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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 22nd July 2014
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
Ya see, whenever its a raw waveform against raw waveform test though, everyone claims you can't tell because there is no filtering and no resonance. People always claim that with a little filtering its a dead giveaway. Seriously, I'm not trying to argue, just go look at any number of threads around here that are like that.

So when the excuse is either no filter or too much filter as to why you can't tell a difference, as I've seen both claims here numerous tmes, I'm calling b.s. Because, that comment is entitely dependent on the test.

Diva is just pretty damn good.

Yoozer, you still got that Diva vs Model D wide open filter, saw riff in your Soundcloud?
But that test was not a comparison of the raw waveforms. It was a test to show the huge amount of phasing going on with the oscillators in Diva and stating this behaviour is not replicated by analogue hardware. A comparison of single saw waves is not the same thing as a comparison of sounds using two or more oscillators.

So why claim BS if you haven't grasped what my test was trying to show. And yes, Diva is damn good, but only at some things, but not everything if you're going for the perfect analogue emulation.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
LOL
Old 22nd July 2014
  #243
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
What, do you do sound effects for vintage-like video games?
Well, Kraftwerk did some good use of those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1rezswXJ2c

(good luck creating this track on VST)
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #244
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Read any scientific work concerning this topic, the specific statements can not be of any interest to the whole picture as there are no differences which are significant.
Truth to be said, one single example is not science at the first place. If these were 300 audio examples back to back, then we could gather some scientific data out of it. Because we talk devices capable of producing thousand of different timbres. As i mentioned earlier, there are some knobs on synths. Start moving them side by side and see where you end. This is precisely what none of tests ever do. To this date I have absolutely never seen or heard, anyone, ever, submitting an actual side by side test of knobs tweak between actual unit and its emulation. Since we all like tests, why not finally making one?
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Truth to be said, one single example is not science at the first place. If these were 300 audio examples back to back, then we could gather some scientific data out of it. Because we talk devices capable of producing thousand of different timbres. As i mentioned earlier, there are some knobs on synths. Start moving them side by side and see where you end. This is precisely what none of tests ever do. To this date I have absolutely never seen or heard, anyone, ever, submitting an actual side by side test of knobs tweak between actual unit and its emulation. Since we all like tests, why not finally making one?
Well, this got pretty close:
reality check: monark versus... | NI Support Forum

Btw., I recreated loads of Kraftwerk patches in Monark, I'll see if I can post them soon.
EDIT: A little taste (I know I can do better): Nope: softsynths still CANNOT capture the analogue sound IMHO
Old 22nd July 2014
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I think in the future we well see a trend towards the soft synths being liked better than raw analogue synths in such tests, simply because the raw analogue synth will not sound as polished out-of-the-box as the soft synth.
I think so as well.

I also think I'm probably in the minority here for not particularly liking the sound of DIVA in this test. In other tests, I've mistaken DIVA for real analog. But here, the sound hit my ears in an uncomfortable way right from the start (the usual give away for me). It was punchy, yes, but not the kind of punchy I like.

The Oberheim, on the other hand, was gentle on my ears -- a quality I associate with good analog synths. It's like many of the compliments given to DIVA here such as punchy, present, focused, etc were precisely what I didn't like about it. It didn't sound natural to me, but contrived. The OB8 sounded more natural; more real.

I still see this as a victory for DIVA, though. And if some people like the way it sounds even more than a genuine analog then it's really silly not to use it. But personally, I wouldn't pass on an OB8 based on this test alone!
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Read any scientific work concerning this topic, the specific statements can not be of any interest to the whole picture as there are no differences which are significant. A difference only is significant if a majority of persons (which even may be experts!) is capable to tell (in double blind tests - no tricks allowed), while the size of the majority must exceed the size of the minority by a certain (pretty low) percantage. This (pretty low) percentage is determined by the variation which could be introduced into the end result by pure guessing (which reaches a boundary value for large N as chaos theory tells us that with guessing there will always be an "almost-equal" amount of opposite votes).
Science already has proven again and again that any Prosumer-level converter surely won't clutter such a test as conducted in this thread by Swan808.
I'm very familiar with the scientific method, thank you very much. And I went to great lenghts to get these things right in my studio. Plenty of objective tests (especially null tests) show obvious differences between converters, and these differences are easily audible once your playback system is up to it and you know what to listen to. Experts are not necessary, I frequently subject lay people to double blind tests here, and they can all hear it.

What's more, the differences really become obvious in the mixing stage, when recorded material is subjected to further processing.

And that's all I say here about the topic, you can search this forum to have some very knowledgeable EE and ME tell you the same thing. It's not voodoo.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #248
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Obviously this thread is largely about tone.

