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What were Aphex Twin and Daft Punk mulitracking to in the '90s Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 24th July 2014
  #91
Here's a nice little quote from Future Sound of London in the Sound on Sound classic tracks article:

"In actual fact, we were criticised because we had loads of gear, and that's absolutely laughable because the rock and indie bands that were around back then had ****loads of gear, since they were still doing it the old way. They were going into big, old studios and spending a fortune each day whereas we just had a bunch of gear that we'd begged, borrowed and stolen, and put in a room. There was nothing special about our gear, but then to a degree Brian and I also pumped ourselves up because that was the technology game. You pumped up your technology to make yourself look like a spaceship. After all, when you're a technological band it's cool to be a spaceship. So, we were going, 'Yeah, we've got five samplers. We're the mother ship,' and eventually that came back to haunt us. People would say, 'It's just a big bloody computer and it's really expensive,' and we'd think, 'You're welcome to make your point, but you're missing the point because rock is still far more expensive than we are and will ever be.'

"We were always very DIY and very punk, and our whole attitude was 'if it sounds good through the speakers, then it's good.' We wanted character. We didn't really want it to sound ordinary. We wanted it to sound extraordinary. I mean, these techniques had been used to produce flatulent rock albums, but they could also be used as a form of DIY to revolutionise the recording process."
Old 24th July 2014
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodeater View Post

Everyone today seems big into saving time and working faster and being "productive". It's ridiculous to me that kids getting into making tunes are talking about "workflow", you're supposed to **** around, figure stuff out and play it too loud. What's 24, 48 or 72 more hours in the grand scheme of things.

I think part of the problem that people run into with "itb" is there isn't any separation between sound creating/shaping, composing sequencing and it gets tiring at least for me, I have to switch it up.





and here's the other parts of that interview series:

I often feel this is what lacks in modern music production as well. Not getting out of the box and tinkering about for days and days. This is how producers from another era got "that" sound. Not necessarily a piece of vintage gear that you can bid on ebay for. More the journey of hooking this up to that or micing this guitar amp in a broom closet with the door ajar from a distance, etc. Experiment without looking at your watch. I was never in a hurry to get to the end in the 90's as I recall.


Also, Photek driving a Ferrari. There were some BMWs in the vid as well. That was the record advance right there, haha. This generation will never have a record label giving them an advance like back then.. That is a whole conversation in itself. Still, looks like they spent it on the car and not the gear, haha. Priorities of young men
Old 24th July 2014
  #93
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lain2097 View Post



Funny how that looks not far off some GS'ers gear pics..
That's modest compared to GS standards! heh You could have five samplers for $500 if you really wanted to, nowadays, or 5 somewhat decent ones for twice that.
Old 24th July 2014
  #94
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Gee I sat listening to that Selected Ambient works today whilst doing some reading and supping tea, it holds such a strange place in my mind that album, so stark and cold, almost lonely and lost, you'd almost go as far to say that it was completely inspired by Ketamine..

I think it really resonates with me in that manor because I first listened to it whilst trippin balls with a close freind of mine at the time, we had set aside two days of just getting really high and listening to music and watching music videos, we must of played Ambient works about 20 times over that 48 hrs, when I listen to it now it takes me to a very surreal place and feelings I find hard to describe, when I concentrate on the sounds I realise how wonderfully simple and yet brilliant they were...
Old 24th July 2014
  #95
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One of the best SOS articles ever... > EAT STATIC: Chart Success

Check their gear list down the bottom of the article...drooool..!!!
Old 24th July 2014
  #96
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I love this thread!

I agree that current music often sounds overproduced and a bit ... mulchy, perhaps (pre-chewed). I often do what Sean Costello suggests, and track to stereo, or a few tracks that are mixed or put together somehow without trying to overthink it.

