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Analogue vs Digital - Diva and OB8 test Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Which synth is First in the 8 bar cycle?
Diva
92 Votes - 51.11%
OB8
88 Votes - 48.89%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

Old 22nd July 2014
  #301
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
I got it wrong, so I guess that means RME converters really do suck. Also, don't ask people to count bars. Everyone knows you can't hear the difference between software and hardware when you have to count bars.

****ing trick question asshole thread.


I LOVE IT. If you thought it was a trick why did you vote? Are you that easily tricked?

Not sure why my vote didn't get on there... I voted the first one being Diva... maybe I was late? I honestly didn't cheat, but I also honestly was mostly just guessing.

I'm not saying I'm proud of myself, but I'm also not saying this test was flawed. In a sense putting this into a single flowing musical context made it a lot better test than a strict A clip/B Clip thing. I love how Livingsounds hedged his guess by flip flopping and then covering his tracks by blaming the converters. Livingsounds can't tell the difference between converters messing with a classic analog vs poor code emulating a classic analog? Surely there must be a difference. I kid. I have to give Livingsounds some guff. He's a big part of the reason I have my precious little room heaters down in my studio.

Not that I'm saying that good A/D conversion isn't something, or that analogs don't still have some aspects that best VA, but this test really shows what I've been saying for a long time. There is a lot of overlap and if you're using some basic sounds like this there is no reason not to reach for a plug-in.

So yeah, if you're going into a studio to record an album that's sure to sell, use hardware analogs and the best converters currently known to humans. If you have other things going on in your life but still love to make music there's no shame in working totally ITB.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
So the order cycling through is:

Diva -> OB8
Damn too late for this contest to vote ....

Was a very confusing for my ears contest. I would prefer inititially the sound of the first 4 bars but I felt the 2nd 4 bars were analog but was so close that it might be considered 50/50.

The bass in both were pretty damn 100% but the pads on the second were (am not going to use the "warmer" cliche)...not as bright.

It is so hard when matching like for like thoug as you can get real close.

Would love some meat and bones analog like in this youtube vid to be done by virtual. The Arturia SEM is basically the same synth (from the top of my head) so getting it to sound like this youtube clip would be impressive.

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Old 22nd July 2014
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post


I LOVE IT. If you thought it was a trick why did you vote? Are you that easily tricked?
pretty sure that was sarcasm you quoted
Old 22nd July 2014
  #304
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billcarroll's Avatar
 

So to sum this up, DIVA sounds more analog than analog. Sounds about right.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #305
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That was a really good test and helps you to train your ear to look for the significant differences. I still couldn't justify buying a real OB8 based on this test. After all most of the records I listen to are made with really cheap crap and it sounds fine to me

But as Don Solaris suggested I would like to hear a KLF bass test similar to this one as I'm under impression it was an OB8?? -> The KLF - What Time Is Love? - YouTube
Old 22nd July 2014
  #306
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Eigenwert's Avatar
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Originally Posted by laikenf View Post
Was thinking the same hehehe, this thread was clouded with uncertainty, even some of the ones who got it right where still not 100% sure; very different tone from now...
Others were perfectly certain, telling those who got it wrong stating they would eat their pants if they were wrong to have a good meal. So don't be unfair, just because some said they were not confident with their choice.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #307
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How about a challenge. Someone with an OB8 make a bunch of patches and the OP has to recreate all of them with DIVA.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #308
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by billcarroll View Post
So to sum this up, DIVA sounds more analog than analog. Sounds about right.
as long as there is no modulation involved which makes it necessary to use tricks to avoid aliasing

don't get me wrong, I even love my Kurzweil synth for VA and it's surely not as good as DIVA (technically speaking) and produces a lot of aliasing in the high octaves (where I would clearly prefer less aliasing, just like it's done in DIVA)

but e.g. that PWM in the example surely does not sound "analogue"
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #309
Jose Ramón Alvarado Villa
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
But as Don Solaris suggested I would like to hear a KLF bass test similar to this one as I'm under impression it was an OB8?? -> The KLF - What Time Is Love? - YouTube
Well that bass sounds OB-like. But i wonder, perhaps this the track you're looking for:
KLF What time is love original mix 1988 - YouTube

Bcs i know the mix you posted was done later and involved additional producers and programmers (Arun Chakraverty among others), there's even some TB-303 going on in the track and other instruments. There are some Oberheim sounds in it, no doubt. But a lot of layers of other stuff too, too difficult to place bets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
How about a challenge. Someone with an OB8 make a bunch of patches and the OP has to recreate all of them with DIVA.
OP has OB.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
That was a really good test and helps you to train your ear to look for the significant differences.
Absolutely. The ear can be trained. While it's true, some naturally have more acute hearing than others, ones abilities in aural analysis are not fixed in stone. Even if you succumb to bias when listening out for things you already know are there, the training itself is still useful and can be applied under fresh circumstances later. For anyone who's forgotten just how much the ear can be trained, go back and listen to one of your early mixes!
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Absolutely. The ear can be trained. While it's true, some naturally have more acute hearing than others, ones abilities in aural analysis are not fixed in stone. Even if you succumb to bias when listening out for things you already know are there, the training itself is still useful and can be applied under fresh circumstances later. For anyone who's forgotten just how much the ear can be trained, go back and listen to one of your early mixes!
a good listening environment helps too, which arguably, many of us did not have during our early mixes

edit: I still don't really have one murrrr
Old 22nd July 2014
  #312
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post


