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Akai unveils Rhythm Wolf - analog drum machine and bass synth Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 14th March 2014
  #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
Akai on the other hand has done everything right.
and by everything, you mean they've shown a box and said the word analog.


my sense of 'everything' typically includes experienced sound and functionality.
Old 14th March 2014
  #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
ACB may sound good but besides the point some of us were asking for an analog, not a new form of digital.
And to add to that, one thing that will be common among ACB or any other form of modeling or virtual analog is a trait that's shared with everything digital:

The oscillators, filters, and envelopes in every single unit of model "fill-in the blank" drum machine or synth to roll off the assembly line will sound identical to one another. All serial numbers of that model will sound the same, unlike analog.

Since Roland was mentioned here, lets take the TR-8 vs. TR808 comparison for example. Since the TR808 is an analog drum machine, the tolerance levels of each of the electronic components differ in each of the individual TR808s manufactured. In addition, there could also be differences in calibration of each of the units as well (oscillator tuning, noise generator output level, etc). As a result, each of the TR808s manufactured have a difference in tone. Each serial number sounds slightly different. The tone of some TR808s are somewhat similar while others differ drastically. With that said, I own two TR808s and each of them sound very different and each has its own character.

On the other hand, the TR-8 is a digitally modeled version based on the original TR808 and TR909 machines. As a result, the tone is based on some mathematical formula which is processed in a computer (the TR-8) which has all digital components (CPU). Since the sound generation is basical software, that software can be copied to be used in other machines (other TR-8s manufactured). As a result, the tone of the oscillators and the response of the filters and envelopes of all TR-8s will be identical from one machine to another.

I believe this is one of the reasons analog is so well respected. Each machine has it's own unique sound. It's a pleasure to see Akai, the makers of the MPC, introduce a new analog drum machine. I can't wait to hear what it sounds like.

TR808 Owner #1: :Your 808 bassdrum has a longer decay than mines. Your hihats sound a lot nicer too. Why is that?"

TR808 Owner #2: "I don't know. Maybe I just got lucky. Hehehehehehe!!!!!"

TR808 Owner #1: "Wanna Trade?"

TR808 Owner #2: "NOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Old 14th March 2014
  #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sclr View Post
cdm has a pretty good hands on article for a machine with no sound.
Possibly the most unfortunate thing I've seen on CDM this year: a recitation of specs coming from PR flacks, and a ridiculous "hands on" video that seems like a parody.



I'm actually looking forward to hearing this machine, but this stuff coming out of 'messe is absurd.
Old 14th March 2014
  #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvmoore View Post
And to add to that, one thing that will be common among ACB or any other form of modeling or virtual analog is a trait that's shared with everything digital:

The oscillators, filters, and envelopes in every single unit of model "fill-in the blank" drum machine or synth to roll off the assembly line will sound identical to one another. All serial numbers of that model will sound the same, unlike analog.

Since Roland was mentioned here, lets take the TR-8 vs. TR808 comparison for example. Since the TR808 is an analog drum machine, the tolerance levels of each of the electronic components differ in each of the individual TR808s manufactured. In addition, there could also be difference in calibration of each of the units as well (oscillator tuning, noise generator output level, etc). As a result, each of the TR808s manufactured will have a difference in tone. The tone of some TR808s may be somewhat similar while others may differ drastically. With that said, I own two TR808s and each of them sound very different and each has their own character.

On the other hand, the TR-8 is a digitally modeled version based on the original TR808 and TR909 machines. As a result, the tone is based on some mathematical formula which is processed in a computer (the TR-8) which has all digital components (CPU). Since the sound generation is basical software, that software can be copied to be used in other machines (other TR-8s manufactured). As a result, the tone of the oscillators and the response of the filters and envelopes of all TR-8s will be identical from one machine to another.

I believe this is one of the reasons analog is so well respected. Each machine has it's own unique sound.
Maybe to a certain extent. But if it was so wildly different how come everybody analyzes it to the nth degree?

