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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 24th July 2014
  #631
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
At McGill they teach you to hear slight EQ curve appliance virtually NO ONE can hear before successfully going through their lessons.
I have studied music for many years myself, and have been a very strong and vocal advocate of music education on this forum. If that is true, however, it really doesn't sit well with me. It indicates a philosophy of music that is noticeably different than my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs
It must be really hard to have those super powers. The beauty of music must be completely lost to those people.
I have to agree with that.
Old 24th July 2014
  #632
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pointsource's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Anyone inspired to make music will want to know what the people who inspired them are using. I'm quite used to audience members asking me what equipment I'm using after shows and even what software I'm using.
All I get from the rational that the audience doesn't care is musicians are making uninspiring music for a less than passionate audience.

Well, I don't fit in this category... I don't give a rat's ass about the gear that X is using to make whatever track. People think that if they use the same gear that X is using they "gonna sound cool" or "better". But this is just BS.
Old 24th July 2014
  #633
Urs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
Anyone inspired to make music will want to know what the people who inspired them are using. I'm quite used to audience members asking me what equipment I'm using after shows and even what software I'm using.
All I get from the rational that the audience doesn't care is musicians are making uninspiring music for a less than passionate audience.
Yeah, I mist admit it bugs me quite a bit when famous musicians use our software and yet only list their analogue synths. As if they would copy Diva's factory presets with their Minimoogs.

"Softsynth" is a stigma, but reality paints a different picture.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #634
Lives for gear
oh wow, URS, you really shouldn't bite. much respect to your company.. but this thread has become a little dumb, like the whole notion of analogue vs digital. use both, enjoy both, you can get results with both, they're both different. get over yourselves.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #635
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pulsar modular's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredouli View Post
oh wow, URS, you really shouldn't bite. much respect to your company.. but this thread has become a little dumb, like the whole notion of analogue vs digital. use both, enjoy both, you can get results with both, they're both different. get over yourselves.
Apparently my early JP8 has a JP6 inside...not that you'd find much evidence for that in the service manual, which has details for the changes through the serial numbers...it appears I should get myself another JP8 to get closer to that hallowed Diva sound.

Last edited by Don Solaris; 24th July 2014 at 10:02 PM.. Reason: no need for insults!
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Old 24th July 2014
  #636
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GJ999x's Avatar
Urs is spending way too much time on this forum. Risk of engagement with trolls is also rising. Mods, can we not limit Urs' time here? Come on Urs, for most of us, more time spent here is less time spent is less time spent 'makin choonz' and is therefor a service to the music community and wider humanity, but you could be off working on Diva 2 or a VBC competitor ( )

I've used Diva for something or other every single day since I got it more than a year ago. I think when we first played it my collab buddy's girlfriend, who is a house music lover/conesuir but has zero interst in production, straight away and unprompted exclaimed a bunch of words that I normally only see used on gearslutz analog vs. digital threads ("so warm! so alive! so deep!") blah blah.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendejo View Post
More like total hUbRiS. Apparently my early JP8 has a JP6 inside...not that you'd find much evidence for that in the service manual, which has details for the changes through the serial numbers...it appears I should get myself another JP8 to get closer to that hallowed Diva sound.
Not your statement, but the other statement seemed crap to me. Are people really that crazy? A jp8 is a jp8. No matter how you slice it. I think your jp8 is just fine, no need to track another one down.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #638
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Or Urs could work on an update, so as to not confuse the jp8 filter with a jp6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendejo View Post
Apparently my early JP8 has a JP6 inside...not that you'd find much evidence for that in the service manual, which has details for the changes through the serial numbers...it appears I should get myself another JP8 to get closer to that hallowed Diva sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Urs is spending way too much time on this forum. Risk of engagement with trolls is also rising. Mods, can we not limit Urs' time here? Come on Urs, for most of us, spending time here instead of working is a service to the music community and wider humanity, but you could be off working on Diva 2 or a VBC competitor ( )

