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Why does older analog synths sounds better than newer? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 26th July 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris
It is mostly about transistors. Anyone can verify it. i.e. if you build one of the TB303 clones, you will never get that original 303 squelch unless you get a few of the original transistors (there are like 3 or 4 critical ones, others can be off the shelf).
which are the critical ones exactly?
Old 26th July 2014
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
But in terms of capturing "vintage vibe" in a modern synth, the Macbeth Micromac-D convinced me that it's possible.
I think it is possible in a number of modern synths, here is a track I done about a month ago using 2 modern analog synths and only 1 vintage synth, so 4 synth sounds(apart from the Spark 2 drum track), it sounds convincingly 80's retro enough for me to be happy with the modern synths I used.



I used 2 sounds from the Prophet 08, 1 from the Bass Station II, the other sound was the Juno 106, I won't say which sound is the Juno 106 at this point.
Old 26th July 2014
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
I think it is possible in a number of modern synths, here is a track I done about a month ago using 2 modern analog synths and only 1 vintage synth, so 4 synth sounds(apart from the Spark 2 drum track), it sounds convincingly 80's retro enough for me to be happy with the modern synths I used.



I used 2 sounds from the Prophet 08, 1 from the Bass Station II, the other sound was the Juno 106, I won't say which sound is the Juno 106 at this point.
Nice 80s tune. BTW, I guess the the chorused stereo sound starting at 0.49 is the Juno-106.
Old 26th July 2014
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
Nice 80s tune. BTW, I guess the the chorused stereo sound starting at 0.49 is the Juno-106.
Thanks for the compliment btw I'm still learning! The Chords at 0:49 seconds are from the Prophet 08 not the Juno 106.
Old 26th July 2014
  #35
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Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
Thanks for the compliment btw I'm still learning! The Chords at 0:49 seconds are from the Prophet 08 not the Juno 106.
I'm happy I was wrong - I will buy a P12 later down the road (yes I know it's not same as P08, but partly it sounds the same).

BTW, you have 303 posts - a nice number, reminds of something old and good
Old 26th July 2014
  #36
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Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
Why is it that older Moogs, Prophets etc sounds better than newer Moogs, Prophets etc? New analogs still sounds awesome, but older analogs has more edge, are more focused and more aggressive. Are the components built of not available any longer, are the old components too expensive to day for the way synths are manufactured or what?

Is it not possible to build modern synths with the sound quality of older analogs? Or ... ? Any idea?
The first question you have to consider is whether you're comparing the sound of a synth or sound of a recording of a synth. If you've got two synths side by side going through the same sound system then you're comparing synths. If you're trying to compare recording that you didn't make...... then there are too many variables to draw meaningful conclusions.

So, if you're comparing synths on a level playing field then I agree with most of what has been said; design, quality of components, and age of components. But at the end of the day things sound *different* and you decide what you like *better*. Your expectations play into such decisions of course. So many people seem to be convinced that "vintage" gear always sounds better, end of story. I'm not one of those people. Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, often times just different. Neither better nor worse, just different.
Old 26th July 2014
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
I'm happy I was wrong - I will buy a P12 later down the road (yes I know it's not same as P08, but partly it sounds the same).

BTW, you have 303 posts - a nice number, reminds of something old and good
lol, thought it was time I posted a bit of music to prove I'm not just a gear collector, PS I have a TT-303 too

BTW I am so happy with the Prophet 08, it is a stayer for me, get some really nice vintage tones out of it along with the Bass Station II, I'd have these over vintage cost and upkeep anyday, I am a lover of vintage synth sounds but also prefer using modern synths, they do the job for me....
Old 26th July 2014
  #38
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Originally Posted by sparqee View Post
The first question you have to consider is whether you're comparing the sound of a synth or sound of a recording of a synth. If you've got two synths side by side going through the same sound system then you're comparing synths. If you're trying to compare recording that you didn't make...... then there are too many variables to draw meaningful conclusions.

