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Why does older analog synths sounds better than newer? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 30th July 2014
  #331
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Would't say analogue synth suck by default on acoustic instruments. Many of them can sound like a didgeridoo.

BTW virtual instruments are the only "non-real-instruments".
Old 30th July 2014
  #332
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This applies in this thread too. I posted this another just now.

Part 2

Ok I'm GASSING for a Prophet 08 now!!

at 5:50 he talks about richer oscillators, if they would have gone that route. Sums up this thread and others.

Old 30th July 2014
  #333
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It's like configuring two identical days.
Old 31st July 2014
  #334
Yup this is why i will buy a p12, mopho x 4 over any old poly, junos, jupiters, obers...
Old 31st July 2014
  #335
Dsi stuff is amazing, may not be the ultimate tone and sound, but way better than software and VAs, and modular like. I think its great stuff.
Old 1st August 2014
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
Thanks for the compliment btw I'm still learning! The Chords at 0:49 seconds are from the Prophet 08 not the Juno 106.
+1 on the great music, I love these sounds in a contemporary track.
Hope you post more on SC, definitely following you.

The aforementioned chorused Prophet chords are lovely, what FX unit unit did you use?
I'm planning a hardware setup, starting on a budget and eventually getting into Prophet territory.
Old 1st August 2014
  #337
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This is what I think:

No synth, modern or old, sounds like a Jupiter 4, this is the best sounding synth in history. Period.
Old 1st August 2014
  #338
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danielb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by donethur View Post
This is what I think:

No synth, modern or old, sounds like a Jupiter 4, this is the best sounding synth in history. Period.
Can I hazard a wild guess that you've just bought one?
Old 1st August 2014
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielb View Post
Can I hazard a wild guess that you've just bought one?
Emmm nop, I just know a person who own one and I envy him with all my heart :D
Old 1st August 2014
  #340
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John Difool's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by donethur View Post
This is what I think:

No synth, modern or old, sounds like a Jupiter 4, this is the best sounding synth in history. Period.
And you've heard them all I gather...
Old 1st August 2014
  #341
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by donethur View Post
This is what I think:

No synth, modern or old, sounds like a Jupiter 4, this is the best sounding synth in history. Period.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that of the synths you've heard, the Jupiter 4 is your favorite.
Old 1st August 2014
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariosprt View Post
+1 on the great music, I love these sounds in a contemporary track.
Hope you post more on SC, definitely following you.

The aforementioned chorused Prophet chords are lovely, what FX unit unit did you use?
I'm planning a hardware setup, starting on a budget and eventually getting into Prophet territory.
Budget stuff all the way for me at the minute too, the Prophet 08 is running into a Behringer RX1602 Behringer: EURORACK PRO RX1602 (it is cheap and has no EQ but has a very clean signal), The external FX used is the Lexicon MX200, lovely little rack multi-fx unit for cheap, so good I don't feel the need to upgrade it - MX200 | Lexicon Pro - Legendary Reverb and Effects

Bass on the track is Bass Station 2, Chords - P08, Synth String Sound - Juno 106, the other sequence I played was the Prophet 08 too(the sound right at the start), All drums done and effected within Spark 2 software using a VDM kit that comes with it.

Many thanks for the comments - I am going to kick my own butt into finishing more music instead of doodling now, cheers...Hope I can see you following me also so I can check followers music too...?

Anyways, sorry all else for off-topic!
Old 2nd August 2014
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Difool View Post
And you've heard them all I gather...

man it is an expression, dont take it so literally. It is when somebody says "the best team in the world", a bit "joking". So far, I havent Heard a better one to my ears, thats why I say that. Maybe you could list the ones you think are better instead if you want to refute my statement, nonetheless, I clearly said that it is only my personal taste.
Old 2nd August 2014
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I don't think discrete components are a guarantee - years ago, when Fender designed its first transistor amps, they replaced the tubes with discrete transistors, everything was the same - same circuit topology, just transistors in place of tubes.

The sound of those amps was an absolute disaster - yet if you look at the circuit, you'd make a synth designer think "hey, cool - discrete electronics!!!".