I love the 90's and all it had going for it, electronic music wise, but I don't think it is possible or nescessary to go back to that on a large scale. Music will progress, probably in a way that is not obvious right now.
Old 24th July 2014
  #97
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Yoozer's Avatar
To go back to the 90s just 90s technology isn't enough - you also need a 90s economy (and the last dying gasps of 80s fashion)
Old 24th July 2014
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
One of the best SOS articles ever... > EAT STATIC: Chart Success

Check their gear list down the bottom of the article...drooool..!!!
Agreed, still a fascinating article. Shame that ES went all d&b with Science Of The Gods, though. Very poor album and they haven't done much since that holds up to Implant or Abduction.
Old 24th July 2014
  #99
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Science of the Gods was drivel, Implant was incredible. Saw them live in Sydney in about 2010 I think it was, did the sound for them at some Irish pub in the city, can't remember the venue name, had a cranking old system all old DBX compressors and an ancient analog desk, took all night to get them sound right but wow once we hit it that spot they were fekkin loud and brutal...didn't recognize any of the tracks they played, actually it was only Joey actually, hunched over a 32 chan Mackie with some outboard...the 90's was deffo their period..
Old 24th July 2014
  #100
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I remember recording to DAT in the early 90's and doing multiple takes to try to record the final mix. Live tweaking a wah wah pedal, analogue delay feedback and tweaks of fx sends... Get 3/4 of the way through, stuff up and start again. But was great to get all the way through. Was a real "it's done" moment.

Now with Daws, instant recall, plugins etc it's really hard to know when your track "is done". Which leads to overworking and loosing the essence. Well it can anyway.

I once saw Aphex play live. Well actually all anyone saw was a bit of the top of his head as he sat on the floor with some gear behind a DJ console :/ sounded nuts.
Saw him play just 2 years ago and it was head and shoulders above anyone else that day. Skrillex, Sven Vath and Dubfire had played earlier and were behind me watching him play and learning a thing or two!

Another dose of respect to Mike Paradinas. "In Pine Effect" is a seminal album for me.
Old 24th July 2014
  #101
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the recording method has a huge impact on the music - what you can and can't do while the tape is rolling. for me, i had to work the mixer, the synths, the drum machines, the efx, everything. it was exhausting to record. and then do it again because you f'd the last bit at the end. and then you f'd the intro cause you were toasted. can't do it tomorrow, the analogue will sound different. gotta keep that arp rolling or you'll never get that to gel again...
Old 24th July 2014
  #102
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_Davis View Post
This should be the official logo for this forum.


My thought EXACTLY.

As someone who has been making and recording music all through the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc., (I am 56 years old), I never cease to be amazed by the nostalgia on this forum, and indeed, looking back at the past (perhaps by those who did not live in it) using the proverbial rose-colored glasses.

In 30 years, there will no doubt be people on this forum (young and otherwise) wanting to know what was done to make such great sounding recordings back in 2010-2020. They'll be fawning over the original Logic plugs, and resurrecting old computers to run the first Arturia software instruments. Old style non-SSD hard drives will be all the rage, as will the use of actual copper wires to connect speakers.
Old 24th July 2014
  #103
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Indeed.
Some of these rants amount to "when i was young we had fun and great art, pity about your vacuous existence ..."

Funny , i don't remember at the time people saying an S950 and a cheap desk represented a new golden age. Quite the opposite.
Old 24th July 2014
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky909 View Post
the recording method has a huge impact on the music - what you can and can't do while the tape is rolling. for me, i had to work the mixer, the synths, the drum machines, the efx, everything. it was exhausting to record. and then do it again because you f'd the last bit at the end. and then you f'd the intro cause you were toasted. can't do it tomorrow, the analogue will sound different. gotta keep that arp rolling or you'll never get that to gel again...
Ha, I think you just described my recording process. I record into a DAW but I mostly record live takes through a mixer. I think that concern - "if I don't record this now it might not sound the same tomorrow" - has very real effects on the music, as you push yourself to practice getting a take right and build things up in real time.

I have a friend who used to make tracks in FL, building up and looping parts, and was complaining about the kind of "time void" his music was having because it felt static. I think the strength of the old school/live take thing is that you're performing it and hearing it in real time - if it isn't interesting enough to want to play through while recording, why should it be interesting for anyone else?
Old 24th July 2014
  #105
Lives for gear
By the way, I love the video earlier in the thread of Photek. Something very endearing about how young they look and their cars. I've always been more into techno than dnb, but some of their stuff still sounds great.

