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The E-mu Command Station XL-7/MP-7/PK-7 and Proteus 2500 tutorials Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 1st October 2014
  #61
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Spectralwaves's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Why not sell a patch bank? I bet a lot of us would find it useful to see a patch on the machine and go from there instead of the lame factory presets.
Great idea.
Old 1st October 2014
  #62
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boreg's Avatar
Problem with patch banks for a Command Station is that they don't work unless you have the same ROMs as the patch developer. So, Balma would have to develop patches using a single ROM (I suppose XtremeLead or MoPhatt as the most common); using waves from two or more different ROMs will shrink the potential customer base exponentially.
Old 1st October 2014
  #63
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Has anyone else managed to get proteum working with their CS?

The connections are good and I can edit master settings, but not the voices.
Old 1st October 2014
  #64
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rockreid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by balma View Post
Wich OS do you have installed.

During grid mode, the knobs can be used for note input and gate time adjustment.
The problem could be a faulty knob, in this case, the #8/H, wich is producing jumping values.

Look on the Yahoo groups for the diagnostic modes. There's a diagnostic for all the encoders.

You can also check if the red light of the knob 8 turns on with no reason. A red light means a modified value, so you can verify if the knob is causing the problem.

I had experienced similar issues, and they dissapear after a detailed cleaning of the encoders.
you are indeed brilliant, sir. I checked #8 encoder and it does appear to be faulty. I desoldered it from the board after some electronics cleaner failed to solve the problem. However I can't find a part number for this encoder.. does anyone know the replacement part number for these?
Old 1st October 2014
  #65
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rockreid's Avatar
 

B103 in white paint stamped on top of the encoder... a small 7A stamped in the black plastic on the back. Google search brings up mostly a 10k pot.. this seems like it may be it. I really can't figure if this is a 5k or 10k pot or something else as my example is a wreck now. My caliper says it's a 20mm/6mm shaft, 12mm wide, 18mm tall pot.
Old 1st October 2014
  #66
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boreg View Post
Problem with patch banks for a Command Station is that they don't work unless you have the same ROMs as the patch developer. So, Balma would have to develop patches using a single ROM (I suppose XtremeLead or MoPhatt as the most common); using waves from two or more different ROMs will shrink the potential customer base exponentially.
That would be OK with me if they at least worked on some level and I could replace them with my own ROM sounds, or it might force me to go get the ROM used.
Old 1st October 2014
  #67
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zerocrossing's Avatar
I have a question... probably a stupid one. But I picked up the Mo'Phat in hopes of having this legendary "z-plane filter technology" and I can't for the life of me figure out how to use them correctly. I read the manual about them but it didn't seem to help much. It seems like I'm able to choose only one filter at a time and sweep it though frequency or change it's Q. I'm working in the Prodatum editor, but I also picked up Emulator X3 and it's not clear there either. I thought the idea was to be able to choose multiple filters and morph between them like I can do in Filterscape.
Old 1st October 2014
  #68
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no you can't choose between one and another- the filters are already pre-programmed to morph within each filter preset.

Also, the REAL Z-plane filters are only in the older Morpheus and UltraProteus modules where 3 parameters can be morphed- One realtime Filter Morph, and two Note-on parameters (Filter Tracking and Filter Transform 2) making these true 3-D filters. There are hundreds of these different filters in these modules and they are often not programmed as simple LP, HP, BP, or Notch, but truly weird and bizarre formant, flange, and chorus filters.

All other E-mu products including Ultra samplers, Proteus2000/2500 and X2/3 only offer the less tweaky 2-D Z-plane filters. Sort of weird that E-mu dumbed down their filters over time. I myself picked up both a Morpheus and UltraProteus to attain all of E-mu's Z plane filters, and trying to wade through all their possibilities is mind-boggling.

The Filterscape I believe only offers morphing between traditional filters and can't offer what Z-plane filters can do. Creative (who owns E-mu now) has the patents for Z-plane filters locked down. Shame they don't anything with them these days.
Old 1st October 2014
  #69
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockreid View Post
no you can't choose between one and another- the filters are already pre-programmed to morph within each filter preset.