It's all about the design and how well it's implemented. People waxing nostalgic over "discrete" electronics is another placebo - there's simply no evidence to support it. In the Fender example, the design was for tubes, not transistors, so it failed. You can make a great sounding discrete box, of course, but at what price? One has to make a business case for these things - years ago, the first transistors were discrete, that's all you had, but today there are better options.

isnt that a little hypocratic to to declare vintage electronic sound fx as mambo jambo for synths but your dear old fender only gets the best vintage valve gear treatment?

wow

Since you are probably not very deep into electronics let me explain.. Since an analog sytheziser is a sound generating circuit component differences have a much higher impact on that sound as in sound processing circuits.. in sound processing circuits the process has the biggest impact on the sound.. therefor litte component differences only show little.. on a sound generating circuit the process is the actual sound itself and little component variations become very audible.

So wrong conclusion.. with syths the fx of component choices. is even bigger than with guitar amps. And better or not left out of the question, old synths do sound different than new syths by component differences alone. The new oberheim sem versus the old oberheim sem is a perfect example since it dont has electrolytic caps in the signal path. But is modern SMT components versus 1970 op amps and carbon resistors but allmost identical circuit. And the new one does sound cleaner and brighter. the opposite of that. dirtier and darker is often experienced as a warmer sound.. when you like that more you probably get the idea that older synths do sound better....even when its just a different sound.

In any case its ignorant to be open for the phenomen for guitars but fanatically denying it for synthezisers. Components do matter in analog sound devices.
Old 2nd August 2014
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betterbox View Post
isnt that a little hypocratic to to declare vintage electronic sound fx as mambo jambo for synths but your dear old fender only gets the best vintage valve gear treatment?

wow

Since you are probably not very deep into electronics let me explain.. Since an analog sytheziser is a sound generating circuit component differences have a much higher impact on that sound as in sound processing circuits.. in sound processing circuits the process has the biggest impact on the sound.. therefor litte component differences only show little.. on a sound generating circuit the process is the actual sound itself and little component variations become very audible.

So wrong conclusion.. with syths the fx of component choices. is even bigger than with guitar amps. And better or not left out of the question, old synths do sound different than new syths by component differences alone. The new oberheim sem versus the old oberheim sem is a perfect example since it dont has electrolytic caps in the signal path. But is modern SMT components versus 1970 op amps and carbon resistors but allmost identical circuit. And the new one does sound cleaner and brighter. the opposite of that. dirtier and darker is often experienced as a warmer sound.. when you like that more you probably get the idea that older synths do sound better....even when its just a different sound.

In any case its ignorant to be open for the phenomen for guitars but fanatically denying it for synthezisers. Components do matter in analog sound devices.
If you're going to attempt to "explain" and "educate" me, especially with a condescending attitude, then learn to write coherently - you should also learn to respond to the point the OP (in this case, me) was making as well.

I never said discrete circuits in synths were "mambo jambo" and I also never claimed it was primarily "discrete components" that led me to love my vintage Fenders - I simply like the way they sound. I like how they sound better than many modern point to point wired amps, including my DrZ Maz jr, which is designed much like a vintage Fender, but sounds less open ... probably a design choice, new amps are designed to sound more like "recordings" right out of the box - tighter and punchier (I also like that point to point vintage amps are easy as pie to service.)

What i did say was that discrete components in a synth were no guarantee of a better sound. And I stick by that statement, a statement all you can do is hypothesize against. First of all, you have to assume everyone agrees old synths sound better than new ones - something I do not agree with.

Then you have to assume further, that discrete electronics were the reason ...

SMC's and combined IC's either weren't available or were just coming along when many of the synths you mention were made, those synths had to be designed around discrete circuits, they were noisy and full of caveats along their often cobbled together signal paths - noise and distortion were often the result of many factors - which to many people might equal "warmth", but to me are less desirable in a synth than in a guitar amp.

Thanks to modern manufacturing and design, I prefer the superior signal to noise and dynamic range of my P8, thank you very much. When it comes to synths, I don't want any additional sounds I don't put there - if I want noise and warmth, I'll dial it in - I've created a lot of impressive sound design using noise, all intentional - that's what an analog synth is, a machine for creating noise - like a big guitar pedal.

It's all about the overall design, and to my ears, most new synths, with their multiple modulation routings and more sophisticated multi-stage envelopes, sound a lot better and offer infinitely more complex sound shaping potential than anything made in the "golden era", in every way imaginable.

I find it interesting guys will argue endlessly over theoretical and unproven magic bullets like discrete components, but ignore all the incredible tools available today to make interesting and creative choices in sound design - most people doing great work are using guitar pedals and software plugins along their synth-based signal paths ... that's what being open minded is about, not wishing for some 1980 era return of the dark ages.
Old 2nd August 2014
  #346
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Newer ones probably have to conform to some FCC regulation...

Old ones had no limits.