I also found the description of their mixing process enlightening, lol...
Old 24th July 2014
  #106

Last edited by sameal; 24th July 2014 at 04:24 PM.. Reason: eh, kinda derailing.
Old 24th July 2014
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I know the end of the century was not the best time for homeslutz like it is in the new millenia, 2014 what have you. Or maybe I'm underestimating what could be done back then, on the available gear.
That may be true, but except for doing ultra automation VST type music, you could do anything just as well back then, the methods were just different.
Old 24th July 2014
  #108
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by booksy View Post
I think the strength of the old school/live take thing is that you're performing it and hearing it in real time - if it isn't interesting enough to want to play through while recording, why should it be interesting for anyone else?
thats a good point , the performance / recording down aspect seems to yield some magic also , no 2 takes were every the same , it lead to happy accidents that now we engineer out as ' imperfections ' and eq out in the same quest for ' perfection ' ( a dead cold world of sterile humans all in white jump suits measuring kick drum compression graphs )

Spontaneity is lost more often than not due to the limitless processing you have in a Daw , it triggers of the ocd aspect of human mentality and as we can process more and perfect we do and we then polish the creative force away and were left with perfect ' product ' .

the focus on making music in the late 80's through 90's was really just making good music easily , now its about making well engineered and ' perfect ' music and so the emphasis placed on the engineering aspect as pulled most writer / engineers away from their creative nature into their mental nature ) although engineering can of course be a creative process is more often than not a mentally fixated obsessive process that counter defeats the spontaneous nature in an artist.

edit less and shift more back to a live capture / mentality/ and start to leave flaws in.

You will feel more free , finish more work , feel less fear of what others think and you will find your music has more spirit.

Daw based over editing and processing has i think killed the spirit in a lot of music
Old 24th July 2014
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isdn View Post
( a dead cold world of sterile humans all in white jump suits measuring kick drum compression graphs )
/
ahhh, yes such is the tyranny of today.

sorry , what are we discussing? errr... the recording of sequenced instruments.

for a moment I thought it was about how people used to scrape catgut over wooden boxes reading feather etched parchment by candlelight
Old 24th July 2014
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
That's a bit misleading...all releases required mastering to allow manufacturing of the final product.

For vinyl that meant cutting a master disk to make stampers from.

For CDs it meant making a RedBook master for duplication.

For tapes it meant Dolby processing, reordering tracks if needed to fit, etc.

That's a lot different than the so-called "mastering" people do on their laptops today.

This is true, but my early tunes (and most ppls in that scene) were mastered by Nilz (RIP) at the Exchange in about fifteen minutes while we chatted and I eat a sandwich..There wasn't a huge mastering suite and loads of fuss; he had a rack of gear and just did it..I then went back to my studio (in my mates bedroom in Catford) and started again..We took DATs to "master" from but it was all made on ****e compared to what we have today - and what we considered a bit crap then is now revered - how times change

I still make music the exact same way; with a desk, with synths, and outboard fx etc..I use Logic but that's because I can get jiggy with the drums..agree with isdn about DAWs being timing-sick ..I used to write on an MSQ-700 before I got my ST, but I'd still use a DAW now..My concession to the 21st century..They have their uses.

I print to 1/4 inch tape then back into digital for playback because I like tape's sound..Always did

Great post isdn..I was there too..it was like the wild west compared to today

And Aphex was always a nerd. He was circuit-bending and breaking things before it became trendy..that's why he used Sound Tools, coz it was computer-based - Radical, as he used to say. A lot. Probably still does
Old 24th July 2014
  #111
I don't think that's the point I was getting at. I think my fascination is that not only does this older stuff stand up to what's being done today, it's also iconic and definitive, and was recorded on gear that a lot of people these days would turn their noses up at. Also it's been made clear that the recording process was a lot different, with things being tracked live in the analog domain to a stereo recorder.

I think people, myself included, can get a little too caught up in having the latest and greatest gear, as if it somehow makes better sounding music. A lot of this great music from the '90s was made with whatever these guys could manage to get their hands on, beg borrow or steal.

Also not everyone today is making in-the-box music, a lot of people still appreciate the hardware method. I think the '90s is a testament to both the general effectiveness of the hardware process, and the lack of the need for absolute gear snobbery. I think a lot of people are getting back to that these days.

