the gx Sounds and sound technology come and go, but a good action is timeless. So I'm kinda loosley on the look out for a gx replacement.
Old 26th August 2017
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudswimmer View Post
How was the action on the V? I bought the RD-700gx when they came out thinking I'd adapt to its action .. but I never have .. its action is much heavier than my 1960 Steinway Grand Model M, and only after I had had it a while and went to play some Chopin preludes on the gx did I realize its keys are actually bigger than my Steinway, and I couldn't reach keys on the gx that I can on the Steinway. I've also had two bouts of tendonitis now from attempting Chopin Etudes on the gx Sounds and sound technology come and go, but a good action is timeless. So I'm kinda loosley on the look out for a gx replacement.
I was at NAMM this year and 1# on my plate was to find the most realistic grand piano action obtainable in a portable footprint. I tried every electronic facsimile offering by every major vender including the Ravenworks tuned and modified Kawai VPC1. I was able to test every major acoustic grand and baby grand manufacturer's offerings that were present at the convention, then bounce off those to the electronic offerings.

The most realistic and beautifully balanced action I came across was the Roland FP-90 with its newer PHA-50 keybed.
Old 26th August 2017
  #318
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudswimmer View Post
How was the action on the V? I bought the RD-700gx when they came out thinking I'd adapt to its action .. but I never have .. its action is much heavier than my 1960 Steinway Grand Model M, and only after I had had it a while and went to play some Chopin preludes on the gx did I realize its keys are actually bigger than my Steinway, and I couldn't reach keys on the gx that I can on the Steinway. I've also had two bouts of tendonitis now from attempting Chopin Etudes on the gx Sounds and sound technology come and go, but a good action is timeless. So I'm kinda loosley on the look out for a gx replacement.
you'd probably be better asking other peoples advice on actions. the roland uprights I can say I did like. they may have been the FP types Mulcahy is alluding to, but I'm not exactly sure. from what I can remember, I think I found other actions I personally preferred. I tend to prefer the sounds of Yamaha's but a couple of Roland's I like. those uprights again I liked the sound of. however, the V is very programable. so there is that.
Old 27th August 2017
  #319
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
And some synth players are going to find that awkward to use. Because - like a guitar, for example - your playing style creates extra sounds or movement, like the momentary fret scrape between notes. Sometimes you want these (which is why a single fret scrape sample is usually included in lesser ROMplers), and sometimes you don't - just as sometimes a real guitarist tries to avoid all non-note sounds to record a super-clean guitar track.

I love this aspect of the I7, because it forces you to learn a technique to master the instrument response that Roland's engineers devised, and not just hit 61 trigger switches.

Dear Roland/Korg/Yamaha, more instruments like this! Please ignore the evangelical ITBers (who find the actual ITB forum on GS so boring that they can't help straying into hardware threads trying to make converts).
I don't give a flying f if anyone converts, but I do mind when b.s. gets bandied about. On either side. If you'll notice in threads like the last Diva shoot-out, I was quick to say that there are many types of sounds that Diva isn't as well suited for as a good hardware analog. Also, the ITB forum here isn't really music orientated, and from my meager reading comprehension, "electronic music instruments and electronic music production" clearly encompasses computers. All a CPU really is is an ultra miniaturized array of transistors anyway. Yeah, I know, they work very differently than an analog, but not really different than an Integra. There is no technical reason that there could not be a perfect 1:1 Integra plugin. In fact, I wonder if the RolandCloud ROMpler plugins are exactly that in segmented chunks.

So, I know people are quick to look for a fight and pick sides, but really the only side I ever pick is the side of truth, justice and... well that last part, I'll leave out considering it's current state.
Old 27th August 2017
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
I was at NAMM this year and 1# on my plate was to find the most realistic grand piano action obtainable in a portable footprint. I tried every electronic facsimile offering by every major vender including the Ravenworks tuned and modified Kawai VPC1. I was able to test every major acoustic grand and baby grand manufacturer's offerings that were present at the convention, then bounce off those to the electronic offerings.

The most realistic and beautifully balanced action I came across was the Roland FP-90 with its newer PHA-50 keybed.
Thats interesting you mention the Roland FP, in the 90's I worked at Jim's Music Center in So.Cal. At the time I was still pretty heavy into classical piano, and would go to work an hour early before we opened and practice on a Roland FP (I wanna say FP-7 hmm?) Anyway even though we had Yamaha upright acoustics in our lesson rooms, I prefered the Roland FP as its action was actually closer to my Steinway Model M than the Yamaha acoustics :D Glad to hear Roland is still Rockin the FP,s. I bought a Kawai MP-8 a couple weeks before the Roland RD-700gx, actually went through three of them before I gave up because of quality control issues .. but the action was very very nice on them (thats when you wern't slicing your fingers open on the sharp plastic edges

