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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 25th July 2014
  #871
Lives for gear
 

The problem with gearslutz, i think, is it's about the interface, what you like working with and what you spend time working with. Time and effort and good tracks is the only thing that makes synths sound good. If you like working with it who cares? I don't know why people have to get into sound quality arguments, just say you like working with it and it's fun for you. Who can argue with that?
Old 25th July 2014
  #872
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
Well, I sure hope that Diva is distinguishable from analogue, in many aspects. Otherwise we wouldn't have done a proper job. It was a conscious decision not to emulate the noise of the Juno-60 chorus. It also was a conscious decision to change master/slave roles in oscillators. It furthermore was a conscious decision to increase the possible input gain of the MS-20-style filters.

I do think however that, in musical context she's indistinguishable from those classic analogue synths. If someone came into our studio and produced an electronic album twice, once with our analogue gear, once with Diva, we'd get a similar 50/50 outcome as in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
Of course, the hardware has something about it. I said so myself, I love the tactile feel of the gear. I'd never want to program a CS-30 emulation by mouse.

However, being able to perform with just a laptop and a small controller is also something that shouldn't be sniffed at.

Pretty much every aspect has pros and cons. Having a dedicated hardware synth is great for editing, but bad for your back and travel expenses. Making a software emulation more reliable and stable than a vintage synth makes it, well, more reliable and stable, but it also keeps the give aways intact, such as chorus noise and stuttering PWM.
As I understand your first post above, you did avoid such analog artifacts in the software emulation, like the chorus noise, which I know from my Juno-6.

But I am confused with the end of your second post, where you wrote:

"Making a software emulation more reliable and stable than a vintage synth makes it, well, more reliable and stable, but it also keeps the give aways intact, such as chorus noise and stuttering PWM."

So did you keep the chorus noise intact in the software emulation, which would contradict your first statement? Or is there an option to choose between original chorus and noise-free chorus?

And what do you exactly mean by mentioning the "stuttering PWM"? Is the PWM behavior different or improved on the software emulation, compared to real analog, or is it the same?

I really appreaciate your presence on this forum and thanks in advance for your time and answers!
Old 25th July 2014
  #873
Lives for gear
 

Then why are we even having this discussion, if Diva is not meant to be indistinguishable from analog gear? I thought Urs a stated earlier, that they are trying to sound like or better than analog?
Old 25th July 2014
  #874
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I can barely hear a difference. The only thing I think I hear is a difference in the low end/phase...I have no preference, however, and both sound good. In a mix it would be impossible to tell.
Old 25th July 2014
  #875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
Then why are we even having this discussion, if Diva is not meant to be indistinguishable from analog gear? I thought Urs a stated earlier, that they are trying to sound like or better than analog?
It simply shows that people are not able to distinguish between hardware and diva even when diva is not fully emulating the hardware. The reality is that most people can not statistically identify differences in double blind tests for many things.

I never understand why people compare a plugin to a keyboard/hardware synth. They're not the same neither anyone that makes music seriously would say such a thing. Can you tweak moog knobs when using Diva? No, but you can't compose with your moog while on a plane or travelling a lot.

There's no silver bullet, just adequate solutions to different needs and situations.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #876
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m127f's Avatar
 

OK, so, I don't know how long Swan spent on matching the sounds, but I am positive Diva does not sound "better" than a real OB8.
Now I've tried them both.
Sorry, but not the case really. You can match a colour with some work, but not all of them. I think the real challenge lies within physics, and even as far as virtual reality has made it so far, it is still far from appearing... real to the experienced/acute eye/ear.

Nonetheless, Diva is one of the best, if not the best, analogue emulations EVER, so it makes tons of sense to buy it just because you get a tonne of possibilities by combining modules.
Diva sounds fantastic. It's not the real thing for sure, yet it's one of the best buys in the sw realm at this point in time, if only for practical purposes it totally makes sense to own a license.
Further, within a mix, whether a great patch is coming from Diva or a real Jup is utterly irrelevant, and this is a great tech accomplishment by Urs/U-he.

I am definitely going to buy it too because as explained, I like the sonic possibilities first and foremost, and second, because I like Urs' approach and the dev/design philosophy he transpires, and I like to actively support such enterprises.
I also would not want to spend all the money that is equivalent to not using Diva vs all the synths it encompasses.

Diva is fantastic.





.
Old 25th July 2014
  #877
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Elegy

Face it. It's over. Digital has won.

So I've composed

an Elegy

for

Solo Prophet-10

Improvised in one take

Because that's all it took

To recognize

His time had come

And gone.