It's pretty bad-ass what computers are capable of, though, and they are the exact reason that a lot of this old gear is worthless now.

I just like the ethos of electronic music in general. It seems to be about resourcefulness, thriftiness, really listening, fun, weirdness, stuff like that. It just seems to come from an authentic place. Where as Future Sound of London pointed out, the pop and rock world is much more fixated on incredibly expensive working methods, and the mood is different. Just take a look at the High End forum here if you don't believe that. It must be because rock music was born in high end recording studios, and electronic music as we now know it came from spare bedrooms etc. Some things never change. EDIT: woops, over-generalizing here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
My thought EXACTLY.

As someone who has been making and recording music all through the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc., (I am 56 years old), I never cease to be amazed by the nostalgia on this forum, and indeed, looking back at the past (perhaps by those who did not live in it) using the proverbial rose-colored glasses.

In 30 years, there will no doubt be people on this forum (young and otherwise) wanting to know what was done to make such great sounding recordings back in 2010-2020. They'll be fawning over the original Logic plugs, and resurrecting old computers to run the first Arturia software instruments. Old style non-SSD hard drives will be all the rage, as will the use of actual copper wires to connect speakers.
Old 24th July 2014
  #112
Lives for gear
 

The music I was listening to between 1989-1994 went down the sh*t pipe in 95/96.

DAWs were in their infancy (Atari Falcon etc.), and no-one I knew was using one.

You can't blame everything on DAWs.
Old 24th July 2014
  #113
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blinky909's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanRand View Post
The music I was listening to between 1989-1994 went down the sh*t pipe in 95/96.

DAWs were in their infancy (Atari Falcon etc.), and no-one I knew was using one.

You can't blame everything on DAWs.
the influx of gear that reduced the barrier of entry helped erode the quality - everyone was jumping on the electronic music bandwagon. as computers came in more and more, so did the amount of crap.

also, the lifespan of some of those styles weren't very long, esp. with the massive number of "also rans"
Old 24th July 2014
  #114
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by isdn View Post
thats a good point , the performance / recording down aspect seems to yield some magic also , no 2 takes were every the same , it lead to happy accidents that now we engineer out as ' imperfections ' and eq out in the same quest for ' perfection ' ( a dead cold world of sterile humans all in white jump suits measuring kick drum compression graphs )

Spontaneity is lost more often than not due to the limitless processing you have in a Daw , it triggers of the ocd aspect of human mentality and as we can process more and perfect we do and we then polish the creative force away and were left with perfect ' product ' .

the focus on making music in the late 80's through 90's was really just making good music easily , now its about making well engineered and ' perfect ' music and so the emphasis placed on the engineering aspect as pulled most writer / engineers away from their creative nature into their mental nature ) although engineering can of course be a creative process is more often than not a mentally fixated obsessive process that counter defeats the spontaneous nature in an artist.

edit less and shift more back to a live capture / mentality/ and start to leave flaws in.

You will feel more free , finish more work , feel less fear of what others think and you will find your music has more spirit.

Daw based over editing and processing has i think killed the spirit in a lot of music
But isn't this just all a natural progressive path we would be taking no matter what...?

we came to perfect music relatively quickly when you consider the time periods from say the 50's till now, only a mere 65 years, one persons lifetime and we arrived at perfectly tuned and written electronic music, pretty cool I think, that graph just goes up at an astounding rate...!!

So we would of arrived here anyways, what's next, okay rehash this and that, but moving forward will have to get past the OCD engineering, nothing stays as is in life anywhere, music and production will evolve with us, I don't see it as a negative, I embrace and enjoy the symmetry and crunch of perfect binary music...
Old 24th July 2014
  #115
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar


ahhhh the memories..lol
Old 25th July 2014
  #116
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Spectralwaves's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by isdn View Post
4 tracks tape or a basic cassette tape , hardware samplers ( early roland and casio ) , ms20's , dx7 , a roland d50 maybe , sh101 , 303 and so on , all colliding at once through a compact mixer ( probably an old tascam or teac or something ) Its a certain sound that was never really beaten for this form of music.