So, if you're comparing synths on a level playing field then I agree with most of what has been said; design, quality of components, and age of components. But at the end of the day things sound *different* and you decide what you like *better*. Your expectations play into such decisions of course. So many people seem to be convinced that "vintage" gear always sounds better, end of story. I'm not one of those people. Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, often times just different. Neither better nor worse, just different.
Many good points. I wish I was only comparing recorded synths, but I don't (even if I recognize the recorded synths sounds and more ore less exactly how it's archives as I've been recording synthesists in studios for 25 years). I own, or owned, many of those older analog synths and there are sonic differences compared to newer one that sounds more "plastic" (well, that's to overdrive,but in that direction).

What I don't miss with newer analog synths is all that hassles that comes with it. Many people talking about old analog synths are not aware of that. Therefore this my question in this thread - is it possible to build new analog synths with that old sonic sound?
Old 26th July 2014
  #39
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Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
lol, thought it was time I posted a bit of music to prove I'm not just a gear collector, PS I have a TT-303 too
You are an excellent composer and musician with good taste, making excellent music. Well done!
Old 26th July 2014
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post
Its simple...

New synths have no magic fairy dust.. You see back in the day "magic fairy dust" was an important part of the synth manufacturing possess...
In newer synths, Magic fairy dust has been replaced with Unicorn horn dust, which can be obtained in larger quantities, simply because unicorns are considerably bigger than fairies. Once again, it is simply a matter of taste whether you prefer one or the other, but I'm pretty much a unicorn guy.
Old 26th July 2014
  #41
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Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
You are an excellent composer and musician with good taste, making excellent music. Well done!
Wow, thanks, comments like that make me want to do more music and share it. Appreciate it...

Old 26th July 2014
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
I wouldn't say it is specificly about capacitors or transistors or opamps or whatever. All parts in general were produced with much higher tolerances in the past
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
One thing that doesn't come up much in these discussions are the engineers designing them - we have many excellent software programmers but there are fewer masters of analog electronics. And those that are maybe are not designing synthesizers - there is no equivalent to someone like Dave Hill designing new synths.

So we get rehashes of old designs but with new parts that don't sound the same. And the people rehashing them have either been around since forever or mostly (I think) just don't have the same skills and knowledge.
To me, it's these two things, mainly.
There still are people who are both capable and willing to design the damn things right, but they are fewer and fewer, and the market is narrowing with so many "good enough" analog synths being built already. Assuming you are one of those rare top-notch analog experts, it's hard to invest in the old-style analog components to achieve "that" sound, knowing that your product will cost more than the 'average' modern analog.

That said, my hat is off to Macbeth, Modcan, Pittsburgh, and the few other 'modern' designers who make synths which make me salivate and think of selling my house to buy them.
Old 27th July 2014
  #43
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Older doesn't always sound better than newer. I think my GRP A4 and my Knifonium synths sound phenomenal and they are new designs. There are plenty of great analog designers still out there so I don't believe that has much of anything to do with it either. If anything, with the explosion of the modular market there are probably more analog synth designers around now than there have been in quite a while.

Analog components are definitely more expensive so to get something with real quality requires not just a vision but a decision to make a synth at a price point to support it without going bankrupt. Gone are the days when you could just order up a batch of CEM or SSM chips to throw into your synth design because those analog filter chips aren't manufactured anymore. Anything you want to do like that is now a custom piece of work and that costs big dollars. Witness the Schmidt 8 voice poly as exhibit A. I am sure it can hold its own against any of the older designs.

That said, certain older synths DO sound phenomenal and it isn't just hype. A properly maintained Jupiter 8 is an awesome force of nature which is a joy to play.
Old 27th July 2014
  #44
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Originally Posted by Disease Factory View Post
I'm going to say this.. Slim Phatty to me I like more than the model D and voyager.

Dsi prophet 12, i like it more than juno 106, mks 80, and ob8.

Boomstar 4075 I like more than my sh2, more than my sh09, more than my micromoog.

Mopho x4 I like more than the prophet 5, more than the mks 30, more than the akai analogs.

Still of the old gear: Mks 50 and juno 60 cannot be beat, jupiter 8 nothing can touch, obxa for analog strings is amazing, then there are all the analog string machines that nothing can replace.

So in s sense, i think a lot of new analog gear is better than a lot of the old stuff.

DF
I wish I had your ears! I would love to have new analogs instead of museum relics... but alas... I 100% digagree with you.