Also, the REAL Z-plane filters are only in the older Morpheus and UltraProteus modules where 3 parameters can be morphed- One realtime Filter Morph, and two Note-on parameters (Filter Tracking and Filter Transform 2) making these true 3-D filters. There are hundreds of these different filters in these modules and they are often not programmed as simple LP, HP, BP, or Notch, but truly weird and bizarre formant, flange, and chorus filters.

All other E-mu products including Ultra samplers, Proteus2000/2500 and X2/3 only offer the less tweaky 2-D Z-plane filters. Sort of weird that E-mu dumbed down their filters over time. I myself picked up both a Morpheus and UltraProteus to attain all of E-mu's Z plane filters, and trying to wade through all their possibilities is mind-boggling.

The Filterscape I believe only offers morphing between traditional filters and can't offer what Z-plane filters can do. Creative (who owns E-mu now) has the patents for Z-plane filters locked down. Shame they don't anything with them these days.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Sad though. I don't know if this is true or not, but Urs Heckman once remarked that he looked at their patent (probably while developing Filterscape) and it only had to do with how to implement the z-plane filters in hardware. I fully admit I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do think that calling Filterscape a synth that can offer "morphing between traditional filters" isn't a fair assessment of Filterscape's capabilities. You have four bands and 8 "snapshots" in which you can position any of the four bands anywhere in the amplitude and frequency matrix and morph between the snapshots.

Frankly, I don't know why Urs sort of abandoned development of Filterscape, it's a hell of a program for effects processing or as an instrument in the VA version. If he upped the ante in terms of oscs by having wavetables or some other osc type, we would probably talk about it (or at least talk about it on KVR) a lot more often.
Old 1st October 2014
  #70
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balma's Avatar
Absolutely agree. The Z-plane filters are maybe the best digital filters ever released.

There´s some confusion regarding what kind of Z-plane filters were included on E-mu's latest machines before becoming Creative Technologies.

The original Z-plane filters can morph in a lapse of time, and the Q parameter is realtime.

The ones found on the command stations, Proteus 2500 and keyboards like the Xtreme Leads, MoPhat, etc, are less complex.

And the Q parameter is not realtime. If you modulate Q, must retrigger the sound in order to produce the change.

I think these filters were too complex and scientific for most of the users, plus they came on modules with rigid/limitated user interfaces in order to exploit them properly since there's not a point of comparison between a modern classic filter section with the Zplane filters. Like comparing a scooter with the Apollo rocket as transportation methods...

However, the 50 filters found on the Command Stations still rocket science.
A few of them can morph in a lapse of time (but you cannot effectively intervent in such morphing) like the filters:

Swept1oct
Swept2->1oct
Swept3->1oct
PhazeShift1
PhazeShift2
FlangerLite

There are also 12 order filters.
Is easier to understand how complex filters like the 6 and 12 order ones act over a sound, if you refer how classic filters works.

A simple LPF filter, substracts high frequencies. When you filter a waveform with low values, you are just substracting the high frequencies of that sound and letting the lower ones pass thru.
HPF filters do the inverse effect.

But the 12 Order filters found on E-mu romplers, do not extract so specific ranges of frequencies, but they slice the whole frequency spectrum in 12 different segments, and bring to the light only some of them. Like splitting a single sound into 6 different sounds. This is a lot more complex "substractive synthesis" actually, and the reason why they eat polyphony.

Some of these filters, the ZoomPeaks or LuciferQ, extract the frequencies with more resonance presence, and boost it. Others, like the BassBox-303, do the same, but focus on low frequencies, extract some segments of them, and boost them.

So, despite they are not like the filters found on previous models like the Ultra-morpheus, these 50 filters should not be understimated

It can take years to master them. I think one of their best and most prolific implementations to explore them, is to test several and balanced combinations of them into a single patch.
For example, use 4 different waveforms and assigning 4 different filters on each layer: one bassy filter, a high peak resonance filter, a vocalic filter, and a HPF filter. Different combinations can result in unprecedent control over sound, while reprogramming the knobs to control each one of these filters by separated.

