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Dark Techno: That Low Rumbly Noise Bass? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 26th November 2013
  #1
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Dark Techno: That Low Rumbly Noise Bass?

In dark techno, I will frequently hear (usually "side-chained" to pump on eighth notes in between kick) like a really noise low end rumble. Almost like putting a kick drum through reverb, where the bass/sub region would normally make the mix all muddy.. but then using that for the bass...

If anyone knows what I'm talkin about, aside from the strategy I've mentioned, what kind of things do others do for that. Since the kick plays with it normally, it's hard to tell what it exactly is.
Old 26th November 2013
  #2
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Got an example? Could be a release envelope on the bass or even the tail of the Kick with a sidechained expander
Old 26th November 2013
  #3
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Der Laborant's Avatar
 

the *noise* confuses me, I guess you just mean the low end rumble?

Well it's what you said, the reverb

Shameless
Old 26th November 2013
  #4
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Tallowah's Avatar
 

.


Sidechained kick reverb




.
Old 27th November 2013
  #5
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Thats it !!!!! well... but, what I'm thinkin of is a lot lower in pitch... so the pumping verb is literally 80- roughly I dont know... 200 hz or so. As i said tho, I could sample than tune it down or whatever... I guess I was on the right track... sweet!
Old 27th November 2013
  #6
Gear Guru
Sometimes I can't help but giggle at some of those videos. I remember seeing one that was some hour long seminar to make "hardstyle/gabber" kicks.. and it went thru all this processing/plug-ins/etc.. and in the end it sounded like garbage. Just get a 909 and learn to layer the instruments correctly.

Where as this.. reverb kick might be the answer (post an example?). But sometimes you just need the right samples under drums.. some industrial noise thru a low-pass filter can do the trick. It will make the claps sound verby and the kick drum thunder.. with zero effects.

EDIT: and you don't need to sidechain and compress everything!!!
Old 27th November 2013
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
Thats it !!!!! well... but, what I'm thinkin of is a lot lower in pitch... so the pumping verb is literally 80- roughly I dont know... 200 hz or so. As i said tho, I could sample than tune it down or whatever... I guess I was on the right track... sweet!
you could lowpass/eq the reverb right to your taste too
Old 27th November 2013
  #8
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Sory for my english, it is not my native language. If you can post an example it would be great. But in techno there are known ways for getting that bass.

1- Get a groovy loop with sub freq content and sidechain it to the kick, play with the pitch till you get it hiting where you want and then lowpass it to taste. Then compress

2- Get toms, Kicks, or perc samples with sub freq content, and again, sidechain, pitch and lowpass. Here you might need to play with the adsr of the samples. And then compress.

Something important, the kick that you choose to play with the bass. Must be a hard kick. And you want to be hitting the 60-80 hz zone of the freq spectrum to get a good rumble in the bass.
Old 27th November 2013
  #9
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as i figured, there is more than one way to skin a human. i appreciate replies... and i have said this in other threads: although i know that in the end its up to me to experiment and come up with my own ways to do things, i was just curious what other ways people have approached this technique; furthermore, i didnt have to post an example, i think everyone was successful in their assumptions of what i was talkin about, it literally sounds exactly as i explained in my original post... thanks again!
Old 4th December 2013
  #10
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Just for ****s and giggles, I tried to reproduce the youtube video's first reverb pumping situation in Ableton (with abletons compressor.. not the glue the other one) and with that guys comp settings (attk:10 ms / rel:440ms) I couldnt do it at all. If anyone has ableton out there... try to reproduce this guys settings/results on youtube above... Use a kick on the quarters, open another channel with a reverb on it, set its input to receive the kick, and use abletons compressor (being sidechained with the kick track) to pump the reverb. Using the guys comp settings above (given that his DAW seems to be like 127 bpm) I cant get anything close to it.
It seems once i have the verb loaded, and then drop the comp after it and set the s/c up, the default settings (upon lowering the threshold) have better results than 10ms attk and 440ms rel. I know there is probably big difference between logics comp (which has all the different models: opto, vca , varimu, etc) i still would think **** would be closer than that.
its crazy, this has to be the most absolute fundamental elec. music technique.. and i'm havin some issues with it.

