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Why does older analog synths sounds better than newer? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 28th July 2014
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderkyss View Post
What's "Elements"?
video is locked from embed... but follow link...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8X9...GlCQpdX94alEnA

Love this guy...
Old 28th July 2014
  #152
Old 28th July 2014
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
It looks like you miss the whole point (or that I misunderstand you): The whole thing with older analog synths is the sound, period. The rest of no limits of pony tricks is taken care of by modern, powerful computers and sophisticated software that makes old synths fly high, somewhere over the rainbow, if needed.
Don't you think the tedious process of sampling, cutting, twisting and warping dismisses all the advantages of an accessible synth interface? On the other hand I enjoy the thought of using a cracked copy of Fruity Loops to mangle a sample from $10,000 synth

Yet I find a fixed-architecture analog synth the most boring source to sample. Using e.g. field recording, Csound or Pure Data as source material results in much more interesting textures. Analog just sounds boooring. Whenever I get GAS for any analog synths I just listen my old tapes from around '98 when I was a total noob, only had SH-101, Juno-106 and TR-707 and thought analog was the shizz! I realize there's really nothing more I could do with those instruments and I would be ashamed to still be doing that same old thing after all these years. Now someone of course mentions artists like Com Truise but all the post processing, slicing & dicing etc. is actually everything I hate about modern electronic music (in addition to EDM).
Old 28th July 2014
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Lol...I was doing the "velocity to modulate filter cutoff" thing back in 1991 on my Emu Emax II (Velocity to Filter in the menu) so I wouldn't go so far as to call that gimmick "forward thinking"!
My point, which your example verifies, was how extremely primitive these 'classic' synths are. I took the velocity modulation as an example because it is something I routinely do with my Nord Lead 2 (with push of a button) without even thinking about it. For someone who comes from today's software world it may not even cross his/her mind that a feature like that would be missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I think the Oberheim SEM remake sounds pretty amazing. I have one of those.
That's one of the few analog monos I'm personally interested in (the patchpanel/pro versions).
Old 28th July 2014
  #155
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Seccione's Avatar
 

"Better" is such a subjective term.

Maybe the sound of older analogs just works with the style of music some people are producing?

Right tool for the job, right?
Old 28th July 2014
  #156
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I think they start to sound better a short time after they go out of production.
Old 28th July 2014
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Most of the people that i know, including myself prefer the sound of (THIS synth) versus the sound of (THAT synth).

When did DSI Mopho came out? In 2008.
When did Elements came out? In 2014.

So it definitely must be nostalgia then. Wait. My nostalgia for what? 2014?

This whole synth nostalgia thing is somehow an insult to people who decide to choose better sounding gear (of which lot happens to be old) basically saying they are deaf, but very nostalgic. (??)

Beside being disrespectful towards other people, the idea is a total nonsense.
..right and most of the guys that i know, including myself prefer the looks of THIS girl versus the looks of THAT girl

I mean c'mon Don.. you really think that's a fair comparison??! who's insulting who now...

The topic isn't about High-end gear vs low-end gear choices.. plenty of threads on that already (not keen on revisiting them either) but it's about classic vintage analogs.. versus their modern equivalent.. like a Prophet-5 vs Prophet-8/12.. Model D vs Voyager.. 808/303 vs Miami/TT-03.. etc

I also don't understand why/how you could be offended by the notion of nostalgia when talking about vintage equipment. it seems like an obvious factor to me, even if it isn't the only one. most modern analogs sound current.. most vintage analogs sound retro.. that's what we're discussing and the reason why we tend to gravitate one way or the other..