I have no basis for this argument. i dont have any facts.

But... i would hazard a guess to this being a factor.
Old 2nd August 2014
  #347
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robot gigante's Avatar
Simple circuits most often do sound better, and vintage Fender amps are a great example of that. Modern amps don't sound the same not because they are designed to sound more like recordings, but because of the less simple design, and most definitely because of their components - most notably the transformers, which are not the same as older ones (different metals, lower power ratios). Same reason why people clone Pultecs, but can never nail the sound - equivalent transformers are simply not available. Personally I think a JMI AC30 or 60's Vibro-Champ sounds 'more like a recording' than modern amps - plug in your guitar and the classic sound on a gazillion records is instantly there - no need to process it any more than that. I suppose it depends on what recordings you are referencing.

Simpler circuits can sound better with synths too I think - compare the sound of early Oberheims to a Matrix 12 for example. The M12 is thinner and a little more muffled, even though it still sounds amazing. More options and capabilities - it can be a compromise. The more crap the signal runs through, the more it affects the sound. Which is fine. But assuming that the more features an analog synth has, the better it is can be a little misleading.

A more open raw sound vs. tweakability - a case could be made for either, the best bet imho is to have different synths that cover different bases.

I like noise and distortion in synths - processing after the fact is not the same. Guitar pedals blow if you want to keep an open sound. Again, if you want the best of both worlds, you can't get it all from just one synth from one era.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Would't say analogue synth suck by default on acoustic instruments. Many of them can sound like a didgeridoo.
Didgeridoo is acoustic. We have three of them at home and they all sound different. If your synths sounds like didgeridoo, well then they might be Australian (like the Fairlight).

Btw, one can't compare electronic and acoustic instruments, it's different species. Good acoustic instruments as well as good electronic instruments are old instruments and deserves owners that love them and makes great music with them.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I simply like the way they sound. I like how they sound better than many modern point to point wired amps, including my DrZ Maz jr, which is designed much like a vintage Fender, but sounds less open ...
can you prove this with audio files please?

Im really getting tired of all these claims - when I use Scuffham S - Gear which sounds great to me. I think its probably confirmation bias when people say these things...why would modern point to point wiring sound any worse?

All these vague terms like - 'open' sounding...its very subjective...
Old 3rd August 2014
  #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
can you prove this with audio files please?

Im really getting tired of all these claims - when I use Scuffham S - Gear which sounds great to me. I think its probably confirmation bias when people say these things...why would modern point to point wiring sound any worse?

All these vague terms like - 'open' sounding...its very subjective...
Old 3rd August 2014
  #351
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
can you prove this with audio files please?

Im really getting tired of all these claims - when I use Scuffham S - Gear which sounds great to me. I think its probably confirmation bias when people say these things...why would modern point to point wiring sound any worse?

All these vague terms like - 'open' sounding...its very subjective...
I never said modern point to point wiring sounded "worse" - you were doing better before the edit.

"Open", when describing a guitar amplifier, isn't "vague" at all, it's an accepted term, particularly considering the design of the speaker cabinet - if it's "open back" vs "sealed", it'll give you a different sound - there's a correlation between design and sound that's unmistakable.

I think I prefer my old Fenders because they're designed to NOT be high-gain amps. They're voiced for a certain type of sound I like, that's all. Modern amps tend to offer a more compressed, higher-gain tone that makes recording a bit easier (for modern musical tastes).

Superlatives like boxy, pinched, and tight come to mind to describe newer amps - terms I've heard, but you won't see me using

I've played many guitar amps (and owned quite a few) and I've never encountered a modern amp, PTP or otherwise, that sounds quite like an old Fender, but the Victorias come close.

Wrt synths, in your A/B test, you proved the opposite, there's an almost identical software relative to an analog synth in Diva (at the very least, I'm fairly certain many software synths are now hitting the mark).

I think, for a variety of reasons, it's easier to model a synth than a guitar amp.

This isn't confirmation bias, I'm still not sure you understand what it is - go back and read the link I provided.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I never said modern point to point wiring sounded "worse" - you were doing better before the edit.

"Open", when describing a guitar amplifier, isn't "vague" at all, it's an accepted term, particularly considering the design of the speaker cabinet - if it's "open back" vs "sealed", it'll give you a different sound - there's a correlation between design and sound that's unmistakable.

I think I prefer my old Fenders because they're designed to NOT be high-gain amps. They're voiced for a certain type of sound I like, that's all. Modern amps tend to offer a more compressed, higher-gain tone that makes recording a bit easier (for modern musical tastes).

