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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 22nd July 2014
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teofunk View Post
So..

What are we going to do with these amateurs who got this simple test wrong?

At least their statements don't hold much weight anymore..
OMG. Unbelievable. What a dissappointment.
Though what I love the most is the "experts" who didn't have the balls to vote, yet they chime in until the answer is out and only then "contribute" their "expert" "insights", like "of course, I could clearly perceive the PWM there is more blah blah blah."

I of course was definitely able to tell Diva was first because of the PWM at some point, but I accidentally forgot to cast my vote.







.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #332
I dont think there is any point in doing a 'which do you like better' with analogue and softsynth because I think people will consciously or subconsciously pick the one they think is analogue or digital depending on where they sit on the matter...I could be wrong but thats what I suspect...

Anyways - my investigations are more to see what the differences are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Anything involving intense PWM, FM or both

Anything with percussive cutoff envelope modulation at full resonance ("laser percussion")

Anything involving resonant filter FM

One sound with strong PWM, a good amount of Oscillator FM, resonance around 50% (or a bit less) and a good amount of filter FM would be really interesting
unfortunately a lot of that is out due to the options present on the OB8...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #333
VST
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Swan, just a suggestion, but maybe overdub your voice saying 'A' and 'B' when the phases start, it doesn't have to be loud.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #334
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Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Diva is not a "virtual Jupiter-8", so if someone wants one of those, they should go elsewhere.
Oh I'm not after a virtual Jupiter 8 clone. I just quite enjoy these kind of blind tests and I noticed that it has virtual Jupiter oscillators in the specs.

I'll say this though: maybe its time to start asking if the analogues can sound as good as Diva?!
Old 22nd July 2014
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace Clef View Post
I'll say this though: maybe its time to start asking if the analogues can sound as good as Diva?!
It most certainly is.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
But what do you think a typical listener (the end user) thinks about this test?
I think they would think it's much ado about nothing. And they would be right.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
After all, this test wasn't completely fair. Some of the voters had vast amount of experience working with both synths (OB8+Diva), some may have experience of neither.
I think the main point to be able to distinguish between them is rather knowledge about analogue vs digital than anything related to the specific model of synth or software. While having no experience with DIVA I could easily tell which is the digital sound generator from hearing DIVA's PWM (I never used DIVA in my life). On the other hand I would not have been able that the PWM sound from the OB8 comes from the OB8 (and not from another synth) while I had some (brief) experience with an OB8x some years ago.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #338
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for the sake of the thread can the OP share his patch & patch settings so evryone who owns both can try at home so to speak
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m127f View Post
OMG. Unbelievable. What a dissappointment.
Though what I love the most is the "experts" who didn't have the balls to vote, yet they chime in until the answer is out and only then "contribute" their "expert" "insights", like "of course, I could clearly perceive the PWM there is more blah blah blah."

I of course was definitely able to tell Diva was first because of the PWM at some point, but I accidentally forgot to cast my vote.







.
I am not aware of anyone chiming in about the PWM after the result had been revealed. Anyone?

Edit: Even if someone did chime in - so what? I'm sure anyone not totally wrong on GS could be trained to hear it. It's not like the difference from converter A to converter B. Or like the subtle EQ curve changes they teach you to hear at McGill University. It's something one can actually hear quite easily in comparison.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #340
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Seriously though, people already "deciding" to dismiss OB8 based on this test are really, really wrong.
However, I am starting to appreciate, even to like, such attitudes. Kind of serve a useful purpose... if you know what I mean ; )
I did try an OB8 a while ago, and after hundreds of tested synths, it is still the sweetest synth I have ever tried.
I would love to have one, but I simply don't have the space. Too bad.



.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I am not aware of anyone chiming in about the PWM after the result had been revealed. Anyone?
Not only that, since the reveal, eight GS members have cast the incorrect answer! I'm genuinely impressed with the integrity of this thread and how well it's gone so far, considering just how low A vs D threads can stoop.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
please continue to request sounds for another test - which you think will stress Diva vs an analogue synth...
not sure if serious ... but if maybe, I'm honestly wondering how each version holds up when processing is applied (be it soft or hard, a little or a lot).