Now I fully realise and agree that you don't pick up an OB-X for the sole purpose of covering 'Jump' like someone suggested.. now that's absurd.. and surely you could do speed metal with one or do some hip-hop with a CR-78 & Synthi ..but you can't fully dismiss the influence of certain records/artists/genres on popular vintage gear choices/uses..
Old 28th July 2014
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
I also don't understand why/how you could be offended by the notion of nostalgia when talking about vintage equipment. it seems like an obvious factor to me, even if it isn't the only one. most modern analogs sound current.. most vintage analogs sound retro.. that's what we're discussing and the reason why we tend to gravitate one way or the other..
The potentially offensive part is the fact that it implies in the listener an inability to separate any nostalgia from what the thing actually sounds like, and also implies that the actual sound isn't 'the thing', when to many it is. Like they didn't know any better and as long as it's old it is perceived as good. That's is in fact pretty insulting, as it basically calls you an idiot.
Old 28th July 2014
  #159
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^ it seems like there is a misunderstanding here with the notion of 'nostalgia' .. reducing it to "old=good" is indeed idiotic, but that's not what i mean.. there are plenty of ****ty old equipment i wouldn't touch with a 7-ft pole & i don't buy vinyl because it makes me look cool.. there is of course a generation of kids out there that are into analog equipment for the 'cool factor'.. and let's face it there is an 'analog train' going on.. but again that's not what i mean by 'nostalgia factor'.. i mean that some of us associate the sound of vintage gear to a time period, a specific artist or entire music genre and that can be a decisive factor both good AND bad when judging equipment... like most people associate and relegate the TB-303 to acid.. others can't stand the Dx-7 because it reminds them of awful 80's ballads... that doesn't mean that one can't be objective when judging a synth, and should certainly keep an open mind about both vintage & modern equipment.. but nostalgia is a powerful emotion imo..
Old 28th July 2014
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderkyss View Post
Is that the Analog Prophet clutching an M-Audio Axiom in your avatar?
Correct. OT, and I won't to open that can of worms, but I found the Axiom (especially the third gen, Axiom Pro) to have a a little better quality than most of MIDI keyboards, sturdy built with good keybed and key resistance. Have a little weakness to buy too many MIDI keyboards and controllers...

To stay to the topic, IMHO at least the keyboards (keybed and key action) is superior in the newer analog synths vs older. The keys of my Moog Voyager (built by CME) are wonderful and it's actually my main keyboard right now in my studio (since OS 3.6 that Moog kindly sent me, and cc64 now can be applied to the Env Gate input).
Old 28th July 2014
  #161
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I like the fact these days that their are these modern cheaper equivalents, take my set-up for example...

Originally wanted the sounds of a Prophet 5, TR-808, TR-909, TR-303, Korg MS-10, Juno-6, Pro-1, DX-7 or DX-100, CZ-101, Other Vintage Drum Machines.

Ended up buying Prophet 08, Yocto 808 Clone, TR-8(For 909), Bass Bot TT-303, Korg MS-20 Mini, Juno-106, Bass Station II, System-1, DX-21, CZ-101, Spark 2/Aly James Lab VST's.

Their may be differences to the originals, but to me it doesn't matter....my set-up cost a fraction of the price of buying up the original gear and I am happy.
Old 28th July 2014
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
^ it seems like there is a misunderstanding here with the notion of 'nostalgia' .. reducing it to "old=good" is indeed idiotic, but that's not what i mean.. there are plenty of ****ty old equipment i wouldn't touch with a 7-ft pole & i don't buy vinyl because it makes me look cool.. there is of course a generation of kids out there that are into analog equipment for the 'cool factor'.. and let's face it there is an 'analog train' going on.. but again that's not what i mean by 'nostalgia factor'.. i mean that some of us associate the sound of vintage gear to a time period, a specific artist or entire music genre and that can be a decisive factor both good AND bad when judging equipment... like most people associate and relegate the TB-303 to acid.. others can't stand the Dx-7 because it reminds them of awful 80's ballads... that doesn't mean that one can't be objective when judging a synth, and should certainly keep an open mind about both vintage & modern equipment.. but nostalgia is a powerful emotion imo..
Im not a psychology expert that knows all about nostalgia as phenomena (just a Musician and Media Teacher in the area of PsychoAcostic targeting producers, directors and sound engineers in the area of Movie and TV - the word nostalgia is not to find in that vocabulary), but EDGEK8D is. Listen to GS's Dr Phil:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
There are undeniable, well documented effects of nostalgia. Our emotional brain has incredible power. It does things, and creates experiences and realities without us even knowing it. Also well documented, the effects of purchase price, rarity, public opinion, and other information regarding our procurement of such objects be it classic cars, an old Victorian home, or an old synthesizer.

There is an ongoing theme lately here on gearslutz that people seem to think that they are above the basic psychological practices that all people partake in. Everyone seems to take offense that anyone would suggest that it may be possible for one to be influenced by such a thing as nostalgia or confirmation bias. It is not a weakness, it is HUMAN.

I have a degree in Psych so I try not to cram this stuff down people's throats. But no one, and I mean no one, is immune their own human psychology.

You are right, many would say that the classics sound better. I would say so too, for the most part. I'm 36 and grew up listening to Pink Floyd, Depeche Mode, and lots of other 80's synth music.

But that doesn't mean that is is better. How do we even define better? Human choice, opinion, which is something that is confounded by almost endless life experiences that we cannot measure individually.