I've used Diva for something or other every single day since I got it more than a year ago. I think when we first played it my collab buddy's girlfriend, who is a house music lover/conesuir but has zero interst in production, straight away and unprompted exclaimed a bunch of words that I normally only see used on gearslutz analog vs. digital threads ("so warm! so alive! so deep!") blah blah.
Old 24th July 2014
  #639
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Septik's Avatar
Can't tell the difference through my cheap earbuds at work... Really a great demo of how useful Diva can be in a musical environment. Shame it's so draining on CPU, but I suppose if you just record and print to audio, you're not at any inferior standpoint to just recording the audio out of the analog counterpart, so that's totally acceptable. This has sold me on Diva. Gonna buy it once I have more time to spend at home or once I get a laptop.
Old 24th July 2014
  #640
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Septik's Avatar
And you should really include a "can't tell" option for the poll next time to truly sell your point
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Old 24th July 2014
  #641
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GJ999x's Avatar
Burrrrrrrrned! OUCH! I can hear the crowd cheering. 10 points to you Sir, you win the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
Or Urs could work on an update, so as to not confuse the jp8 filter with a jp6.
Old 24th July 2014
  #642
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendejo View Post
[text removed]
And here we have GS at its worst.

We've been so fortunate to have the designer of what is arguably one of the most successful software instruments visit with us in our forum here. Like all of us, he is welcome to share his thoughts - openly - and that is what Urs has done.

Hopefully, he will continue to do so.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #643
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Thunderkyss's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post

My honest feelings regarding Diva are this: it's an impressive bit of code that's a milestone in the history of analog emulation. But I cannot agree that it's entirely indistinguishable from genuine analog. I also find the subjective notion that it sounds even better than what it was designed to emulate in the first place difficult to accept.

Diva is good. Very good. But it's not the final solution to all the problems involved in the digital emulation of analog sound.
So what is the final solution? Is it a Slim Phatty? A Pulse-2? How about a Pro-2? A vintage Memory Moog?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Diva's creator set out to create "the final solution," but to add a very attractive alternative to the above mentioned.
Old 24th July 2014
  #644
Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
Can you be kind enough to share your patches for this test?

Do you have your test in separate tracks that can be posted so we can hear each isolated? Would give more credibility. Did you use any processing on each?


(see reason below)
yes here are the patches and the bounced audio - in case anyone is worried about my 'credibility'.

Personally I'd never do a stupid trick test. Effects described in the OP.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO...it?usp=sharing

Enjoy
Old 24th July 2014
  #645
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
I guess we're lucky then that the majority of people who use Diva make music for an audience that can still enjoy listening to music.

It must be really hard to have those super powers. The beauty of music must be completely lost to those people.
You could say the same about anyone involved into music production: As soon as you are able to realize the different separate tracks in a production you will never be able to listen to the music as "whole" anymore the same way someone can listen to it who has no clue about music at all.
To me the beauty of music can only be seen if you look at it as a whole. Like with women. None is perfect in all respects but you may fall in love with all of its aspects when looking at its whole way of being.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #646
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
And here we have GS at its worst.
He does have a point, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderkyss View Post
So what is the final solution?
I have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
To me the beauty of music can only be seen if you look at it as a whole. Like with women. None is perfect in all respects but you may fall in love with all of its aspects when looking at its whole way of being.
Beautiful!
Old 24th July 2014
  #647
Urs
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pendejo View Post
Apparently my early JP8 has a JP6 inside...not that you'd find much evidence for that in the service manual, which has details for the changes through the serial numbers...it appears I should get myself another JP8 to get closer to that hallowed Diva sound.
You're right, the schematics of both revisions match. But the sound in ColCoolJ's examples is that of the State Variable configuration Roland used in the JP-6, and afaiaa some MKS-80. I haven't listened to yours yet, and I don't think I will.