There is something about a mix caught on the fly that's lost when you start to multi track to daw no matter how good your ad/da or summing , something is lost , live mixes using a nice compact set up and where your made to work on the sound at source and where its then captured to tape or even dat somehow have a feel i lost when i went to daw and i tried every way to get that sound back and you cannot without that older setup / workflow and mentality

Todays daw mixes largely sound like ' Ocd victims music ) to me now , its actually really rare to find good sounding electronica now due to vst / vsti and edit / compress / eq / limit / master fixation .It all sounds to well made , to pure , over eq'd , compressed , its been worked to much a lot of it.

The older sound is due to none of that.

Everyone's so fking obsessed with sound quality , eq , Mastering , back then it was all about the energy and way more spontaneous .There was also less need to impress , not sure why but now everyones out to impress using edit skills and production and it lacks soul due to that superficial mentality or reason for creating.

Most music scenes now look like '# wnking competitions ' , who can eq the best , get the most clean harmonic mix.Its penis stuff.

Sequencers come into this also , most daw midi ones are ****e and laggy on the timing , they drag and sound kind of weird or do not have the snap for drums in particular , sequencing with an atari whilst a bit like stepping into the stone age does have a unique feel , it seems to encourage a unique set of results.

Daws are ****e ( i use them daily for work and fking hate what they did to music , the sound of it now , the Obsessive compulsiveness they bring out in people and the only bigger skidmark than them is the fixation on masturbatory / mastering '#

most releases back then were not mastered

they sounded better for it i think or felt better , more raw .Everything sounds flat now or just hyper edited and separated and even with the greatest mastering it still sounds like a ' great mastered record ' and the electronica back then did not as it was not mastered or most of it ( i was releasing then and also knew many labels and really we lost it with the daw and this mastering mentality

every man and his dog now thinks he is an Audiophile and acts like one , some then become mastering engineers , tell you = you must never mix and master your own music ( as its all money driven in that scene and they want your money and job and cling onto some ego trip that they are or ' Masters ' of hearing ) and its all bollocks.

It all went downhill when compulsive daw editing / software and the rise in ' mastering ' music kicked in.

I was releasing in the early 90's and no one even mentioned mastering and by no one i mean people who sold 1000's of copies of music and some of you still regard as making classic old music .

So why the fixation now ? its got in the way.

go back and look at what people were doing in the early 90's and do it like that if you like that sound , you can polish a turd but it will always be one and 99% of music now is a polished turd ( its souless computer editor wank that sounds like a lesson in how to eq perfectly and compress ) being over polished by obsessives and people who should be data analysts and kept away from creative processes where Flaw / Error / Harmonic / Grain / Spontaneity are the key.

Music did not evolve , we all just became more mentally unwell and fixated on method and higher and higher degrees of Control over editing / perfection.

The music as a result now sounds like the work of politicians or likes its actually written by mastering engineers

Well said
Well said
Well said

I TOTALLY agree

Such a lot of highly polished overproduced mediocrity complete with the obligatory pumping side chain compression like a bad rash over the digital etc airwaves with some notable exceptions .

Last edited by Spectralwaves; 25th July 2014 at 12:32 AM.. Reason: no reason today
Old 25th July 2014
  #117
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anigbrowl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
As someone who has been making and recording music all through the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc., (I am 56 years old), I never cease to be amazed by the nostalgia on this forum, and indeed, looking back at the past (perhaps by those who did not live in it) using the proverbial rose-colored glasses.
I dunno, I'm using some modern gear but also several pieces of older gear whose characteristics I just happen to like - old Mackie mixer, Ensoniq effects. And I'm sequencing MIDI patterns rather than audio and have abandoned DAW-type automation. The DAW paradigm is great for some sort of stuff I do for work (audio for film) but I just don't enjoy it that much for making music, so I went back to the way I did some things in the 90s when I first started making music.
Old 18th August 2014
  #118
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rasseru's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasimirsBlake View Post

Edit: One thing that many people don't touch on when it comes to the differences between modern electronic music and the old stuff is simply that more people are doing it, more of those people just aren't very good musicians or composers even if they can mix and engineer well.
nail.on.head.