Combine all these habilities and possibilities of auditive expressionism with an enormous modulation matrix, a reprogrammable control surface and a powerful sequencer, and then you'll slowly realize why the command station are such powerful and hard to understand instruments

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockreid View Post
you are indeed brilliant, sir. I checked #8 encoder and it does appear to be faulty. I desoldered it from the board after some electronics cleaner failed to solve the problem.
Good you solved it!. I've seen these encoders from time to time on Ebay. They aren't rare, soon you will find one.
Old 1st October 2014
  #71
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balma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Why not sell a patch bank? I bet a lot of us would find it useful to see a patch on the machine and go from there instead of the lame factory presets.
Actually, the original idea of this thread was to provide with a group of complex TEMPLATE USER PRESETS that you could use to make more sounds and fill your user patch databases.

Presets of the ROMS, barely scratch the surface of the engine. They use 1 or 2 layers, and a common generic knob programming, plus they were made for the common standard musician. They have been completely excluded from my sound palette. Terrible implementations for a brilliant engine.

I've spent around 6-8 years designing the user banks I have now in my command stations. But some of them were programmed using uncommon ROMS like the Beat Garden and Construction Yard.

However, I can provide new fresh patches for MP-7 and XL-7, wich are the ROMs most owners have.


If I could finally back up my presets to a computer, but haven't been able to do it, not even with Prodatum. That's my flaw. I'm a computer geek, but when talking about making music with computers, or using software for processes like backing up presets with MIDI, I'm a fool and lazy. That would save me a lot of hardwork while trying to put in paper charts each one of my user patches, one by one....
Old 2nd October 2014
  #72
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balma's Avatar
Experimenting with the vox waveforms of the MP-7 ROM

Apart from a considerable number of ultracheesy samples like
yeah!, gimme that! okey! ouch!, there's a cool group of vocal looped samples, from the 0376 (TB Vowel A) to the 0387 (Earth Lisa) voices of the MP7.

Let's filter them with some of the 12 and 6 order filters wich are supposed to be suitable for voice samples.
So, I'll try to create a vocal evolving drone, using these vox category waveforms and the type VOW Filters.


For such purpose, I'll select 4 different waveforms with their own filter. But I will program the sound while writing this post, and record the different stages of the sound and post them on soundcloud.

Btw, is a good practice to have a DEFAULT user patch, without any assignation of the knobs, envelopes set to REPEAT on, and continuous when making sounds from scratch.
Default and template programs -wathever sequences or user presets- can save you a lot of time when programming the command station.


Some of the specs:

-Knobs A, B, C and D will control the filter of each waveform independently.

-Knobs E and F will control attack and decay levels.

-Knobs G and H will crossfade waveforms 1/2 and 3/4

-Knobs I, J, K, and L will control the volume level, Filter envelope presence, noise intervention and LFO over the AUX envelope

-Knobs M, N, O and P, could control AUX envelope presence, interactions between LFO1 and LFO2, Detune and SLoop.


First steps:

Crossfading

The crossfade is useful to interpolate between two or more voices. You can use one knob to make one voice fading in, while another is fading out.
Please make the following programming in order to interpolate between two voices:

Crossfade setting (trigger 2:ranges):

L1 RT: LO FADE HIGH FADE
000 000 127 127

L2 RT: LO FADE HIGH FADE
000 127 127 000


Voices:
L1
0387 vox:Earth Lisa

L2
0379 vox:TB Vowel O

Filters:

L1
FILTER Ord Type
Ooh-ToAah 6 VOW
Filter freq: 64
L2
FILTER Ord Type
MultiQVox 12 VOW
Freq: 128

Set the AuxEnv to modulate the chorus, producing a evolving detuning effect over the voice.

LA PATCHCORDS #19

AuxEnv+- -> ChrsAmt +075 ***(try to use different chorus value for each layer)

Make this effect even more complex, sending a long rate LFO to modulate the presence of the AuxEnv.