There's an awful lot of doublethink when it comes to avd
Old 14th March 2014
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post

I'm actually looking forward to hearing this machine, but this stuff coming out of 'messe is absurd.
I think its getting kind of funny. Granted, I am somewhat interested in this gadget, but the lack of sound demos is sort of an unconventional way of introducing a synth.
Old 14th March 2014
  #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draven5 View Post
ACB may sound good but besides the point some of us were asking for an analog, not a new form of digital.
i get it, but others of us understand that the time will come when digital will sound better than analog. some of us are ready to advance and apparently roland is also ready.

this is funny to me because i spent nearly a decade listening to photographers complain about digital photography and how it was theoretically impossible for it to surpass the quality of chemical processing.

well it wasn't long until an overwhelming majority of them began shooting digital and loving it. today they have never-ending canon vs nikon debates... which is hilarious because those were the companies that were allegedly "ruining" photography for them. sony too.

i understand bashing roland for some of their past but i don't understand bashing them for wanting to move forward.
Old 14th March 2014
  #757
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It is a bit funny. The engineers aim at something similar to 808, cr-78 seems like a high bar. We'll hear in a while i guess...

I dunno, if its even half the oomph or charcter of either it'll be worth it.
Old 14th March 2014
  #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sclr View Post
I dunno, if its even half the oomph or charcter of either it'll be worth it.
I like computers. I'm not afraid of them, they usually don't get in the way. They even help me participate on electronic forums. So I'm interested in seeing how the sound and workflow of this unit compares to something like Arturia's SparkLE (whose v.2 is coming Real Soon Now). $200 for even a cheap drum machine could be worth it (a fully modded Monotribe with drum outs runs around $300), but I want to see how it really competes with a good software/hardware option around the same price-point.
Old 14th March 2014
  #759
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Astronaut FX's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kvmoore View Post
And to add to that, one thing that will be common among ACB or any other form of modeling or virtual analog is a trait that's shared with everything digital:

The oscillators, filters, and envelopes in every single unit of model "fill-in the blank" drum machine or synth to roll off the assembly line will sound identical to one another. All serial numbers of that model will sound the same, unlike analog.

Since Roland was mentioned here, lets take the TR-8 vs. TR808 comparison for example. Since the TR808 is an analog drum machine, the tolerance levels of each of the electronic components differ in each of the individual TR808s manufactured. In addition, there could also be differences in calibration of each of the units as well (oscillator tuning, noise generator output level, etc). As a result, each of the TR808s manufactured have a difference in tone. Each serial number sounds slightly different. The tone of some TR808s are somewhat similar while others differ drastically. With that said, I own two TR808s and each of them sound very different and each has its own character.

(edited for brevity…)

I believe this is one of the reasons analog is so well respected. Each machine has it's own unique sound. It's a pleasure to see Akai, the makers of the MPC, introduce a new analog drum machine. I can't wait to hear what it sounds like.

TR808 Owner #1: :Your 808 bassdrum has a longer decay than mines. Your hihats sound a lot nicer too. Why is that?"

TR808 Owner #2: "I don't know. Maybe I just got lucky. Hehehehehehe!!!!!"

TR808 Owner #1: "Wanna Trade?"

TR808 Owner #2: "NOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I know what you're trying to say here, and I don't disagree. But I can't help but think that if we were talking about any other kind of product here, with that kind of variation from one "identical" item to the next, we'd be lamenting the ****ty quality control that would allow them to be so different from one unit to the next. But instead, we applaud it and call it character.
Old 14th March 2014
  #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazoo View Post
i get it, but others of us understand that the time will come when digital will sound better than analog. some of us are ready to advance and apparently roland is also ready.

this is funny to me because i spent nearly a decade listening to photographers complain about digital photography and how it was theoretically impossible for it to surpass the quality of chemical processing.

well it wasn't long until an overwhelming majority of them began shooting digital and loving it. today they have never-ending canon vs nikon debates... which is hilarious because those were the companies that were allegedly "ruining" photography for them. sony too.

i understand bashing roland for some of their past but i don't understand bashing them for wanting to move forward.
I think the idea 'digital is the way forward' is a gross oversimplification. For one thing, this is music. In music, the way forward is often two steps back and then a turn in a random direction. If something works, it gets handed down maybe for hundreds of years. It gets readapted and re-contextualized.

