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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 26th July 2014
  #931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
100% Diva. No external effects.

I just recorded this for fun, so take it for what it is.

I like the squishy sound of this. Can an OB8 be even squishier?

Sounds good.
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Old 26th July 2014
  #932
Gear Maniac
 

i really enjoy diva but my feeling is on patchs that rely heavily on audio rate modulation i feel like it s not on par with analog..that could be just my imagination as i didn't compare it to the synths it's modeled
Old 26th July 2014
  #933
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
thanks mate! you advice has been is spot on thru the years so nice of you to say.

btw which MBP are you using? Im having a slight issue with my late 2011 2.2 - as soon as the fan kicks in - the CPU usage goes thru the roof and I have to quit...I thought LL mode was to shut off high delay plugins in Logic - does it reduce CPU?
Now I'm questioning myself, it feels lower latency to me. I have a 2.0 late 2011 with 8 gigs, I run it (and my Mac Pro Tower) at 256 in Logic with low latency monitoring on. Feels ok to me, give it a try!
Old 26th July 2014
  #934
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
page 32...

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Old 26th July 2014
  #935
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
page 32...

You keep waking up in Australia to find that this thread has STILL BEEN GOING ON!
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Old 26th July 2014
  #936
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
Sounds good.
Thanks. But it is squishy?
Old 26th July 2014
  #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
You keep waking up in Australia to find that this thread has STILL BEEN GOING ON!
yes...I wake up grab a coffee, flick on my mac and there it is right at the top of thread listings...everyyyyyyyyyday...
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Old 26th July 2014
  #938
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post

I dont assume this that everyone has an equal ability to discern tbh but I agree with you the broader results reflect an inability for the majority to discriminante in this particular sample.

Is it reasonable to think a person who has never owned an analogue synth - will have an equal ability to discern as a person who has a collection for a decade?
Well I could hear a difference between the two loops. But it was slight enough that I enjoyed listening to the track more than discerning te differences.

As someone who owns neither of the sound sources in this example, the only way I could determine which was which would be to make a judgement based on pre-conceived ideas of "what analogue synths sound like" and "what softsynths sound like"... So I didn't vote because it would have been a guess based on stereotyping.

The important thing to me in this poll was that both recordings conveyed the sense of the music in equal measures.

In this case it made no difference to me which was which despite the fact that I could hear a (small) difference. This shouldn't come as much of a surprise, as people are able to enjoy music through a number of different playback systems, which all have minor sonic differences.
Old 26th July 2014
  #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
wow what a thread
i think its actually a great thread, despite some bickering over statistics etc in the latter pages

Usually these kinda of threads descend into all sorts of horribleness but this one has been pretty good as they go
Old 26th July 2014
  #940
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Westlaker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
100% Diva. No external effects.

I just recorded this for fun, so take it for what it is.

I like the squishy sound of this. Can an OB8 be even squishier?

Nicely done -- pure '80s action/comedy movie soundtrack (a-la Harold Faltermeyer). Which, as a child of the '80s, I mean as a compliment.

OB8 might be a touch squishier, though.
Old 26th July 2014
  #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Diva is not being marketed as a "virtual OB8" or a virtual anything for that matter.

Diva is a software instrument with "the spirit of analogue" an its "oscillators, filters and envelopes closely model components found in some of the great monophonic and polyphonic synthesizers of yesteryear."

So it is a software instrument that you can use to make music that sounds like it has analog synthesizers in it. As a result, yes, you could use it to effectively copy some sounds made by vintage analog instruments.

I think we have a while to go before someone creates a plugin that can effectively recreate any sound that can be made by any analog synth.
This, + about 100000000

I've said it before and I'll say it again. These are two entirely different assertions:

1) a given bit of software can sound exactly like a given bit of hardware

2) a given bit of software can create a sound indistinguishable from a general "analogue sound."

But in these threads we're constantly getting them muddled up. I would bet my Voyager that even though 1) may be difficult to settle, 2) has been resolved some years ago.
Old 26th July 2014
  #942
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by CfNorENa View Post
Nicely done -- pure '80s action/comedy movie soundtrack (a-la Harold Faltermeyer). Which, as a child of the '80s, I mean as a compliment.

OB8 might be a touch squishier, though.
Thanks, but I dunno if I can squeeze any more squishiness out of the Diva.
Old 26th July 2014
  #943
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I guess if DIVA is intended to emulate an analog synth- and if it took Swan a lot of time to program a dead on OB- does DIVA have presets that mimic certain synths so the buyer doesn't have to do all this programming? Is there a DIVA community (like Reaktor has)and does ths community produce purposeful emulations of specific analog gear that can be uploaded from each other?