Old 22nd July 2014
  #343
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
But what do you think a typical listener (the end user) thinks about this test?
I think the typical music listener would think that damn near everyone here is positively nuts.

This is like listening to several dozen painters bicker about two shades of blue that look virtually identical - not only whether you can tell the difference between those two different shades of blue, but which one is "better."

And you'd have painters bringing in microscopes to analyze the two different colors, and test equipment to measure the exact frequencies of visible light that were being reflected by the two colors.

That's what this thread would look like to Joe Music Fan.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I love how Livingsounds hedged his guess by flip flopping and then covering his tracks by blaming the converters. Livingsounds can't tell the difference between converters messing with a classic analog vs poor code emulating a classic analog? Surely there must be a difference. I kid. I have to give Livingsounds some guff. He's a big part of the reason I have my precious little room heaters down in my studio.
Come on. I made my thought process completely transparent. I wasn't hedging any bets. I said the difference was obvious, and it is. I wouldn't use analog hardware if it were that muffled sounding.

In this test I prefer Diva, and that's what I said all the time.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m127f View Post
However, I am starting to appreciate, even to like, such attitudes. Kind of serve a useful purpose... if you know what I mean ; )
Ouch! But I guess some of us have more to lose in this debate than others
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #346
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The reason i picked the gear first, is it definitely sounded richer, at least for the first 4 bars. Haha, haven't really used either synth, and i'm definitely no analogue purist, however, as mentioned, what is going on here is you did a d/a conversion on the hardware to get it into your computer, and then there's a second d/a when it comes back out, where as diva only had to be converted out, unless you fed the audio out, and then back in through the same process as the hardware. So the there really is all sorts of variances going on here, such as whether you fed the ob8 through a mixing board first, etc. I would say converter quality and signal chain count. On the same note, this is how you would have to record an analogue synth, in any circumstance, so it's valid, as a final product. To me, the Diva/first round sounded clearer, with more bass, and definitely tighter envelopes.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I think the question "Do you know, which one you like better?" should be separated from the question "Do you know, which one is which?"
Indeed, but all past experience pointed towards the better sounding one being the hardware.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #348
Quote:
Originally Posted by living sounds View Post
Indeed, but all past experience pointed towards the better sounding one being the hardware.
Now that I know I can hear what I expect to hear...the mind is so odd! I still voted wrong and I'll own up to it.
Most important: GREAT piece of music here, and when it's finished I would like a purchase or download link, please.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #349
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Tried it yesterday in lax cellphone parking lot in car and guessed it right.
OBX sound bit muddy and diva bit brighter. But put them both on tape and there would be no difference at all.

Thanks, Urs. Diva is amazing... (especially if you have quad or six core i7 :D )
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #350
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Jimmy, it already has been finished long time before, although not by swan...
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papasimbo View Post
i think it was quite obvious that the first one was diva, and anyone that got it wrong should cut all of their ties with music immediately
Lol...I got it wrong, AND I own an OB8. Cut my ties with music? Ok, lol... Put both of us in a room and not only will I play circles around you, you'll piss your own pants and cry yourself to sleep!


Anyway - regardless if I got it wrong or not, I could care less. I love my OB8 and it's more than about sound. I'm more of a musician than a programmer so I like playing this giant synth in front of me, and twisting the knobs to change things. That synth is just one giant sweet spot! You might have to twist the knobs a bit to find the sound that fits the music you're working on but you'll never get anything bad or harsh out of that machine!

But a lot of the good sounds I've come up with were really a result of my randomly twisting knobs and assigning modulations and then I came up with something.

I love how you can individually pan each voice with the knobs on the side.

Also - soft synths and me don't mix well. I've yet been able to get any soft synth to a low enough latency that doesn't effect my timing and groove. I'd just rather track through a real synth and monitor live - it works much better for me.

$4000? Is that what they're up to? I paid $2200 about two years ago for mine. And it's the latest revision with the page two graphics! Worth every penny at that price if you ask me.