I LOVE IT. If you thought it was a trick why did you vote? Are you that easily tricked?
I DO hope you are kidding.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #313
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3rdpath's Avatar
it's interesting that i assumed the crisper wider more defined sound was from the OB8. i was wrang, wring, wrung...um, not quite right.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #314
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adhmzaiusz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
How about a challenge. Someone with an OB8 make a bunch of patches and the OP has to recreate all of them with DIVA.
That is a fantastic idea. I have quite a few OB8 sounds I made that I don't think could be emulated in DIVA, but I'd love to see if someone could recreate them. This would be the ultimate sound designer's competition
Could make something with a midi file and send it over.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #315
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Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Bcs i know the mix you posted was done later and involved additional producers and programmers (Arun Chakraverty among others), there's even some TB-303 going on in the track and other instruments. There are some Oberheim sounds in it, no doubt. But a lot of layers of other stuff too, too difficult to place bets.
Probably true but I'd still like to know if it is an OB that does the bass at 2:44 (not the tb-303 part obviously). Anyway _any_ bass test would be interesting.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #316
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mike vee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
I got it wrong, so I guess that means RME converters really do suck. Also, don't ask people to count bars. Everyone knows you can't hear the difference between software and hardware when you have to count bars.

****ing trick question asshole thread.
are you for real dude? hahaha
Old 22nd July 2014
  #317
Well I was without a clue really, I did get more eargasm from the part 2s. So I guess that tipped the scale for me. Interesting that this came over despite my ****ty listening conditions -£4 earbuds.

To the guy asking for a jp8 vs diva. There is one on the diva thread, and it was very easy to spot the jp8. But it was an early version of diva
Old 22nd July 2014
  #318
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Yoozer's Avatar
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Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
I love the sudden change in tone and overall certainty of the comments AFTER the reveal.
And this is why it's important to have people post before the reveal - there's no way to back out of getting it wrong.

But you can't ever do it right with testing.

Raw waveforms? "Of course they sound the same, that's not a musical application! Nobody uses raw waveforms!"
Simple sounds? "Of course they sound the same, the real difference is in the edge cases of audio rate modulation! Try engaging both filter FM and the ring modulation at the same time!"
Complex sounds? "You don't use these kinds of sounds in everyday applications, it's not representative. You should do a simple filter sweep."
Complete track? "Of course it sounds the same, the nuances disappear in the mix!"

The ideal test is where you put Steinberg Model E or some other 15-year old plugin against an early serial Mini, because at least then it's bloody obvious, and everyone can feel happy for immediately getting everything right and smugly dismiss plugins as a useless, plastic-sounding fad.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
How about a challenge. Someone with an OB8 make a bunch of patches and the OP has to recreate all of them with DIVA.
Diva is not being marketed as a "virtual OB8" or a virtual anything for that matter.

Diva is a software instrument with "the spirit of analogue" an its "oscillators, filters and envelopes closely model components found in some of the great monophonic and polyphonic synthesizers of yesteryear."

So it is a software instrument that you can use to make music that sounds like it has analog synthesizers in it. As a result, yes, you could use it to effectively copy some sounds made by vintage analog instruments.

I think we have a while to go before someone creates a plugin that can effectively recreate any sound that can be made by any analog synth.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #320
Without reading the thread, I prefer the first one.

Time to read and find out what it is.

Edit: Cool. I prefer Diva for that particular sound. Honestly it was hard to tell, but the second is a bit more mellow, which CAN be a hint in some cases. I did the same thing with Andromeda vs Strobe, and I definitely prefer the sound of Strobe for the sound I was making at the time. The Andy turned out a bit more mellow on poly sounds. For strings and pads that's definitely a good thing.

But honestly, I had no idea what was what. That also proves that I don't really care what's analogue and what's not.

Last edited by trapezius; 22nd July 2014 at 08:36 PM.. Reason: rtfm
Old 22nd July 2014
  #321
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Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
..To the guy asking for a jp8 vs diva. There is one on the diva thread, and it was very easy to spot the jp8. But it was an early version of diva
I did a Jupiter 8 vs 8v years ago featuring lots of modulation, cross mod and lfo action, perhaps I should dig up that one. Didn't get much response then.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #322
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Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
To the guy asking for a jp8 vs diva. There is one on the diva thread, and it was very easy to spot the jp8. But it was an early version of diva
Diva is not a "virtual Jupiter-8", so if someone wants one of those, they should go elsewhere.