You should be excited. If it wasn't for the digital envelopes, the JP-6 sounds much better than the Jupiter-8. IMHO.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #648
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderkyss View Post
So what is the final solution?
I guess the final (and only) solution that would work for me is turning this computer off and turning the music computer on to finally make some music

Edit:

heh
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Old 24th July 2014
  #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pointsource View Post
Well, I don't fit in this category... I don't give a rat's ass about the gear that X is using to make whatever track. People think that if they use the same gear that X is using they "gonna sound cool" or "better". But this is just BS.
Doesn't matter if its BS or not, that's just how people are and to think other people don't care is daft and proven wrong on every forum and gig venue all over the world every night.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #650
Deleted c1b33bf
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
Yeah, I mist admit it bugs me quite a bit when famous musicians use our software and yet only list their analogue synths. As if they would copy Diva's factory presets with their Minimoogs.

"Softsynth" is a stigma, but reality paints a different picture.
Yes but how many of these musicians who use analogue have gone 100% digital ?
Did the majority of these famous musicians sell their Mini's and Jupiter's after getting Diva ? I'd wager they didn't. (Especially if the bread and butter of their productions depends on analogue-type sounds.)

In a performance context different results will always be achieved by playing the original hardware instrument. This alone is enough reason to keep them around.
I suppose the development of virtual reality technology could change that one day.
Old 24th July 2014
  #651
Urs
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensory View Post
Yes but how many of these musicians who use analogue have gone 100% digital ?
Did the majority of these famous musicians sell their Mini's and Jupiter's after getting Diva ? I'd wager they didn't. (Especially if the bread and butter of their productions depends on analogue-type sounds.)

In a performance context different results will always be achieved by playing the original hardware instrument. This alone is enough reason to keep them around.
I suppose the development of virtual reality technology could change that one day.
Of course, the hardware has something about it. I said so myself, I love the tactile feel of the gear. I'd never want to program a CS-30 emulation by mouse.

However, being able to perform with just a laptop and a small controller is also something that shouldn't be sniffed at.

Pretty much every aspect has pros and cons. Having a dedicated hardware synth is great for editing, but bad for your back and travel expenses. Making a software emulation more reliable and stable than a vintage synth makes it, well, more reliable and stable, but it also keeps the give aways intact, such as chorus noise and stuttering PWM.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #652
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pendejo View Post
it appears I should get myself another JP8 to get closer to that hallowed Diva sound.
Just like some think Swan should get a different sound card for his OB8? There are variations between synths. Nick Rhodes has three Jupiter 8's. If you ever meet him, ask him if he thinks they all sound the same.

The Diva wave shapes provide a contrast. Some people complain Diva is too bright at times. But when it provides solutions which go in the opposite direction, what does someone do? Uses it to show how it sounds dull compared to a real Jupiter!

So, no need to buy a different synth to match Diva. Just take that big heavy mouse of yours across the screen and select the analog2 shape. Can't get much more simple than that!

How come your posted recording was limited to around 16kHz?
Old 24th July 2014
  #653
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
But that test was not a comparison of the raw waveforms. It was a test to show the huge amount of phasing going on with the oscillators in Diva and stating this behaviour is not replicated by analogue hardware. A comparison of single saw waves is not the same thing as a comparison of sounds using two or more oscillators.

So why claim BS if you haven't grasped what my test was trying to show. And yes, Diva is damn good, but only at some things, but not everything if you're going for the perfect analogue emulation.
I missed that test. Link? I'm curious because there are times I feel, especially when playing polyphonically, there's a certain "mushiness" or "non-distinct" kind of thing going on in Diva that I do not hear on my KingKORG or Analog Four when playing a chord in a similarly set up patch. I started a little investigation into it, but got side-tracked and decided it was probably just best to make some music. Funny how that happens.
Old 24th July 2014
  #654
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Guys, as has been stated earlier, a few times now ... the results of the poll are self-evident - it's a 50/50 split, there's no clear difference.

Any of the participants at any other time could easily have produced a different vote, and any differences heard would be no different from comparing two analog synths from the same manufacturer - no two analog synths, especially 30 plus years old, would ever sound exactly alike.

The Diva representation is close enough that it mimics a second 30 year-old synth - I'd say that's pretty telling, no matter how you want to spin it.