IMO, one can get pretty close in software, close enough these days to fool the ears of even an expert. As others have mentioned, interface is a very important factor, and whilst of no importance for trying to identify analogue and digital synths in a file over an internet connection, it's far more relevant for myself in terms of simple ease of sound design in a studio setup. Analogue or digital is still of lesser importance to myself than certain design requirements, like whether there's a knob per function, torque of the knobs, and also knobs vs sliders. Analogue <--> digital is lower of the list than these mentioned functions, unless of course the synth sounds like ****e.

Last edited by ignorantape; 22nd July 2014 at 03:57 PM.. Reason: Tweakyboo
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #249
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Well, Kraftwerk did some good use of those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1rezswXJ2c

(good luck creating this track on VST)
Why would you think that "space bomb" type sounds couldn't be made with a VST? For something like this, I immediately went to Oddity, my trusty old ARP Odyssey VST.
Attached Files

space bombs.mp3 (473.5 KB, 177 views)

Old 22nd July 2014
  #250
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Try and recreate this sound!



And I'd also like to know if that Model D - Diva comparison is still online and where it can be heard.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #251
Urs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Load up Diva and choose whatever you like, but basically you want two VCOs and the filter wide open and keep the VCA's sustain full.
Now create whatever sequencer for a loop you like, can just be a single note for a bar, but keep it the same note just to make things really obvious.

Then play, you'll notice the sound varies hugely, like the phase is changing every time the note is triggered, causing huge variations in the sound every single time. Can try detuning the oscillators slightly to replicate the non-perfect nature of two VCOs not quite in tune, but its still there.

Even the most temperamental analogues don't behave like that.
Becuase it's polyphonic. Don't worry though, we're rewriting the voice controller so that subsequent notes can be distributed to the same voice. Then you'll get exactly what you'll hear from a mono synth.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
I think so as well.

I also think I'm probably in the minority here for not particularly liking the sound of DIVA in this test. In other tests, I've mistaken DIVA for real analog. But here, the sound hit my ears in an uncomfortable way right from the start (the usual give away for me). It was punchy, yes, but not the kind of punchy I like.

The Oberheim, on the other hand, was gentle on my ears -- a quality I associate with good analog synths. It's like many of the compliments given to DIVA here such as punchy, present, focused, etc were precisely what I didn't like about it. It didn't sound natural to me, but contrived. The OB8 sounded more natural; more real.

I still see this as a victory for DIVA, though. And if some people like the way it sounds even more than a genuine analog then it's really silly not to use it. But personally, I wouldn't pass on an OB8 based on this test alone!
it was exactly the same for me. the second sounds more natural to my ears.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Why would you think that "space bomb" type sounds couldn't be made with a VST? For something like this, I immediately went to Oddity, my trusty old ARP Odyssey VST.
It's really about the "snappiness" of the envelopes in the case of Antenna for me. Something that emulations have been struggling to accurately reproduce.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #254
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lain2097's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
...The Oberheim, on the other hand, was gentle on my ears -- a quality I associate with good analog synths. It's like many of the compliments given to DIVA here such as punchy, present, focused, etc were precisely what I didn't like about it. It didn't sound natural to me, but contrived. The OB8 sounded more real...
Exactly what I thought too, I got it right Which is exactly what I thought, real analogues tend to sound smoother and pile-up in a mix. Precisely why I went sraight to lo-fi digital as they're very bright and mix well together. In the end, who cares, if it wasn't mentionned that there's two different alternating synths, I'd think nothing of it.

Perhaps I should also do a A/B with hardware digital vs. digital. Though 8-bit synths are not really well emulated in software so it could be a fun test.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #255
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Why would you think that "space bomb" type sounds couldn't be made with a VST? For something like this, I immediately went to Oddity, my trusty old ARP Odyssey VST.
Make an A/B test between that and what would come out of a real Odyssey. I'd be surprised if most members here couldn't easily hear the difference.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
Becuase it's polyphonic. Don't worry though, we're rewriting the voice controller so that subsequent notes can be distributed to the same voice. Then you'll get exactly what you'll hear from a mono synth.
Awesome!

If I was to set it to mono currently, could I get the "correct" behaviour? Or got to hold out for the update?
Old 22nd July 2014
  #257
Urs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Awesome!

If I was to set it to mono currently, could I get the "correct" behaviour? Or got to hold out for the update?
It currently iterates through the voices in the mono settings. We did this because it actually sounds more alive. However, often it's more desirable to have continuous beating between oscillators.

Not sure when the udpate is ready with this.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #258
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Urs voted right...

The reason why I voted for Diva first, is because you can hear a more brassy sound when the second one comes in (OB8). From what I've heard of the OB8 over the Internet, is that it shares a sonic character close to the current DSI synths (but better), and owning a Prophet 08 really made my choice easier, although not 100% sure. I the end, it had something to do with the filter character and the "more" brassy envelope.