Yeah, most if the old stuff sounds better. But what is better? It isn't very concrete.

Nostalgia is most certainly not nonsense and is shaped by our everyday life.
Old 28th July 2014
  #163
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xanax's Avatar
^ i don't think it takes a degree in psych to understand such a basic concept but indeed some fellows around here seem to not get it or at least let their egos get in the way.. this is GearSlutz so any kind of rationality sort of flies out the window when trying to explain causes of their gear fetish.. we spend thousands of dollars on outdated equipment because we have great taste, superior listening capabilities and they are mighty fine instruments that are paramount to our artistic ambitions.. anything else is idiotic nonsense
Old 28th July 2014
  #164
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
but nostalgia is a powerful emotion imo..
...that plays absolutely no role in synthesizer i chose to like. I judge a synth by its sound, not by date stamped on the the back of the unit.
Old 28th July 2014
  #165
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Before the subject derail too much: I've got the impression of, when reading posts in this thread, that older components were not that good. Is it use of too good components today, that are too accurate, that leaves out the small differences in the sound that made the sound of older analog synths? I'm trying to understand why the differences.
Old 28th July 2014
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
...that plays absolutely no role in synthesizer i chose to like. I judge a synth by its sound, not by date stamped on the the back of the unit.
Old 28th July 2014
  #167
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but again you are missing the point don.. we get it, you judge a synth by the way it sounds.. but the question is why do you favour the sound of that old moog rather then the new one (or vice versa)? what is the criteria that makes one sound better/worst to you?
Old 28th July 2014
  #168
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
but the question is why do you favour the sound of that old moog rather then the new one (or vice versa)?
My friend, i don't favor the old. That part got stuck with you and for some reason doesn't want to come out. Anyway here's an example: I favor a synthesizer built in the year 2014 versus a synthesizer built 1978. In this case Macbeth Elements vs Roland SH7. The criteria: VCO, VCF, VCA.

And did i said i don't care about ELP, Wendy Carlos, Rick Wakeman. Can't name a signle album about them. TBH I don't give a phuck about them.
Old 28th July 2014
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
but again you are missing the point don.. we get it, you judge a synth by the way it sounds.. but the question is why do you favour the sound of that old moog rather then the new one (or vice versa)? what is the criteria that makes one sound better/worst to you?
Concerning newer Moogs:

Good question. First of all it depends on:
- Personality. Older instruments has different personality. Some personalities fast become friends and stay friends for life while other personalities clash. My personality draw near to synths with special personalities and become an extension of my soul, expressed by music.

Regarding the sound I like
- The bite of the tone
- The dynamic
- The more correct phase
- The fidelity
- The claws of the midrange
- The transient attack
- The slight oscillator phasing
- The dist in of the filters and components


Concerning newer Moogs:

- Programmable
- No hazel
- New technology integrated with modern DAWs etc
- Good quality of keyboard
- Still sounds awesome
- New is new (like new cars)


I sold my old Minimoog and bought a Voyager, the pros are after all more than the cons. No more hazel and non stop expensive service as different old components dies. And it's programmable. When found a great sound on the old Mini I had it for months due to if I changed it, it was gone fore ever (even the slightest change made it different). And different days the same sound sounded different due to temperature, moister and temperament. I don't miss that part. But I miss the sound itself.
Old 28th July 2014
  #170
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OP is correct old synths sound better

I'll be having a bonfire and burning all my new synths ASAP

the new synths have NOTHING to offer at all and my moog prodigy does a better supersaw rave lead than any of your VA nonsense

also my ms20 has far superior patch storing functions than my supernova

this is basically a ridiculous , circular discussion which im afraid makes you all look a bit silly
Old 28th July 2014
  #171
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"I think the early designs - the SEM, the OB-1, the OB-X, and the OB-Xa - have somewhat better sound than the OB-8 and the instruments that followed it. I think that's because the sound of the earlier designs is dirtier in subtle ways, and therefore seems to have more guts. The OB-8 is a more perfect design. The autotune routine tunes the oscillaters more perfectly. But the sound is clean...too clean."