I know some folks that are computer engineers and scientists, and they've told me we are nearing the limit of the increase of power of traditional computers, as there is always a tradeoff between how many transistors you can fit in a given area and the quality and reliability of those transistors. If you like analog sound, why model it? Why not stick with analog circuit designs and integrate digital circuits where they can make an improvement, rather than wasting computing power, which is not actually infinite, trying to build a virtual version of something that already exists in the real world.

Digital synths are cool, but I think the idea that at some point digital will completely replace analog sound production is most likely a farce.
Old 14th March 2014
  #761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazoo View Post
i get it, but others of us understand that the time will come when digital will sound better than analog. some of us are ready to advance and apparently roland is also ready.
Who cares about advancing we're not debating advancement by technology, some of us just want a good old fashioned sounding analog redone in a new way.


I don't dislike digital, my comment was about the way Roland made a big deal out of digital using their analog past to sell it and hyping it way up, including only a select few to view it ahead of time. They have their heads so far up in the clouds touting digital is the future it's ridiculous.

In fact I'm so sure Roland lacks the confidence that the mass public will buy into their digital is the future thinking that they keep having to refer to older products of the past that sounded great to sell everything they have new.

Cool that they can make a new form of digital but all that hype was made when Roland is clearly aware that the electronic music community is on a craze for analog and was hoping for Roland to join in.

My point was the way they did this was BS.

They should have just came out with it at NAMM and said we have a new form of digital. All that stuff they did was just smoke and mirrors.
Old 14th March 2014
  #762
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With all this"it sucks because its mono" talk you would think that creative delays to create stereo style FX were impossible. The only real question that is relevant to me is what does the bass synth sound like. I am sure the drums will sound great.
Old 14th March 2014
  #763
just buy 5 of them....then you'll have individual outs..one drum machine per drum?!

see...easy!
Old 14th March 2014
  #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sclr View Post
What will it sound like? Both the drum set and sounds are said to be something new. The drum engine – with kick, snare, hats, and “percussion” – is a new analog engine that draws inspiration from the 808 and CR-78, we hear from the engineers.
Sounds promising...perhaps the metallic percussion section is influenced by CR-78's "metal beat".
Old 14th March 2014
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazoo View Post
i get it, but others of us understand that the time will come when digital will sound better than analog. some of us are ready to advance and apparently roland is also ready.

this is funny to me because i spent nearly a decade listening to photographers complain about digital photography and how it was theoretically impossible for it to surpass the quality of chemical processing.

well it wasn't long until an overwhelming majority of them began shooting digital and loving it. today they have never-ending canon vs nikon debates... which is hilarious because those were the companies that were allegedly "ruining" photography for them. sony too.

i understand bashing roland for some of their past but i don't understand bashing them for wanting to move forward.

You can't really use this as an analogy because in the camera digital v. film debate, you're talking about the medium, not the camera (really, I mean, yes, censore plates, etc. are part of the camera, but it's really addressing the medium).

The digital v. film debate is more like the DAW v. tape debate.

(And btw, I'm not picking on you or being contrarian)
Old 14th March 2014
  #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysanfel View Post
With all this"it sucks because its mono" talk you would think that creative delays to create stereo style FX were impossible. The only real question that is relevant to me is what does the bass synth sound like. I am sure the drums will sound great.


Agreed. Pretty silly. I wonder how many people are tracking a stereo CR-78
Old 14th March 2014
  #767
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LOL. We're already into full on analog vs digital again. That didn't take long.
Old 14th March 2014
  #768
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dude from sweetwater told me "it's going to be a late summer/fall release" on this puppy...er, wolf.
Old 14th March 2014
  #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slujj vohaul View Post
LOL. We're already into full on analog vs digital again. That didn't take long.
Ha sorry!

I'm done.

Carry on.
Old 14th March 2014
  #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slugworth View Post
so far we've seen a video of a non-functional box and yet, somehow, you can tell me how the circuitry works and what is possible and what isn't.

you're just making stuff up. next you'll say you can subjectively hear it.


what is the shift button purpose then....
Dear sir,
PES described how analog circuitry works. Indeed multifunctional pots are complicated to implement in 100% analog signal path.

Shift button is to control the multifunctional buttons. (black label text on white background tells the function hidden behind shift)
Old 14th March 2014
  #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
You can't really use this as an analogy because in the camera digital v. film debate, you're talking about the medium, not the camera (really, I mean, yes, censore plates, etc. are part of the camera, but it's really addressing the medium).