LA PATCHCORDS #18
Lfo1+- -> C19Amt +50

For additional complexity, set one of the LFOs to modulate the rate of the LFO that is affecting the AuxEnv presence,

LA PATCHCORDS #17
Lfo2+- -> Lfo1Rate -001

This long chain of effects will make the voice to detune on a complex sequence of variations when holding the note during a long time.

You should get something like this....



heh
Old 2nd October 2014
  #73
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Thanks for this awesome thread!

I've only been using my Command Station as a sequencer up to now, but now that I see what is possible with from the sound engine, definitely going to clear some space on the mixer for it!!

Don't want to sidetrack the tutorials, but was wondering if there's much in common between the EMU Ultra samplers and this engine?
Old 2nd October 2014
  #74
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balma's Avatar
Don't worry, I knew somebody who played his command station using drumsticks.

There are several E-mu Ultra models, being the E4xt the biggest one. They also have a modulation matrix and the E4xt has onboard sequencer, and I think they can also read the ROMs for the proteus and command station, having 3 free slots for such purpose, so they share some similarities.

The 6400 Ultra can burn ROMs for the Proteus family. Having my own samples inside a command station is one of my wet dreams, can't image what could I do with my own samples manipulated for such engine, but blank ROMs were never easy to get, neither cheap.

This track explores a more charming, dreamy aspect of this machine. 100% command station :

...maybe in a couple of months I'll begin to dig the sequencer section on this thread.


I tried several leads for this song, using the Vsynth, the Fizmo, the Prophet 08 and the Command Station. At the end, I opted for using the lead of the command station as the main plot of the song. It was the one with the more "personality" at the moment of the performance.

Two sides of the coin. Emu Command Station vs DSI Tempest.

Old 2nd October 2014
  #75
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by balma View Post
Actually, the original idea of this thread was to provide with a group of complex TEMPLATE USER PRESETS that you could use to make more sounds and fill your user patch databases.

Presets of the ROMS, barely scratch the surface of the engine. They use 1 or 2 layers, and a common generic knob programming, plus they were made for the common standard musician. They have been completely excluded from my sound palette. Terrible implementations for a brilliant engine.

I've spent around 6-8 years designing the user banks I have now in my command stations. But some of them were programmed using uncommon ROMS like the Beat Garden and Construction Yard.

However, I can provide new fresh patches for MP-7 and XL-7, wich are the ROMs most owners have.


If I could finally back up my presets to a computer, but haven't been able to do it, not even with Prodatum. That's my flaw. I'm a computer geek, but when talking about making music with computers, or using software for processes like backing up presets with MIDI, I'm a fool and lazy. That would save me a lot of hardwork while trying to put in paper charts each one of my user patches, one by one....
Gotcha. I was just suggesting a way for you to monetize your hard work.

I just finished the daunting job of putting the first template in. I only have the Mo'Phatt ROM (which I see is now probably not the way I should have gone) but I tried different waves and different filters. Your track link is broken, so I'm not sure how close I came to what you did. One thing I was having trouble with was a "clicking" kind of sound that I had a hard time getting rid of. I tried turning off each patch cable one by one, but none helped. I did finally find a wave and tweaked the attack so it wasn't apparent, but I really wish I had a version of the patch with comments so I (and all n00bs) could have a better idea of what each patch and setting was doing. I know, you're already doing a hell of a job for nothing, so I'll shut up and try and figure it out.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #76
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balma's Avatar
If a sound is clicking at the beginning:

-Set the Attack1 of the Amp Envelope to 1 or 2.
-Check the SOUND START DELAY settings on the Chorus/Delay section. You can specify the start point of the sounds at this section. Some values will make the waveform to start on a peak point, making the sound click.