Regards,
Frank
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Old 23rd July 2014
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post

Also - soft synths and me don't mix well. I've yet been able to get any soft synth to a low enough latency that doesn't effect my timing and groove. I'd just rather track through a real synth and monitor live - it works much better for me.

exactly. the only way for a DAW to have great feel and tight drum pads is at 24/96 with a 64 buffer. and at that level it's hard on the CPU. you will DEFINITELY not be running multiple Diva instances at that rate!
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Old 23rd July 2014
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
I think the typical music listener would think that damn near everyone here is positively nuts.
****, I've got 2.5 decades of music making under my belt and I think damn near everyone here is positively nuts!
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Old 23rd July 2014
  #354
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Before the reveal only 51% of the voters were giving the wrong answer, but after the reveal this rate has climbed to 59%. That way the wrong answer has gained another 1,14%.

Edit: While writing this the rate went up again
Old 23rd July 2014
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Before the reveal only 51% of the voters were giving the wrong answer, but after the reveal this rate has climbed to 59%. That way the wrong answer has gained another 1,14%.

Edit: While writing this the rate went up again

Anyone who posts a poll should close it to voting before posting answers, in general. You can close a poll, right? I've never posted one before.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
I think the typical music listener would think that damn near everyone here is positively nuts.

This is like listening to several dozen painters bicker about two shades of blue that look virtually identical - not only whether you can tell the difference between those two different shades of blue, but which one is "better."

And you'd have painters bringing in microscopes to analyze the two different colors, and test equipment to measure the exact frequencies of visible light that were being reflected by the two colors.

That's what this thread would look like to Joe Music Fan.
Theres only 1 Picasso.....and in this case its the OB8 (not that i listened to the test.I dont need to)
Old 23rd July 2014
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
...And you'd have painters bringing in microscopes to analyze the two different colors, and test equipment to measure the exact frequencies of visible light that were being reflected by the two colors.

That's what this thread would look like to Joe Music Fan.
Well, when you're in a profession and you know how something is built, you'll recognize the differences, the good, bad, everything including subtle differences. So in all this if one didn't recognize then he'd / she'd be as ignorant to the fact as the average listener / viewer...and even an average listener would probably think the people making music knew more than them.

So yeah, I'd be impressed if two painters were analyzing the colors, frequencies whatever. That would be impressive. I'd be like, cool. Wow you guys know a lot.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
So yeah, I'd be impressed if two painters were analyzing the colors, frequencies whatever. That would be impressive. I'd be like, cool. Wow you guys know a lot.
Even when the finished rooms look the same? If the OP had just posted the track for our pleasure, do you think any one of us would have gone "hang on, that's two different synths and only one of them's an analogue. That one's Diva and that one's an OB8!".
Old 23rd July 2014
  #359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mace Clef View Post
Even when the finished rooms look the same? If the OP had just posted the track for our pleasure, do you think any one of us would have gone "hang on, that's two different synths and only one of them's an analogue. That one's Diva and that one's an OB8!".
Not a friggin snowballs chance!!!

I've already started the audio files for a spinoff thread using a song I've already got posted on soundcloud...very much interested to see if anyone can spot a change.

I'll add that even knowing it's not the OB8, as soon as the drums kicked in I FAR preferred diva... The attack of the analog got buried under the kick, and thus Diva filled the musical purpose better on top of sounding better for that part. Soloed, I feel opposite
Old 23rd July 2014
  #360
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Quote:
What are we going to do with these amateurs who got this simple test wrong?
A whole heck of a lot of people also got it correct. I personally thought it was easy since I have a lot of experience with both vintage hardware and software. As mentioned in my first post diva was cleaner and more focused, which was the dead giveaway for me.

Also as I mentioned the first one (Diva) has an unfair advantage. I spent the first few years of my career doing subjective evaluation of audio, presented at AES and all that... having a loudness advantage is huge. The first set (Diva) was louder when considering the broadband and not the really LF stuff. It is tough though because you can measure the loudness in many different ways, most likely the OB8 had a little more power in the LF area and less as you go up... so a typical RMS loudness measurement would say they're equal even though Diva is probably louder in the broadband sense...
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