I'd guess that it can very closely emulate many of the sounds you can make with a Jupiter-8. You could probably create patches that are virtually indistinguishable.

I can tell you this, though.... Diva can make about 1,245,739 sounds that you could never, ever make with a Jupiter-8, no matter how hard you tried.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #323
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Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
I think we have a while to go before someone creates a plugin that can effectively recreate any sound that can be made by any analog synth.
Yeah but this is what this guy made this thread about. He didn't just say check out my cool song. He threw up the A and B and said judge because it's Diva (software) and an OB8 (hardware).

I like all kinds of synths, digital, hardware but I find these threads dumb. Forgive me for saying.

Like I said, do a complex patch on the OB8 with filter sweeps and such and the difference will become apparent. Not saying hardware is better just saying comparing the two and thumbing a nose at hardware or guys who like hardware is pointless when "some" patches can sound similar between a certain range between softies and hardware. But beyond that similar range between the two, the op has omitted that make a point.

I still think the OP is ...... trolling.
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #324
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Eigenwert's Avatar
I think the question "Do you know, which one you like better?" should be separated from the question "Do you know, which one is which?"

If those who simply didn't feel confident about their decision, those who just voted DIVA first because they liked the sound and not because they are confident with the differences and those who simply had no clue were not voting, one might even see in the result that the remaining voters had a significant hit rate (mostly picking the correct synth). My guess is that Urs and others (who are confident with the topic) could replicate their correct vote anytime (with other examples, as long as they give enough insight - a pure wave could be played back by any sampler and doesn't count).
Old 22nd July 2014
  #325
please continue to request sounds for another test - which you think will stress Diva vs an analogue synth...
Old 22nd July 2014
  #326
Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
Yeah but this is what this guy made this thread about. He didn't just say check out my cool song. He threw up the A and B and said judge because it's Diva (software) and an OB8 (hardware).

I like all kinds of synths, digital, hardware but I find these threads dumb. Forgive me for saying.

Like I said, do a complex patch on the OB8 with filter sweeps and such and the difference will become apparent. Not saying hardware is better just saying comparing the two and thumbing a nose at hardware or guys who like hardware is pointless when "some" patches can sound similar between a certain range between softies and hardware. But beyond that similar range between the two, the op has omitted that make a point.

I still think the OP is ...... trolling.
Sorry to say that I don't think you can make a complex patch on the ob8 full stop. So it will always be a soft target for emulation.

Sure it can do some smart and unique things but forget fm... Unless you go through the back door via the filter CV you can't do it.
Old 22nd July 2014
  #327
Quote:
Originally Posted by keybdwizrd View Post
Diva is not a "virtual Jupiter-8", so if someone wants one of those, they should go elsewhere.

I'd guess that it can very closely emulate many of the sounds you can make with a Jupiter-8. You could probably create patches that are virtually indistinguishable.

.
I agree and I'm sure I could probably come up with a patch or two on the JP 8 that you would not be able to replicate on Diva
Old 22nd July 2014
  #328
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Eigenwert's Avatar
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Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
please continue to request sounds for another test - which you think will stress Diva vs an analogue synth...
Anything involving intense PWM, FM or both

Anything with percussive cutoff envelope modulation at full resonance ("laser percussion")

Anything involving resonant filter FM

One sound with strong PWM, a good amount of Oscillator FM, resonance around 50% (or a bit less) and a good amount of filter FM would be really interesting
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Old 22nd July 2014
  #329
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Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Absolutely. The ear can be trained. While it's true, some naturally have more acute hearing than others, ones abilities in aural analysis are not fixed in stone. Even if you succumb to bias when listening out for things you already know are there, the training itself is still useful and can be applied under fresh circumstances later. For anyone who's forgotten just how much the ear can be trained, go back and listen to one of your early mixes!
After all, this test wasn't completely fair. Some of the voters had vast amount of experience working with both synths (OB8+Diva), some may have experience of neither. In that case it's really about calibrating your ears to what to expect. With pitch, distortion or similar comparisons it might be more about ones musical abilities but in this case I don't think it's a fair comparison. Or was it about which one sounds better? I don't think so.

To be honest it was your comment that made me re-evaluate my choice and gradually the difference became apparent to me. However I already made my choice and have no peer pressure to deny I was wrong. But what do you think a typical listener (the end user) thinks about this test?
Old 22nd July 2014
  #330
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Come on guys, this thread still is not as legendary as the Aira thread (or that classic "Tony, I want my money back" thread which was holding many of us back from living our lives as normal LOL)
We need to introduce some extra beef: One corner that fat analogue chick (but aged), in the other corner that digital chick which used to be skinny but has been gaining presence and punch so far.
Nowadays everyone agrees that analogue emulations can sound nice. How boring. GS used to be much more fun when things used to get out of control (just kidding)
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