P8 P12 P24 it doesn't matter, they don't hold a candle to P5 P10.
Old 27th July 2014
  #45
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Lol! Haven't been on this section for ages on but popped on to see how many regular fetishes were still being discussed to death ... now it's "old" 'anal'ogue Vs "new" 'anal'ogue without digital even mentioned ... I'll need a lot of popcorn over many years to see how this one bottoms out I'm guessing ...
Old 27th July 2014
  #46
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Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I also think aged capacitors makes quite a big impact. After I had my OB8 recapped - it was much cleaner...more modern...
Interesting. I have a soviet Minimoog clone I use with old capacitors. It sounds "like the first synthesizers", as one of my earlier music teachers said when he heard it. He wasn't impressed by the Voyager auditioned afterwards at all. At least when it comes to VCO sound that old soviet thing sounds way "better". It just seems to have a much nicer tone. And a better palette of sounds as well, as it can produce very nice sawtooth strings the Voyager seems not to be capable of. I wonder if the Macbeth can do that as well, as I thought that the Macbeth Micromac-D had a somewhat similar tone to that old soviet Mini clone, but I only heard it via the internet. One that sounds like an "old" Mini.
Old 27th July 2014
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by vexkon View Post
I wish I had your ears! I would love to have new analogs instead of museum relics... but alas... I 100% digagree with you.

P8 P12 P24 it doesn't matter, they don't hold a candle to P5 P10.
The prophet rev 3 sound bad, the only good sounds on it are the sync sounds and some bass. Same with the pro one. I prefer the newest synth, not on the tone, but more on the fact they can make way more wild and out there sounds with the seq, arps, and mod matrix. The tone is not better and I agree, but what it can do goes way beyond those old poly synths.

The prophet rev2, now that is another story..

Still, i did not say the p12 was better, read it again please.. i said i liked it more than the juno 106, mks80, and ob8.

and saying "I like" Is refering to my own personal taste, not "this sucks vs this as a fact".

I am saying my tastes, and yes, my ears.
Old 27th July 2014
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_Jezz View Post
Lol! Haven't been on this section for ages on but popped on to see how many regular fetishes were still being discussed to death ... now it's "old" 'anal'ogue Vs "new" 'anal'ogue without digital even mentioned ...
Without what even mentioned? Never heard of that before.

Edit: Now I got it. You are talking of the control circuitry to save and recall a sound heh
Old 27th July 2014
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
I also think aged capacitors makes quite a big impact. After I had my OB8 recapped - it was much cleaner...more modern...
I think its age in general.

My first synth was a poly800 and I've had more than a few if them since. More than half just had this awesome blawwwaapp kind of raw width to them.

I then bought a friends pristine ex800 and it had no life to it and realized what the true difference was. There was zero difference between the ex and any vst emulation if it. Reaktor, poly850 etc.
Old 27th July 2014
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Without what even mentioned? Never heard of that before.

Edit: Now I got it. You are talking of the control circuitry to save and recall a sound heh
He he ... well done ... still didn't mention that terrible process by which we are now communicating by default and by which all our sounds are ultimately delivered ... anyone still using C90 cassettes?
Old 27th July 2014
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
Because old people say that they do.

Edit: I'm kidding.....sorta.

But seriously, there is a bit of, "back in my day....they don't make it like they used to...etc."

We all like and wish for the way things once were. It takes time to usually realize that what we have right now, is actually pretty special as well. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
Nonsense. Where did that idea come from? I wasn't even born when most of these vintage synths came out, there's a damn likely chance you're older than me. I grew up with romplers and virtual analog. I thought ReBirth sounded great ... until I got my hands on a real TB-303. I thought VAZ Modular sounded pretty good.. until I got my hands on a FVS-1 and Odyssey. I have been fortunate enough to have access to these (sometimes expensive) analog synths, new and old, and agree in many cases that the favorable sound (to many of us) has not been matched often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disease Factory View Post
The prophet rev 3 sound bad, the only good sounds on it are the sync sounds and some bass. Same with the pro one. I prefer the newest synth, not on the tone, but more on the fact they can make way more wild and out there sounds with the seq, arps, and mod matrix. The tone is not better and I agree, but what it can do goes way beyond those old poly synths.