The Amp Envelope is the only one of the ADSR envelopes that is hardwired. So it's not necessary to create a patchcord of the AMP being sent to the Volume level.
Also, some samples have a click at the beginning. That's not related to the engine but to the guy who made them and didn't care to properly edit the sample and create at least a short fade in.
I was kind of dissapointed to find this issue with some of the samples of the BEAT ROM Garden.
I forgot I traslated that sound from my soundcloud account to the account I opened for this thread:

https://soundcloud.com/la-palida

I think this is the sound:
Old 29th October 2014
  #77
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zerocrossing's Avatar
I've decided that as cool as this is, I just find putting together sounds like this a lot easier in software devices. I've thrown my Mo'Phatt up in the classifieds section if anyone's interested. I think it's just too deep for me and I don't really have the time to dedicate to it. Thanks for all the info though, it's been very informative.
Old 29th October 2014
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I've decided that as cool as this is, I just find putting together sounds like this a lot easier in software devices. I've thrown my Mo'Phatt up in the classifieds section if anyone's interested. I think it's just too deep for me and I don't really have the time to dedicate to it. Thanks for all the info though, it's been very informative.
Bummer. Just bought a Mo Phatt the other day to put the ROM in my XL-1. Also, to have some spare parts if the module has problems in the future. For only ~$30 more I got the whole machine instead of just the ROM. I think it's weird that even the more common ROMs are selling for $90 - $150.
Old 29th October 2014
  #79
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
Bummer. Just bought a Mo Phatt the other day to put the ROM in my XL-1. Also, to have some spare parts if the module has problems in the future. For only ~$30 more I got the whole machine instead of just the ROM. I think it's weird that even the more common ROMs are selling for $90 - $150.
Yeah, maybe I could get a bit more, but that's what I paid so I figure the eBay fees how much I paid to rent it for a bit. I'm not looking to turn any profit, just clear out some space.
Old 29th October 2014
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Yeah, maybe I could get a bit more, but that's what I paid so I figure the eBay fees how much I paid to rent it for a bit. I'm not looking to turn any profit, just clear out some space.
I would have a hard time selling mine now that I've played with the Mo Phatt ROM for a while. The drum kits are fan****ingtastic! If I ever sold it I would have to sample all those kits first. They're phenomenally punchy and high quality in my opinion. They'd work great in any beat oriented genre. Looking forward to using them. I've also got a friend with an electronic drum kit. Can't wait to hear him jam out and see what he thinks.
Old 30th October 2014
  #81
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
I would have a hard time selling mine now that I've played with the Mo Phatt ROM for a while. The drum kits are fan****ingtastic! If I ever sold it I would have to sample all those kits first. They're phenomenally punchy and high quality in my opinion. They'd work great in any beat oriented genre. Looking forward to using them. I've also got a friend with an electronic drum kit. Can't wait to hear him jam out and see what he thinks.
Yeah, there's that. I'm not hurting for good drum sounds, but it does seem to have a lot of great kits built into ROM... overall, as a cheap ROMpler full of dance oriented tones it's not bad at all. I just had a different idea of what I'd use it for in mind. In my head I thought I'd have something akin to a Glitchmachines' Polygon in a box with Z-Plane filters.

And in a sense, it is kind of that. I can see the potential, I just think that I don't have the time and patience at this point in my life to really dig into it. Also, I have Emulator X3, which is enough of that "taste" for me. I can see something else taking the spot of this little purple beast that would make more sense in my studio.
Old 30th October 2014
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Yeah, there's that. I'm not hurting for good drum sounds, but it does seem to have a lot of great kits built into ROM... overall, as a cheap ROMpler full of dance oriented tones it's not bad at all. I just had a different idea of what I'd use it for in mind. In my head I thought I'd have something akin to a Glitchmachines' Polygon in a box with Z-Plane filters.

And in a sense, it is kind of that. I can see the potential, I just think that I don't have the time and patience at this point in my life to really dig into it. Also, I have Emulator X3, which is enough of that "taste" for me. I can see something else taking the spot of this little purple beast that would make more sense in my studio.
It is a tough box to crack and integrate into the workflow. Definitely not for everyone. I already had a pretty good head start since I owned that Command Station in the past. The Prodatum editor really makes a huge difference but it's still a very deep machine. Prodatum could also use a bit of intuitive GUI improvement even though it's awesome and I'm grateful it exists, and it's free! I basically bought the XL-1 a couple months back to have a cheap piece of sound sorcery to jam with at my friend's place. It's great for that.