Tom Oberheim
Old 28th July 2014
  #172
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
My friend, i don't favor the old. That part got stuck in you and for some reason doesn't want to come out. Anyway here's an example: I favor a synthesizer built in the year 2014 versus a synthesizer built 1978. In this case Macbeth Elements vs Roland SH7. The criteria: VCO, VCF, VCA.
OK you're avatar was misleading me to believe otherwise but fair enough now we're getting somewhere.. but would you mind elaborating on what makes the VCO, VCF, VCA on the MacBeth sound better then on the SH7 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
And did i said i don't care about ELP, Wendy Carlos, Rick Wakeman. Can't name a signle album about them. TBH I don't give a phuck about them.
Well in that case I'll go even further... I never even heard of those 3 before visiting this site
Old 28th July 2014
  #173
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamprecision View Post
OP is correct old synths sound better

I'll be having a bonfire and burning all my new synths ASAP

the new synths have NOTHING to offer at all and my moog prodigy does a better supersaw rave lead than any of your VA nonsense

also my ms20 has far superior patch storing functions than my supernova

this is basically a ridiculous , circular discussion which im afraid makes you all look a bit silly
Indeed ridiculous. Comparing VA synths in thread about analog synths.
Old 28th July 2014
  #174
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John Difool's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamprecision View Post
OP is correct old synths sound better

I'll be having a bonfire and burning all my new synths ASAP

the new synths have NOTHING to offer at all and my moog prodigy does a better supersaw rave lead than any of your VA nonsense

also my ms20 has far superior patch storing functions than my supernova

this is basically a ridiculous , circular discussion which im afraid makes you all look a bit silly
It certainly made you look silly
Old 28th July 2014
  #175
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
OK you're avatar was misleading me to believe otherwise but fair enough now we're getting somewhere.. but would you mind elaborating on what makes the VCO, VCF, VCA on the MacBeth sound better then on the SH7 ?
I'm just a random Joe from the web, totally irrelevant to anything.

Why i prefer sound A vs sound B is a matter of taste. The only part i'm trying to explain is that i don't care for the manufacturing date. I look for sound that feels best for my ears. i.e. single Macbeth VCO in PWM eats all 4 VCOs that play at once in my MonoPoly. After that i've heard the creamy VCF and was speechless for the rest of the demo time. I've never heard anything sounding like that.

There are NO and there were NO synths in the past that sounded like Macbeth. So whoever points to nostalgia factor is a complete clod. (not looking at you xanax)
Old 28th July 2014
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post
but again you are missing the point don.. we get it, you judge a synth by the way it sounds.. but the question is why do you favour the sound of that old moog rather then the new one (or vice versa)? what is the criteria that makes one sound better/worst to you?
He's favoring 'vintage tone', a modern synth can have a vintage tone. Whether it is his sub conscience that favours that sound because it has been his 'listening education' in his formative years, I don't know, maybe he is just ahead of us and he's in complete control of his brain

Jk, please don't ban
Old 28th July 2014
  #177
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Quote:
There are NO and there were NO synths in the past that sounded like Macbeth. So whoever points to nostalgia factor is a complete clod. (not looking at you xanax)
Sure, that Macbeth sound more modern than kyma, imo
Old 28th July 2014
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
I sold my old Minimoog and bought a Voyager, the pros are after all more than the cons. No more hazel and non stop expensive service as different old components dies. And it's programmable. When found a great sound on the old Mini I had it for months due to if I changed it, it was gone fore ever (even the slightest change made it different). And different days the same sound sounded different due to temperature, moister and temperament. I don't miss that part. But I miss the sound itself.
Right so you favoured modern technology/reliability over sound.. that's sort of a different topic/dilemma even though it's related.. I'm in a similar boat, as I also let go of my Source for a Phatty.. which I ended up upgrading to a Voyager ( even though I could have got a Model D..) and got zero regrets... the interface, midi, modulation, sound range, dual filters & semi-modularity simply makes it more appealing to me.. but on a similar patch, sound wise alone I'm thinking the D would have the juicier advantage as exposed in this comparison vid:

Old 28th July 2014
  #179
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_apprentice View Post
that sound because it has been his 'listening education' in his formative years, I don't know, maybe he is just ahead of us and he's in complete control of his brain
In formative years it was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NK6mJgu5Ec

Which is probably why i'm fan for old school samples, and samplers in general, particularly Akais. Nostalgia factor in this case: 100%.

Last edited by Don Solaris; 28th July 2014 at 12:44 PM.. Reason: corrected the wrong URL
Old 28th July 2014
  #180
142977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
In formative years it was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NK6mJgu5Ec

Which is probably why i'm fan for old school samples, and samplers in general, particularly Akais. Nostalgia factor in this case: 100%.
So what is it in plain objective terms that you like about say the P08 vs. Pro5 or Mini D vs. Voyager? Not that those would be fair comparisons as they are completely different instruments. But just as an example, maybe you have a better one.
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