The digital v. film debate is more like the DAW v. tape debate.

(And btw, I'm not picking on you or being contrarian)
sorry i wasn't trying to compare the two in that manner.

the point i was trying to make is that sometimes it's possible that even the "pros" get it wrong when it comes to predicting the future of their profession.

ACB may not be the solution to VA's shortcomings but it appears to be an evolutionary step in the right direction. and considering that technology advancements happen exponentially we could see some major advancements sooner than anyone expects.
Old 14th March 2014
  #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spazoo View Post
ACB may not be the solution to VA's shortcomings but it appears to be an evolutionary step in the right direction. and considering that technology advancements happen exponentially we could see some major advancements sooner than anyone expects.
Not flaming here or anything, just trying to understand, but advancements in what regard?
Simulating analog? Oldskool analog does that already with 100% fidelity!
Old 14th March 2014
  #773
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But analog simulating other analogs doesn't unless it's part for part and even then everyone agrees no two units sound exactly 100% alike.

Do you seriously not think "let's just make it analog" crossed Roland's mind at any point?
Old 14th March 2014
  #774
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True, analog synthesizer ain't good for synthesizing other synthesizers. (The same goes for most digitals as well!)

Me thinks that's the beaty in them; they have the sound of their own.
Old 14th March 2014
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seccione View Post
Not flaming here or anything, just trying to understand, but advancements in what regard?
Simulating analog? Oldskool analog does that already with 100% fidelity!
i hate to reply superficially but i don't have a choice since i don't know enough technical details to explain whey modelled output waveforms are inferior to their analog counterparts. but i can hear the difference! for example, when i adjust a filter on a VA synth i can sometimes hear stepping.

and then there are the missing, often desired analog characteristics caused by things like unpredictable voltage changes, temperature changes, unrelated parameters coincidentally affecting each other, oscillator stability, etc. these things are difficult to model, but not impossible. they are imperfections so perfection is not the goal. and i think it's safe to expect that algorithms to mimic these behaviors will continue to be improved as processing power increases.

to answer your question, i suppose "advancements" are the intermediate steps on the way to making VA indistinguishable from analog, without losing the benefits of VA. it's a lame answer, i know. but i don't know how else to answer. when i get my hands on some aira gear i hope that i will just feel it, and hear it. i'm not expecting it to be a whole lot closer to analog, just closer.

anyways... i'm not trying to make this about roland. i'm also looking forward to the wolf.
Old 14th March 2014
  #776
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^^^ Fair enough!
Old 14th March 2014
  #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysanfel View Post
With all this"it sucks because its mono" talk you would think that creative delays to create stereo style FX were impossible. The only real question that is relevant to me is what does the bass synth sound like. I am sure the drums will sound great.
Great example. You try to be creative and apply some stereo FX on the mono output. Guess what happens ... your bass drum will suck and, finally, your mix will suck. Just so much misunderstanding, surprising. Keeping the bass mono and the rest mono or stereo. Not only vinyl requires this ... EDM had started lofi many times those days, but listen to modern productions, they are all mixed "right", that means like any other pop song, with all requirements and implications. it will sound big, because of stereo. Listen to the new Skrillex album or any other source. No hint to any vintage lofi mono productions.
Old 14th March 2014
  #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slugworth View Post
and by everything, you mean they've shown a box and said the word analog.


my sense of 'everything' typically includes experienced sound and functionality.
I think it's interesting how you keep ignoring everything else I write, take things out of context and respond later to make things look in your favor.


Quite a character you are.


You left out the part where I said "Akai on the other hand has done everything right. It may only be a prototype but they've taken it out and shown what they are working on and showed you everything they have even if it doesn't actually play any audio yet. They are showing that they have plans to make an analog because they know that's what a lot of people would like to see from more manufacturers. Not tricks no bs just showing what they currently have. And to me that means more than Roland's games. "
Old 14th March 2014
  #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slugworth View Post
and by everything, you mean they've shown a box and said the word analog.


my sense of 'everything' typically includes experienced sound and functionality.
Why are you even in this thread if you hate the thing and keep complaining they didn't play a sound from it?
Old 14th March 2014
  #780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
Listen to the new Skrillex album



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