I'm really amazed at the weak presets from all the modules I've owned. Even just using the randomize feature has yielded some really spectacular results. Then tweaking those sounds to taste and experimenting with the mod matrix... really a top notch device. I still can't believe they closed up shop, and even more amazing: these boxes sold for several hundred at the time and now can be had for way less than the price of a decent plug-in.
Old 30th October 2014
  #83
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
It is a tough box to crack and integrate into the workflow. Definitely not for everyone. I already had a pretty good head start since I owned that Command Station in the past. The Prodatum editor really makes a huge difference but it's still a very deep machine. Prodatum could also use a bit of intuitive GUI improvement even though it's awesome and I'm grateful it exists, and it's free! I basically bought the XL-1 a couple months back to have a cheap piece of sound sorcery to jam with at my friend's place. It's great for that.

I'm really amazed at the weak presets from all the modules I've owned. Even just using the randomize feature has yielded some really spectacular results. Then tweaking those sounds to taste and experimenting with the mod matrix... really a top notch device. I still can't believe they closed up shop, and even more amazing: these boxes sold for several hundred at the time and now can be had for way less than the price of a decent plug-in.
That's a good point. I guess I could do the old DX7 trick and just keep rolling the dice until I come up with a bunch of cool sounds. (there used to be an application on our music store's SE30 that just filled a disc full of random sounds for the DX7) I also think part of the problem is the Mo'Phatt ROM is loaded up with a ton of drum sounds (good ones, but not what I care about) and I probably need to add some other ROMs which have more interesting waveforms for the type of thing I'm looking to do with it.
Old 30th October 2014
  #84
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Oh I have an idea! Hey Balma! If you're ever looking for a place to stay in the San Francisco Bay area, I'll let you use my studio which has a bed in it as long as you create a few patches for me each day.
Old 31st October 2014
  #85
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Hey, I was poking around this morning and found this...

Proteum Patch Editor

Anyone use it? Better than Prodatum?
Old 31st October 2014
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Hey, I was poking around this morning and found this...

Proteum Patch Editor

Anyone use it? Better than Prodatum?
Quote:
Proteum is designed to run on PCs or compatibles running Microsoft Windows NT, W2K or XP.
Old 1st November 2014
  #87
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Spectralwaves's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
Why not run it on a virtual Windows program ?
Old 1st November 2014
  #88
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memorysplice's Avatar
What is everyones thought of using Ctrlr - Control your MIDI life (MIDI editor for all your hardware) for the proteus line?
Old 1st November 2014
  #89
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Spectralwaves's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post

I'm really amazed at the weak presets from all the modules I've owned. Even just using the randomize feature has yielded some really spectacular results.
I wonder why they didn't include this feature on the Command Stations?
Its a shame as I think it would be great & I love 'randomise' on the Prophet VS & Waldorf MWXT, I think a great programming serendipity aid/ beginning point.

Besides using the Prodateum or Proteum editors (which I haven't been able to get going as of yet) is there a workaround, hidden sequence of button presses e.g. that provide a 'randomise' featue on the Command Station? I have the latest OS on my XL7.

This is also a reason why I will probably pick up a proteus 2000/Planet Earth/ or Mophatt ( one of them, though Id like all the ROM cards) etc at some point.
I want randomize on my Emus.

Last edited by Spectralwaves; 1st November 2014 at 04:02 AM.. Reason: ford anglia
Old 2nd November 2014
  #90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectralwaves View Post
Why not run it on a virtual Windows program ?
Because Windows is evil. Still, only slightly more so than Apple. But still... EVIL!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectralwaves View Post
Besides using the Prodateum or Proteum editors (which I haven't been able to get going as of yet) is there a workaround, hidden sequence of button presses e.g. that provide a 'randomise' featue on the Command Station? I have the latest OS on my XL7.
Page 280 of the manual:

http://www.e-univercity.com/SynthGea...7/XL7_Op-F.pdf
Topic:
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