I still think modern analogs sound great, the dsi stuff, the moog stuff, the boom star, the modular stuff and the mfb stuff.
The prophet rev2, now that is another story..
DF
Now here's a guy I know has experience w/ synths old and new. I understand completely where he is coming from on these comments. I think a lot of the people bitching about the nonsense of vintage analog have actually never played some of these instruments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naugo View Post
Honestly, they don't. They just don't. They have that 80s sound which some people are after but I personally don't care for cheesey 80s pop (oh god I can already feel the hate from GS coming), they are more about nostalgia than anything else.
80's vibe? I have no idea what you're on about, sounds like a personal problem (joking!) Certainly not why I use some of these older instruments. The only one I can think off hand that reminds me of 80's stuff is maybe the JP-4... kinda sounds like 80's pop at basic settings...
Old 27th July 2014
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Prophet View Post
May be.

We can send out advanced vehicles out of the solar system with music onboard, but we can't make that sound they carry any longer. Wrong marketing to the aliens - they will be mad

BTW, wasn't the name of that satellite Voyager? Sounds familiar....
Sounds familiar!

Old 27th July 2014
  #53
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Old synths sound better because they have been played for a few decades.

My analogy is the same for guitars.
A guitar is a piece of wood when it starts out, but after many years
of playing there is a stetted resonance to the wood that makes it a special guitar.

New guitars don't know they are guitars yet, but older ones do.

same for synths
Old 27th July 2014
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowfac View Post
I know, right? Synths today have no shame. I saw a couple of them getting into second base right there on the street! Sharing control voltages and all. Told them to get the hell out of my lawn.


I think my moog and arp had a secret rendevous last night while I was sleeping. There was control voltages everywhere when I woke up and the arp was pulse width modulating


Old 27th July 2014
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disease Factory View Post
The prophet rev 3 sound bad, the only good sounds on it are the sync sounds and some bass.
Prophet rev 3 sounds amazing, but as you said it is your own opinion. If you only think the "sync" sounds are good, then you did not spend much time programming a P5rev3. When I first tried the P5 I kept going for the sync button to get a great sounding patch but later on I learned how to use the poly-mod and filter envelope to a greater degree to achieve amazing sounding patches.
Old 27th July 2014
  #56
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Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
the synth prof
Thanks, would you mind me asking what that cost? Pm if preferred. I really have no idea what sort of figures were talking for that.

Cheers
Old 27th July 2014
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovekrafty View Post
Old synths sound better because they have been played for a few decades.

My analogy is the same for guitars.
I don't buy it. I have CS-30 that was practically never played and sounds better than anything DSI ever put out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpsiegel View Post
Older doesn't always sound better than newer. I think my GRP A4 and my Knifonium synths sound phenomenal and they are new designs. There are plenty of great analog designers still out there so I don't believe that has much of anything to do with it either.
I agree. But if we look at what Ken Macbeth does, he buys a lot of NOS transistors from the 70's and installs those in machines instead of new ones. If someone knows how to design a good sounding synth, that's Ken. And if he goes for old transistors, there has to be a reason for it.
Old 27th July 2014
  #58
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When I work with my Chroma polaris.... I know definitely that nothing that i have experienced in software or newer hardware has the same kind of magic ....but I'm not talking about capabilities and possibilities.....only the sonic place that it can go... and I will admit....there is a narrow spectrum there,,,,but even with that, it's exceptional, and really exemplifies what is being discussed.

I can also say that about my MKS80.......but the Polaris wears a shorter skirt.
Old 27th July 2014
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ljudterapi View Post
I think the Vermona Mono Lancet has got it as well. Maybe not spot on, but cheaper.
I agree. The Lancet is a gem!

Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
here is a track I done about a month ago...
Enjoyed that!
Old 27th July 2014
  #60
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I'm a big big fan of vintage synths.. but I wouldn't underestimate the nostalgic factor.. old synths bring us back to our youth/childhood and we identify the sounds to some of our favourite records... puts a big smile on our face and a warm feeling inside.. but objectively i don't think modern analog sounds worse, technically it's actually better: cleaner, more detailed & stable sound.. problem is we often attribute that to digital so it doesn't sound as pleasing.. we don't want super in-tune stability.. which is why VA's have got 'slop' features.. sort of the same with old guitars, they sound all jangly due to corroded hardware & aged wood.. technically they're inferior but flaws is what gives it's character... again i wouldn't underestimate the power of psychoacoustics/perception..
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