i left this thread weeks ago, but me an' me mate dave from egham have just been listening to music from 1988 and music from 2014.


differences in sound but a good tune is a good tune. he comes with the '88 classics and ive played him stuff from a month ago.


the only thing we found hard is to mix the 2 together because of the difference of top end modern sheen & clarity vs old skool dirtyness/muffled/warmth


a tune is a tune.



but yeah, buy some tape decks or satin (i use satin for ease of use)


edit* funny ive been talking to anigbrowl about an old tune to see if he can reduce the hiss on it. (so we can play it with more modern stuff. weird)
Old 19th August 2014
  #119
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rasseru's Avatar
in fact, its the hardest things i find as a DJ - mixing eras and production techniques and making them work (and not making the older look 'bad' or the newer too 'loud')
Old 30th September 2014
  #120
Gear Maniac
 
Kan Kaban's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by isdn View Post
4 tracks tape or a basic cassette tape , hardware samplers ( early roland and casio ) , ms20's , dx7 , a roland d50 maybe , sh101 , 303 and so on , all colliding at once through a compact mixer ( probably an old tascam or teac or something ) Its a certain sound that was never really beaten for this form of music.

There is something about a mix caught on the fly that's lost when you start to multi track to daw no matter how good your ad/da or summing , something is lost , live mixes using a nice compact set up and where your made to work on the sound at source and where its then captured to tape or even dat somehow have a feel i lost when i went to daw and i tried every way to get that sound back and you cannot without that older setup / workflow and mentality

Todays daw mixes largely sound like ' Ocd victims music ) to me now , its actually really rare to find good sounding electronica now due to vst / vsti and edit / compress / eq / limit / master fixation .It all sounds to well made , to pure , over eq'd , compressed , its been worked to much a lot of it.

The older sound is due to none of that.

Everyone's so fking obsessed with sound quality , eq , Mastering , back then it was all about the energy and way more spontaneous .There was also less need to impress , not sure why but now everyones out to impress using edit skills and production and it lacks soul due to that superficial mentality or reason for creating.

Most music scenes now look like '# wnking competitions ' , who can eq the best , get the most clean harmonic mix.Its penis stuff.

Sequencers come into this also , most daw midi ones are ****e and laggy on the timing , they drag and sound kind of weird or do not have the snap for drums in particular , sequencing with an atari whilst a bit like stepping into the stone age does have a unique feel , it seems to encourage a unique set of results.

Daws are ****e ( i use them daily for work and fking hate what they did to music , the sound of it now , the Obsessive compulsiveness they bring out in people and the only bigger skidmark than them is the fixation on masturbatory / mastering '#

most releases back then were not mastered

they sounded better for it i think or felt better , more raw .Everything sounds flat now or just hyper edited and separated and even with the greatest mastering it still sounds like a ' great mastered record ' and the electronica back then did not as it was not mastered or most of it ( i was releasing then and also knew many labels and really we lost it with the daw and this mastering mentality

every man and his dog now thinks he is an Audiophile and acts like one , some then become mastering engineers , tell you = you must never mix and master your own music ( as its all money driven in that scene and they want your money and job and cling onto some ego trip that they are or ' Masters ' of hearing ) and its all bollocks.

It all went downhill when compulsive daw editing / software and the rise in ' mastering ' music kicked in.

I was releasing in the early 90's and no one even mentioned mastering and by no one i mean people who sold 1000's of copies of music and some of you still regard as making classic old music .

So why the fixation now ? its got in the way.

go back and look at what people were doing in the early 90's and do it like that if you like that sound , you can polish a turd but it will always be one and 99% of music now is a polished turd ( its souless computer editor wank that sounds like a lesson in how to eq perfectly and compress ) being over polished by obsessives and people who should be data analysts and kept away from creative processes where Flaw / Error / Harmonic / Grain / Spontaneity are the key.

Music did not evolve , we all just became more mentally unwell and fixated on method and higher and higher degrees of Control over editing / perfection.

The music as a result now sounds like the work of politicians or likes its actually written by mastering engineers
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended?.

A shame this kind of thinking gets always banned... I guess is not that simple to be in this kind of world, without loosing "proper" manners.

We´ll miss you ISDN.
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