Fare thee well, my friend!

Attached Files

Elegy (Solo Prophet-10).mp3 (3.49 MB, 166 views)

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Old 25th July 2014
  #878
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danielb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Face it. It's over. Digital has won.

So I've composed

an Elegy

for

Solo Prophet-10

Improvised in one take

Because that's all it took

To recognize

His time has come

And gone

Fare thee well, my friend!

That was gorgeous...

I think you're overreacting a little, but if that inspired you to compose that piece, then it was probably worth it

D.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #879
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tyler477's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Truth to be said, one single example is not science at the first place. If these were 300 audio examples back to back, then we could gather some scientific data out of it. Because we talk devices capable of producing thousand of different timbres. As i mentioned earlier, there are some knobs on synths. Start moving them side by side and see where you end. This is precisely what none of tests ever do. To this date I have absolutely never seen or heard, anyone, ever, submitting an actual side by side test of knobs tweak between actual unit and its emulation. Since we all like tests, why not finally making one?
This was my exact sentiment on page 3 of this thread, these tests mean absolutely nothing other than Diva is good at emulating ONE SETTING of the OB8

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Old 25th July 2014
  #880
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by roymaya View Post
I can't believe so many people had a problem with a 4 bar loop. You shouldn't have to count the bars. You can feel the 4 bar loop - the phrase indicates when it's about to repeat. I personally like 1 file better than multiple files.
Lol, agree totally. Counting simple loops should be second nature.
Old 25th July 2014
  #881
Gear Maniac
 

Leave it to maison vague to salvage a thread like this. . .



Well done.

(Not to try to salvage it. . . but. . . surprised there wasn't more talk of the envelopes. In addition to the phasing that has already been covered, that's what sounds different in these two-- excellently programmed-- patches, to me. The attack on the OB8 is really hard to duplicate. . . I swear the triggering of the oscillators and filters modulates. . . maybe it's heat dissipation, I dunno, but you hear it in the OB8 part here)
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Old 25th July 2014
  #882
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielb View Post
That was gorgeous...
Thanks, danielb!

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielb View Post
I think you're overreacting a little...
Old 25th July 2014
  #883
Lives for gear
 

Sad, but very nice! Since, the end had come, I will take the corpse off your hands, so you can move on to a completely digital musical realm. :0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Face it. It's over. Digital has won.

So I've composed

an Elegy

for

Solo Prophet-10

Improvised in one take

Because that's all it took

To recognize

His time had come

And gone.

Fare thee well, my friend!

Old 25th July 2014
  #884
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
I voted according to the question asked, and was correct. So, apparently, I could " reliably" pick the digital from the analog, and furthermore, I was not alone, as 49 percent were able to distinguish, as well.
You are basing the stats purely on a hit or miss level, all the while. Not giving any thought, or credit, to the fact that, maybe people actually can tell the difference.
Or put another way, what determined whether or not a person chose a or b? If a person could not tell the difference between the diva or OB8 example, then it should have been more like 75 -25. In favor of being wrong. It wasn't, which must imply that almost 50 percent of the voters actually could hear the difference. Thus the near 50-50 turn out.
This is actually incorrect mathematically

If 50 percent of the people knew what an analogue sound was, then the remaining 50% didn't and would be just random guessing. This means that half of random guessers would have chosen A and the other half would have chosen B. So "B" would have gotten the 50% of the vote of those who knew it was the analogue real deal, PLUS the 50% of the lucky guessers who didn't have a clue (which would be 25% of the total)- so the results should have been 25% A / 75% B.

In fact, the presence of any people (lets call them experts) who knew that B was the analogue should have given B some greater percentage than A as the remainder of the guessers would split the difference 50/50. But that is not what happened (AFAIK)- the results were 50/50 which strongly suggests total randomness- even among the experts picks.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lune View Post
This is actually incorrect mathematically

If 50 percent of the people knew what an analogue sound was, then the remaining 50% didn't and would be just random guessing. This means that half of random guessers would have chosen A and the other half would have chosen B. So "B" would have gotten the 50% of the vote of those who knew it was the analogue real deal, PLUS the 50% of the lucky guessers who didn't have a clue (which would be 25% of the total)- so the results should have been 25% A / 75% B.