Superlatives like boxy, pinched, and tight come to mind to describe newer amps - terms I've heard, but you won't see me using

I've played many guitar amps (and owned quite a few) and I've never encountered a modern amp, PTP or otherwise, that sounds quite like an old Fender, but the Victorias come close.

Wrt synths, in your A/B test, you proved the opposite, there's an almost identical software relative to an analog synth in Diva (at the very least, I'm fairly certain many software synths are now hitting the mark).

I think, for a variety of reasons, it's easier to model a synth than a guitar amp.

This isn't confirmation bias, I'm still not sure you understand what it is - go back and read the link I provided.
so basically your saying you feel exactly the same way about guitar amps as I do about analogue synths (vs modern analogue vs software etc)...only you are 'fairly certain software synths are hitting the mark'...sounds solid to me! I guess you are as much of an expert with analogue synths as I am with guitar amps...

BTW - did you ever witness a public guitar amp sim blind test vs a real amp? Lots of people get it wrong...so I guess Im fairly certain that many guitar amp sims are hitting the mark...
Old 3rd August 2014
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
so basically your saying you feel exactly the same way about guitar amps as I do about analogue synths (vs modern analogue vs software etc)...only you are 'fairly certain software synths are hitting the mark'...sounds solid to me! I guess you are as much of an expert with analogue synths as I am with guitar amps...

BTW - did you ever witness a public guitar amp sim blind test vs a real amp? Lots of people get it wrong...so I guess Im fairly certain that many guitar amp sims are hitting the mark...
Ha, yeah this is something I always think about with these ab tests - are there forums where people using amp simulations tell people who prefer actual or vintage amps that "they're stuck in the past"?

So an electronic musician who likes vintage gear is "stuck in 1980," but a guitar player using a 40 year old amp "is just a preference?"
Old 3rd August 2014
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
so basically your saying you feel exactly the same way about guitar amps as I do about analogue synths (vs modern analogue vs software etc)...only you are 'fairly certain software synths are hitting the mark'...sounds solid to me! I guess you are as much of an expert with analogue synths as I am with guitar amps...

BTW - did you ever witness a public guitar amp sim blind test vs a real amp? Lots of people get it wrong...so I guess Im fairly certain that many guitar amp sims are hitting the mark...
Perhaps they are, but I can't gig without a guitar amp ...
Old 3rd August 2014
  #355
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Perhaps they are, but I can't gig without a guitar amp ...
You could plug your Axe FX straight into the desk........and it would sound better than many amps.....
Old 3rd August 2014
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booksy View Post

So an electronic musician who likes vintage gear is "stuck in 1980," but a guitar player using a 40 year old amp "is just a preference?"
I think an electronic musician who is dogmatic about analog synths having to be old to be good is indeed, stuck in the past. It is the OP of this thread, and it's wrong.

I'm not telling people not to use old gear, I use a modern DRZ Amp as well as my old Fenders ... and I effect my guitar tones with all kinds of modern plugins and pedals. I don't hold the line on my guitar sound at the 40 year-old mark - I use whatever I have to create sounds.

If you guys want to keep going down this road of picking a fight with me and piling on, I'm guessing the mods will shut it down under the category of "bickering", when you have no argument, that's what you do ... you bicker.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
You could plug your Axe FX straight into the desk........and it would sound better than many amps.....
I do that sometimes, especially if the sound is going to be mostly plug in - like the Soundtoys Crystalizer, a very cool plug in for spacious, chorus and pitch-modulated effects. I plug straight into my API preamp and right into Pro Tools and "play" the plug in.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #358
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Muser's Avatar
there must be something everyone can agree on.

every hardware component is unique and smells different. ?
Old 3rd August 2014
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I do that sometimes, especially if the sound is going to be mostly plug in - like the Soundtoys Crystalizer, a very cool plug in for spacious, chorus and pitch-modulated effects. I plug straight into my API preamp and right into Pro Tools and "play" the plug in.
Do you know what Axe Fx is? Doesn't seem like it. Google it. That thing is pretty hard to tell apart from a real amp.....
Old 3rd August 2014
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
so basically your saying you feel exactly the same way about guitar amps as I do about analogue synths
Not "exactly", but similarly - I thought that was pretty clear, that's why I posted it, it was an olive branch of sorts - it wasn't supposed to be contentious, it was an attempt to say "I know how you feel" .... if I had to guess, I'd say you're a little bit, um, hypersensitive.
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