In the real world, the same analog synth appearing on different recordings would have had much wider variances in sound character from recording to recording - the way it was mixed, eq'd, used in a track, type of music having been played, etc. would have all produced differences much more apparent than anything this strictly a/b test shows.
Old 24th July 2014
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I missed that test. Link? I'm curious because there are times I feel, especially when playing polyphonically, there's a certain "mushiness" or "non-distinct" kind of thing going on in Diva that I do not hear on my KingKORG or Analog Four when playing a chord in a similarly set up patch. I started a little investigation into it, but got side-tracked and decided it was probably just best to make some music. Funny how that happens.
I described it earlier in the thread. Did think about doing something to demonstrate it (Would rather just get on with making music as well!), but Urs explained they are working on an update to Diva addressing it. So seems a bit redundant now.
Old 24th July 2014
  #656
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urs View Post
You're right, the schematics of both revisions match. But the sound in ColCoolJ's examples is that of the State Variable configuration Roland used in the JP-6, and afaiaa some MKS-80. I haven't listened to yours yet, and I don't think I will.

You should be excited. If it wasn't for the digital envelopes, the JP-6 sounds much better than the Jupiter-8. IMHO.
I don't understand why everybody is so focused on the filter. Yes, it is differently implemented, JP8, JP6, MKS 80 (regarding the revs where the 3109 has been used).
I love Diva and i respect your opinion, Urs, but i also love the JP8 and its more organic sound.
Am i wrong in saying that the CEM3340 is based on a triangle core and the other waveforms are generated from this core, while the JP8 has a sawtooth core, very much like the early Prophet 5 revisions ?

It's a mystery to me that i never hear about this point, while my ears hear a difference between JP8 and JP6 oscillators, and forgive me, the JP6 sounds simply more sterile, of course IMHO.

Last edited by Prophonic; 24th July 2014 at 04:04 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 24th July 2014
  #657
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
We are almost there. Closer than you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yuBjalrXPA

I'd give it a 15 years or so for the chip level precision...
Incredible.

So in 15 years we will be copying jupiters and what ot.
Old 24th July 2014
  #658
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
K240's on my laptop- I cannot hear a difference. (I missed the test window but know I would have failed to identify either)

I have never used DIVA- or any other U-he product.

(I owned an OB-8 for many years)

if we *must* draw conclusions I will say some pie chart of the following would be it...

1. U-He Diva sounds great
2. Swan has programming chops
3. My ears are blissfully (ignorant) and therefore, happy

Also- I have no interest in CPU hungry VSTs (if that is what Diva is)
It's not that bad. If you have a modern i5/i7 multi-core machine and set it to take advantage of that, it's very useable.
Old 24th July 2014
  #659
Quote:
Originally Posted by haze015 View Post
I described it earlier in the thread. Did think about doing something to demonstrate it (Would rather just get on with making music as well!), but Urs explained they are working on an update to Diva addressing it. So seems a bit redundant now.
Ive noticed this phenomenon also re waveform summing/phasing. I am looking at it in my tests. Did Urs say he is gonna look at it? That would be great...

Diva is really impressive - but I think it could get even better. Personally - there are still differences I hear-and Im trying to pin them down. If we could together improve it - of course if Urs agrees - that is the great thing about the global communication and the net. Enthusiasts working together.

This test remember is just 3 basic sounds. You couldnt really say it solves the whole argument. Its also worth noting there is likely a great deal of people who perhaps have less experience. So when we are looking at the finer details - they can slip past or be difficult to know if you havent yet tuned your ears to them. The argument that they are thus invalid - I personally dont agree with. There is no point in limiting the sound of something to the lesser experienced ear. One of the great things about analogue gear is its idiosyncracies and they often are what makes them sound so great. So why not explore them without the aggressive rhetoric of suggesting its simply placebo-or unimportant. Thats what Im doing personally.
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Old 24th July 2014
  #660
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
Ive noticed this phenomenon also re waveform summing/phasing. I am looking at it in my tests. Did Urs say he is gonna look at it? That would be great...
One thing around that is whilst Diva allows oscillator tuning, it doesn't do per osc drifting. It acts on the whole voice. You can use up LFO's crudely simulating it, but it'd be good to have some options there. I think Monark benefits from it.
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