Thanks
Old 26th July 2014
  #944
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lune View Post
I guess if DIVA is intended to emulate an analog synth- and if it took Swan a lot of time to program a dead on OB- does DIVA have presets that mimic certain synths so the buyer doesn't have to do all this programming? Is there a DIVA community (like Reaktor has)and does ths community produce purposeful emulations of specific analog gear that can be uploaded from each other?

Thanks
In terms of the presets, not really. You have your usual "Jump Brass" and "Jupiter Strings" and maybe a "Mogue Lead" but that's about it.

There are, however, init templates with names like "Jupe-6" and "Jupe-8" and "Minimono." Diva comes with an assortment of oscillators, filters, and envelopes to choose from, and you can mix and match them anyway you want. These templates basically load up the appropriate ones with maybe a basic saw wave and an otherwise clean slate to start to create a sound from scratch.

I know that there are a bunch of commercial patch libraries available for Diva, and some free ones too, but I don't know of anything like what you're talking about.
Old 26th July 2014
  #945
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antto's Avatar
this test only shows that most people can't tell software from analog

i'm tempted to make some ABCD tests and post them ;]
Old 26th July 2014
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
wow what a thread
I know. Who'd have thought it would turn out so divisive?

Mission accomplished id say OP
Old 26th July 2014
  #947
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fwet's Avatar
The wildcard: is your OB8 up to par?

I have had two of the same Oberheims, they didnt sound the same.
Old 26th July 2014
  #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
Are you serious? The whole time you have said this proves nothing, except no one was right. Pure luck. Therefore, no useable outcome = flawed test. :0)
I promise that as president i will start a program to give back school money to people who have obviously not benefitted from free education. It can only mean the system is flawed, and people should not pay for a flawed system.
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Old 26th July 2014
  #949
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
I promise that as president i will start a program to give back school money to people who have obviously not benefitted from free education. It can only mean the system is flawed, and people should not pay for a flawed system.
Numerous times in this thread I've seen you appear to be drawing conclusions based on one single test. So I'm going to have to ask: did you ever go to school at all?
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Old 26th July 2014
  #950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
100% Diva. No external effects.

I just recorded this for fun, so take it for what it is.
That was certainly a welcome relief from the debate on statistics!

Thanks for posting!
Old 26th July 2014
  #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
Numerous times in this thread I've seen you appear to be drawing conclusions based on one single test. So I'm going to have to ask: did you ever go to school at all?
Did you get that from my posts?

I believe that i have only argued that this test definitely shows that software in some cases is indistinguishable from an analogue synth.
In this case it is.
Old 26th July 2014
  #952
IMO the second sounds a bit more "unstable" and is wandering.. so I think first it's Diva and the second is OB8.
Old 26th July 2014
  #953
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I like my synths WONKY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
New software synths like DIVA will always sound great, you are correct that the effects of aging are not an issue, and that one copy should sound exactly like the next, but 30 plus years ago, that's exactly what many of us wanted from our synths; we never sat around and waxed enthusiastic over ground hum, unintentional distortion and wobbly oscillators - and when the new wave of digital synths began to appear, we marveled over the increased complexity of sound possible.
But then some of us soon noticed how much got lost with those new digital synths. I was an early adopter of the DX-7 back in 1984. Two years later, I was back into analog.

My point earlier, though, wasn't about instability and aging components but about the inherent uniqueness of analog instruments. When Urs mentioned earlier that Hans Zimmer had four Minimoogs, but sent his "favorite" to be modeled, how could he have a favorite if they're all Minimoogs? Don't they all sound like Minimoogs? So why a favorite? (Rhetorical questions, of course. I know you know the answer )

The differences, of course, can vary from "night and day" to "unnoticeable." The degree of variation between two Minimoogs (of the same revision) and two Little Phattys would not be the same. But even so, no two Little Phattys will sound or behave precisely the same even when they are new.

Could I distinguish between two Phattys in a blind test? I seriously doubt it. But the inherent uniqueness is still there. Whether or not that means anything, of course, is up to the individual. For me, it contributes to a more personal relationship to my instrument. It's... you know... a human thing.

For me the most interesting part about this discussion is the notion that DIVA sounds "better" than genuine analog.

Personally, I find it too clean. Too perfect. Too idealistic. This doesn't mean it can't get the job of making music done. Of course it can! But that contrived ITB sound is just not for me.

Sure, a lot can be done with clever programming... algorithmic slop... even analog post-processing to add back some noise and grit etc. But to me that's a bit like putting icing with natural food coloring on top of an artificially flavored cake.

I like my synths natural ()... and WONKY!
Old 26th July 2014
  #954
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
I believe that i have only argued that this test definitely shows that software in some cases is indistinguishable from an analogue synth.
In this case it is.
No single test ever can definitely show anything. That is the reason why even such things as the time offset on high mountains, as very accurately predicted by Einstein, are measured over and over again.