Really nice test! It's interesting to see such a divided opinion about who's who. My guess is that people chose what they liked better and assumed it was analog, which not always is the truth. Both sound pretty close and a joy to the ears of the listener.

Cheers!
Old 22nd July 2014
  #259
Quote:
Originally Posted by hearteh View Post
it was exactly the same for me. the second sounds more natural to my ears.
Yes I also hear it the same way as Maison Vague...the attack of diva can sound a bit of a jab sometimes. One test I do on myself is to play the audio loud and see how it feels to my ears. The open high end of a good analogue synth can sound of very sweet even with loads of resonance. It's quite a subtle felt sense. I'll include it in my next tests...see if others feel similar...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #260
Gear Guru
Tricky test ... It became obvious to me once I listened on my co-workers dog**** muddy speakers... No hi end to distract me... The 2nd one was more "airy". I think mostly OB-8 owners could tell.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #261
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
Make an A/B test between that and what would come out of a real Odyssey. I'd be surprised if most members here couldn't easily hear the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_apprentice
It's really about the "snappiness" of the envelopes in the case of Antenna for me. Something that emulations have been struggling to accurately reproduce.
1) It is obviously easy enough to make "space bomb" noises with a VST.

2) Do you really think that any listener, anywhere, other than really really really picky analog synth enthusiasts on this forum care about "snappy envelopes" on space bomb noises?

3) I do not have a real Odyssey to make an A/B test.

4) Anyone who wants to spend $1500-$3000 on a real Odyssey, for snappier envelopes, etc., vs a VST for $99, is absolutely welcome to do so.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #262
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Why would you think that "space bomb" type sounds couldn't be made with a VST? For something like this, I immediately went to Oddity, my trusty old ARP Odyssey VST.
Well he did mentioned a space bomb but also self oscillating laser type noises and frequency modulation. These are featured in that Kraftwerk track. A space bomb is kinda trivial. What I'm more interested is laser/FM sound that appears 1:20 - 2:00 (unfortunately ****ty youtube compression included). I wonder can Oddity do that? Ironically, I know for a lot of analogue synths that can not recreate that sound.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #263
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if it's of any consolation to anyone .. I was counting to 8 bars instead of four, and I still thought I heard a difference from 8 count to 8 count....

/cray
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
It currently iterates through the voices in the mono settings. We did this because it actually sounds more alive. However, often it's more desirable to have continuous beating between oscillators.

Not sure when the udpate is ready with this.
Well its really cool to hear that its being looked at and definitely look forward to trying the update.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #265
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@keybdwizrd
I do care about snappy envs, it makes a difference for percussive sounds. Not much need to process these sounds in the mix.
It's quicker to get great results if the synth just does these things really well out of the box.

I want to state that I don't have a horse in this race, but so far I haven't heard anything that can truly replace the analog synths that I have.
I'll gladly give up my hardware for a laptop studio (and have replaced some things that were good enough for me), given the interface is good enough.

Old 22nd July 2014
  #266
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds View Post
Try and recreate this sound!
Dude, this is 240p el-crapo de crapola Youtube audio.

Random freeware VSTi sound 10x better than that.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bil_g View Post
[IMG]http://www.found****.com/pictures/funny/rick-astley-pie-chart.jpg[/IMG]

classic!
Old 22nd July 2014
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Dude, this is 240p el-crapo de crapola Youtube audio.

Random freeware VSTi sound 10x better than that.
Don't call me dude, guy!

Anyway, don't recreate the youtube artifacts, make it sound like finest vinyl.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #269
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_apprentice View Post
I want to state that I don't have a horse in this race, but so far I haven't heard anything that can truly replace the analog synths that I have.
I'll gladly give up my hardware for a laptop studio (and have replaced some things that were good enough for me), given the interface is good enough.

This is obviously a personal choice.

My main suggestion is always for people to really take a look at how much they're splitting hairs, and to suggest that for countless millions of humans with ears, that these people could not tell the difference.

But it's all about being inspired as an artist, and people should certainly use what works best for them. That is, assuming that they have the $ to buy thousands of dollars worth of hardware.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #270
142977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
This is obviously a personal choice.

My main suggestion is always for people to really take a look at how much they're splitting hairs, and to suggest that for countless millions of humans with ears, that these people could not tell the difference.

But it's all about being inspired as an artist, and people should certainly use what works best for them. That is, assuming that they have the $ to buy thousands of dollars worth of hardware.
I'm not into the nobody hears a difference idea. That is assuming the audience is ignorant. I do believe the texture of sounds is as important as the composition itself when it comes to emotional impact.
Why use something inferior sonically when you could use something that sounds better? It'll make the production better in the end.
That could be an analog sound or an emulated sound, non-electronic instrument, physmod, granular, etc. … it's all about having a wide palette of paint for me.

Try to do pads & leads like this with a plugin (with the same emotional weight) as in this track:
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