In fact, the presence of any people (lets call them experts) who knew that B was the analogue should have given B some greater percentage than A as the remainder of the guessers would split the difference 50/50. But that is not what happened (AFAIK)- the results were 50/50 which strongly suggests total randomness- even among the experts picks.
I don't buy it..... Sorry.
Old 25th July 2014
  #886
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
I could " reliably" pick the digital from the analog, and furthermore, I was not alone, as 49 percent were able to distinguish, as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb View Post
Well, result means that 50% could still reliable identify and enjoy diva


Hell would be to be reborn as your statistics 101 teacher...
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Old 25th July 2014
  #887
Lives for gear
 

A reason analogue lovers will cheer the advance of digital emulation

I would like to raise a point that is overlooked

Many old analogue synths are very rare and may disappear altogether- when they die their sound will be lost forever

As digital gets better at emulating analogue this increases the chances for old synth lovers to capture the sounds and sonic designs of these old synths for everybody to enjoy- before its too late.

I am hopeful that the tools for accurate analogue emulation get filtered down eventually to the public- maybe in a future Reaktor version or something. The big software companies have no interest in wasting their time emulating obscure old analogues but if the tools are shared I think there are many (maybe some in this forum) who would be interested in saving these old gems and getting their designs and sounds out to the wider public.
Old 25th July 2014
  #888
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post


Hell would be to be reborn as your statistics 101 teacher...
Its no use grumphh. I've given up. In the face of the obvious, and irrefutable evidence, people are blinded by the need to be right, and tell people about it. Completely disregarding the fact that if all who claim to have gotten it right because they could "hear it", then it would be impossible for the poll to be 50/50, in a situation where there were only two choices. That means that if just 20 people got it right and knew it as well as so many are claiming, then 50 of the remaining 80, would have to had, by chance chosen wrong. Not likely, not at all.

2+2 = 5.....No you say? Well I say it is, so it is. That is literally what we are dealing with here.

I get the gear thing, and the analog thing. If I had two in front of me and someone said, "Pick one", I'd take the OB8 and go home. No one is saying Diva is better, or even the same. In this track, prepared and mixed by SWAN, people were unable to distinguish. Yes, half of the people chose right. But for everyone who thought they heard something which tipped them off to the correct answer, there is an equally qualified slutter on the other side, who also thought they heard something to tip them off.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #889
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post


Hell would be to be reborn as your statistics 101 teacher...
The problem is this.. According to your logic, no one knew the answer, it was 100 percent lucky, or unlucky guesses. Which can not be proven.
Old 25th July 2014
  #890
Lives for gear
 
pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Face it. It's over. Digital has won.

So I've composed

an Elegy

for

Solo Prophet-10

Improvised in one take

Because that's all it took

To recognize

His time had come

And gone.

Fare thee well, my friend!

Beautiful maison! Out with the old and in with the new...
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Old 25th July 2014
  #891
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
Its no use grumphh. I've given up. In the face of the obvious, and irrefutable evidence, people are blinded by the need to be right, and tell people about it. Completely disregarding the fact that if all who claim to have gotten it right because they could "hear it", then it would be impossible for the poll to be 50/50, in a situation where there were only two choices. That means that if just 20 people got it right and knew it as well as so many are claiming, then 50 of the remaining 80, would have to had, by chance chosen wrong. Not likely, not at all.

2+2 = 5.....No you say? Well I say it is, so it is. That is literally what we are dealing with here.

I get the gear thing, and the analog thing. If I had two in front of me and someone said, "Pick one", I'd take the OB8 and go home. No one is saying Diva is better, or even the same. In this track, prepared and mixed by SWAN, people were unable to distinguish. Yes, half of the people chose right. But for everyone who thought they heard something which tipped them off to the correct answer, there is an equally qualified slutter on the other side, who also thought they heard something to tip them off.
You honestly can't say much about the poll. A better way to do it would be to randomize the order every 8 bars and people would need to answer which one is which. Then you would know if each person was able to distinguish or were just lucky when they selected one way or the other. There's no statistical power with one trial of a 50/50 choice. On the other hand, if you had an option where the person could admit they couldn't distinguish between them, it would be a stronger result as the test does not involve multiple choice trials.
Old 25th July 2014
  #892
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grumphh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
The problem is this.. According to your logic, no one knew the answer, it was 100 percent lucky, or unlucky guesses. Which can not be proven.
heh heh heh