Get over it.
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Old 26th July 2014
  #955
Urs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Urs, that's interesting, because if "many" people voted wrong due to one phenomenon an equal amount of people might have voted right due to (an)other phenomenon(s) (say "less brightness"). One gets this all the time with such tests if hidden variables are involved.

BTW I would expect that at least one "expert" really could tell: Urs
since DIVA isn't even modeled directly after the OB8

this thesis stands against the idea that really no one could tell (what the 50:50 result would suggest in case all hidden variables [e.g. one thinks "OB8=dull" and the other "OB8=$$$expensive$$$=in your face=bright"] had been ruled out)
I could tell, but not 100%. SWAN could have used a different VCO model to mimic the thru-zero PWM, or "fast" mode to muddy the sound. Therefore my vote was based on hope, because I found the first example to sound better.

Nevertheless, let's assume a handful of people, let's call them "experts with an advantage" say, owners of Diva, owners of OB-8s and a bunch of very well trained people could draw the correct assumptions. Let's say, these are 10% of the people who voted. This means, out of 100 people, 10 were capable of hearing it out. 40 were right by accident, 50 were wrong by accident. This means, among the people who don't have that advantage, a nearly significant number is fooled into believing that Diva sounds analogue.

Therefore, I wish to thank the people who insist that a group of people was right because of their skills. It turns the statistic significance of the left over results very much towards our favour!
Old 26th July 2014
  #956
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Eigenwert's Avatar
in fact, the outcome is some kind of win for DIVA
Old 26th July 2014
  #957
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
Did you get that from my posts?

I believe that i have only argued that this test definitely shows that software in some cases is indistinguishable from an analogue synth.
In this case it is.
Haha, wow. Just wow. Are you kidding me? This test didn't show that at all. After all, numerous people could hear a difference, as is obvious by the comments here. A lot of us just couldn't tell which was which.

Did you attend some sort of special education program, perhaps?

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Old 26th July 2014
  #958
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Therefore, I wish to thank the people who insist that a group of people was right because of their skills. It turns the statistic significance of the left over results very much towards our favour!
No trying to be an ass but if ten of us knew which one was the OB8 from experience, and the other 90 were guessing because they don't even know what an OB8 sounds like, it really doesn't mean anything other than people that aren't familiar with an OB8 didn't know. That doesn't benefit anyone. The test was which one is Diva, not which one sounds better.

btw, I downloaded the demo today. I only played with it a bit so far so won't say anything about experience with it yet. It's nice I can play the demo as full thing.. there's just that bit of noise that blurps out every now and then. Good way to offer demo.

[edit] actually it doesn't say 'which is Diva'... it just says 'comments welcome'.. and there were a fair number of comments that said something like " I liked 1" ... so yes I guess you are right in a way that is good for you guys. I think the exposure is good in any case.
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Old 26th July 2014
  #959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
But then some of us soon noticed how much got lost with those new digital synths. I was an early adopter of the DX-7 back in 1984. Two years later, I was back into analog.
At the time, I (and, presumably, most other people) were keenly aware of the loss of immediacy, control and ease of use, but willing to sacrifice it for the huge increase in potential sound palette that the DX et al. offered.

Later digital synths combined a huge sound palette with analogue-like immediacy, control and ease of use, thereby more or less solving the problem.

Since I just spent the morning sampling waveforms from an analogue VCO into my Emulator II, and enjoying the effect of the EII's SSM filter on them, I can hardly say that I am anti-analogue. However, I do think that analogue is just one of the many options that we have nowadays, and that it is not inherently superior to any other.

As you probably know, to this day I still actually enjoy programming FM synths, and I love the sounds they make. I have never, however, tried to persuade anyone else that my way is superior.

When choosing your colours for your artistic creation, it does not do to be dogmatic.

D.
Old 26th July 2014
  #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyklane View Post
I agree... I've made songs with nothing but analog synths before, and not owning a modular, it can get a bit "samey" at times, and there are genres I wouldn't attempt with only analog. Your digital is different than mine, but we're in agreement that digital synths AS DIGITAL SYNTHS is a good thing! Looks like you're into FM pretty heavy, I'd love to have a discussion with you sometime.
There is a very talented Finn called Kebu, who has several videos on Youtube, and who released a CD, which I bought.

In his earlier work, he used all kind of synths, but later on he went all-analogue, to the extent, ISTR, of using only analogue effects and recording on tape.

Personally, I don't think this was a good move on his part, because, after listening to his CD for a while it really does become samey. He has some great tracks, but I can only listen to them in small doses, because after that I just zone out, hankering for a bit of tonal variety to keep me interested.

D.

PS. I am happy to discuss FM with anyone who is interested...
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