Last edited by cloudswimmer; 27th August 2017 at 02:26 AM.. Reason: Over enthisiastic typing lol
Old 27th August 2017
  #321
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EvilDragon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mulcahy View Post
The most realistic and beautifully balanced action I came across was the Roland FP-90 with its newer PHA-50 keybed.
...which is the same keybed that's in RD-2000.
Old 5th September 2017
  #322
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

I can get an integra for 1000 euros ( europe ), good price ?
Really want to take the bite , but deep down I have a feeling I am gonna be dissapointed by the va side .
Having a nord modular and reaktor 6 , I somehow thinks the integra will fail in that department ( still have an old yammie sampler a4000 )

I have buyers remorse before actual buying , still....I'm gonna do it
Old 5th September 2017
  #323
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Could someone just post some samples of saw waves trough the supernatural filters with low/medium/high resonace and some filter tweaking .
Would be much appreciated .
Old 5th September 2017
  #324
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I can get an integra for 1000 euros ( europe ), good price ?
Really want to take the bite , but deep down I have a feeling I am gonna be dissapointed by the va side .
Having a nord modular and reaktor 6 , I somehow thinks the integra will fail in that department ( still have an old yammie sampler a4000 )

I have buyers remorse before actual buying , still....I'm gonna do it
Turn off your targeting computer and trust your feelings, Luke...

One thing I've learned is that when buying something based on demo tracks, my instinct is rarely that off, especially in an instrument that's been around a long time and been fully explored by users. If you're feeling like you'll dislike the VA at this point, you probably will. I don't think that's the real point of the Integra, though. Maybe you want the System 8.

I think there's a weird divide in Roland. You've got the ROMpler/Supernatural/V camp, and now the Aira/Boutique camp. From the outside, they don't seem to know about each other. The JD's try a little to bridge that gap, but IMO, they don't quite make it. Imagine an Integra synth that also had the System 8's engine on board, but f that only being able to load a single plug out at a time. Let me put a Jupiter 8 filter on a SH2 osc or on a PCM based sound. Mix and match. That would truly be a powerhouse.
Old 5th September 2017
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
...which is the same keybed that's in RD-2000.
Yep, I think their rep told me the FP-90 is a steal, that it's keybed is featured more in their high end digital grand series. I didn't know the RD-2000 also featured it. Albeit a more expensive option (way more features though) I'll keep an eye out for a deal on it also thanks.
Old 5th September 2017
  #326
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choond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Could someone just post some samples of saw waves trough the supernatural filters with low/medium/high resonace and some filter tweaking .
Would be much appreciated .
I wouldn't recommend buying an Integra if my main interest was filter sweeps. I find roland VA's/romplers fairly weak in that area. I'd recommend looking into some analog synths for that kind of sound. Even a korg volca will knock your socks off by comparison.

Integra is more of a composer's / players tool...and doubles as wicked drum machine that can layer your drums with effects, surround sound, with multiple outs as well.
Old 5th September 2017
  #327
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rotundness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Could someone just post some samples of saw waves trough the supernatural filters with low/medium/high resonace and some filter tweaking .
Would be much appreciated .

https://soundcloud.com/rotundness/i7-supersaws

Starts with the filter wide open and no resonance. Then some cutoff tweaks without resonance. The resonance is added incrementally. Did this really fast. No FX.
Old 5th September 2017
  #328
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choond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotundness View Post
https://soundcloud.com/rotundness/i7-supersaws

Starts with the filter wide open and no resonance. Then some cutoff tweaks without resonance. The resonance is added incrementally. Did this really fast. No FX.
Good work. I love that OB6 demo you did!
Old 6th September 2017
  #329
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by choond View Post
I wouldn't recommend buying an Integra if my main interest was filter sweeps. I find roland VA's/romplers fairly weak in that area. I'd recommend looking into some analog synths for that kind of sound. Even a korg volca will knock your socks off by comparison.

Integra is more of a composer's / players tool...and doubles as wicked drum machine that can layer your drums with effects, surround sound, with multiple outs as well.
NOrd modular and reaktor serves those duties pretty well

Main reason I want an integra is for the huge amount of acoustic instruments , and ofcourse I want to delve deep into it's structure for creating sounds from scratch ( been 20 years since I delved into a roland synth ...xp 80 )

What that a rexording of a supernatural synth tone ?
Not really impressed , plastic sounding resonance .

Still think I am going for it
Old 6th September 2017
  #330
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choond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
NOrd modular and reaktor serves those duties pretty well

Main reason I want an integra is for the huge amount of acoustic instruments , and ofcourse I want to delve deep into it's structure for creating sounds from scratch ( been 20 years since I delved into a roland synth ...xp 80 )

What that a rexording of a supernatural synth tone ?
Not really impressed , plastic sounding resonance .

Still think I am going for it
Great, its good to know the weaknesses as well as strengths before buying.
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