...you must have driven a number of teachers to commit seppuku...
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Old 25th July 2014
  #893
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
With all due respect, I'd be surprised if anyone involved in this discussion DIDN'T have experience with both analog synths and software. I learned synthesis on an EML-101 in the mid-70's....
Fair enough. I do realize some people don't hear much difference or don't care, I'm reacting to those saying there is no difference and saying that those of us that do hear a difference in this test and in the studio all day (refreshing gearslutz!) are guessing or making it up.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #894
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
The problem is this.. According to your logic, no one knew the answer, it was 100 percent lucky, or unlucky guesses. Which can not be proven.
You really need to take a night course on statistics - check your local schools for adult education choices for fall, I think you'll appreciate it
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Old 25th July 2014
  #895
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Eigenwert's Avatar
The question is: Have the voting members perceived a difference between the two, just being unable to link them to the correct device? Or has there not been a perceived difference at all (like "slightly brighter", "slightly punchier", "slightly duller", "slightly less defined") etc sound of the two at all?

If e.g. DIVA generally would sound a bit brighter it would be something one would be able to learn to distinguish, the poll would tell us that everyone including the potential "expert ears" were terribly uneducated concerning the sound of the two sound sources.

If there's no perceived difference at all (there is one GS member to rate the OB "duller" on average for every GS member rating the OB "brighter" on average over a large amount of different samples over the full tonal spectrum of the emulated analogue device) this would mean there really is no audible difference, no matter whether the sound was created with the analogue or the digital source.
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Old 25th July 2014
  #896
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielb View Post
I remember my open-mouthed amazement when I first head a DX7...

The field of electronic music then was forward looking and innovative.

When I came back to it a few years ago, I was a little shocked to find that it had become backward-looking and conservative, drenched in nostalgia and constantly trying to recapture some supposed golden age.

Analogue is great but using ONLY analogue is boring. I still think that we are living in THE golden age of electronic music gear, but I think I might be in the minority.

D.
I agree... I've made songs with nothing but analog synths before, and not owning a modular, it can get a bit "samey" at times, and there are genres I wouldn't attempt with only analog. Your digital is different than mine, but we're in agreement that digital synths AS DIGITAL SYNTHS is a good thing! Looks like you're into FM pretty heavy, I'd love to have a discussion with you sometime.
Old 25th July 2014
  #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumphh View Post
heh heh heh

...you must have driven a number of teachers to commit seppuku...
You're right, I'm fuvking restarted. Do you feel better now? I hope so.
Old 25th July 2014
  #898
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You really need to take a night course on statistics - check your local schools for adult education choices for fall, I think you'll appreciate it
You're right, also. No one could have possibly picked the right answer because they were right. I suck at math, I can admit it, but I can also count to 4, 8 times, and can apparently hear the difference between two different synths, so suck it. :0)
Old 25th July 2014
  #899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lune View Post
A reason analogue lovers will cheer the advance of digital emulation

I would like to raise a point that is overlooked

Many old analogue synths are very rare and may disappear altogether- when they die their sound will be lost forever

As digital gets better at emulating analogue this increases the chances for old synth lovers to capture the sounds and sonic designs of these old synths for everybody to enjoy- before its too late.

I am hopeful that the tools for accurate analogue emulation get filtered down eventually to the public- maybe in a future Reaktor version or something. The big software companies have no interest in wasting their time emulating obscure old analogues but if the tools are shared I think there are many (maybe some in this forum) who would be interested in saving these old gems and getting their designs and sounds out to the wider public.
Don't any of us sample anymore?!!? Every single instrument that comes into my hands gets sampled to DEATH! For that reason, my 2 EMu racks get constant use. I went through the torture of looping some 100 samples (up to over 700 on some!) for each patch I sample from each instrument. I kinda figured this would be "normal" at GS!
Old 25th July 2014
  #900
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
The problem is this.. According to your logic, no one knew the answer, it was 100 percent lucky, or unlucky guesses. Which can not be proven.
I actually think I know where you are coming from and can help you. You are operating from some premises that are restricting your thinking. When we "know" something it is not always like an on/off switch- which is the assumption you are working with.

Let me give you an example:

If I am presented with my Wife's signature and a child's imitation of it I feel very certain (100% know) which is the real thing. Now, if I see my Wife's signature and a very good forgery I may still feel I know but my certainty is less (maybe 8% know for sure). Now if my wife's signature is shown compared to a copy made by a MASTER forgery artist my certainty may completely disappear (0%).

knowledge is not an all or nothing thing- I doubt anybody who voted- even the experts- would have felt comfortable taking a large bet that they were right. This is what a master copy does to our sense of certainty. I do not believe anybody who voted felt 100% certain- but I could be wrong (and they could have been wrong).

In a sense- everybody was operating with little certainty- this logically leads to a random result.

Does this help?
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