Last edited by qb748t394; 4th December 2013 at 07:11 PM.. Reason: Remove redundant statement
Old 4th December 2013
  #11
Is your kick audio or are you triggering it with MIDI?

Sidechain inputs will respond to audio only, unless otherwise specified.

Like if you are using a sample in some sort of sampler and have not bounced to audio yet, that will not work.

Typically I choose a different kick to input the sidechain than the one in my track. The kick in my track is usually interesting and sometimes does not have a smooth decay. So I'll take a small and short 808 sample, (Wave Alchemy has some nice free ones) and use that because it has a very smooth waveform which will trigger the compressor nicely.

Can you show us some screen shots of your kick track, compressor, and settings so maybe we can help you out.
Old 4th December 2013
  #12
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i'm using way shorter release times... moral of this story: Trust My Ears, and Many Comps Work Differently
Old 4th December 2013
  #13
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Edge!! what up ninja!
just saw your post, since my page hadnt refreshed till I posted last. I'm gonna mess with everything more, before I jump to more conclusions.

P.S. Been watchin the DMP Drums video. Wasnt sure about all of those hihats, shakers, echoboys, shakers, tambs, echoboys that dude sequenced in that Subliminal Modulation video. Too me.. i dont know, it sounded kinda bad I guess..?? I mean I know that guy is big time, Birtney Spears remixes etc. However, even after he said, "Now dont go layering up and sequencing a ton of sound with your beat... just the basics, and make it sound really good.." or whatever.. then goes and does all that.

I still have more to watch, I'm sure it'll come together.

Grabbed Metrum... frickin sick!!
Old 4th December 2013
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
i'm using way shorter release times... moral of this story: Trust My Ears, and Many Comps Work Differently
Oh yeah, you gotta give that compressor a chance to open up. Glad you figured it out. Now you'll always know. Usually attack as fast as it'll go, and then the release at least 50ms, and as long as you like as long as the gain reduction makes it back to zero before the next kick.

I agree, Rick builds a very rudimentary drum loop. But the take home is the techniques to keep your drum loop from getting boring in ten seconds. He even always says, "well I would normally spend another 10 hours perfecting this loop, but you get the picture." I started noticing everything he teaches in just about every track I listen to.

Glad you like Metrum. It is a phenomenal tool. Its not cheap and no demo which I think is dumb, so that's why I feel like it isn't real well known.

I use it as my primary sample player now. The way you can scroll through all of your own samples which I have OCD labelled in folders is just so fast and easy compared to my EXS24 which blows, and the browser in Logic is just awful to. Major workflow bonus! The envelopes give you so much precise control over the sample. I want Phalanx because it looks like Metrum on steroids, but I'm content with my tools for now.

Good luck dude.
Old 4th December 2013
  #15
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Once i messed more with the comp pumping I noticed the following: The compressor must conform to the sidechain signal its fed... end of story. Which to me meant that depending on the signal, could result in quite a variety of compressor settings that would finally pump in time. It could be an attack of .07ms to 20ms, or a release of 10ms to 400ms, a ratio of 3:1 to 27:1, a threshold of -20db to -inf db., etc. (I still dont get how the 440ms in logic worked... but it did). Three different net tutorials i watched had compressor setting that were quite different from one another.

As far as Ricks tutorial... its not that I thought anything sounded basic at all... I totally agree with that. What I meant was that all of the shakers and everything piled all over one another did not sound good too me... I though he was goin overboard.. One minute he's sayin that layering kicks shouldnt be done (which at the low frequencies does play havoc if not done skilfully) but than in terms of the upper frequency range, I would expect that they would sound ****ty as well, obviously no PA's will blowout but still. Piled up frequecies, are piled up frequencies.

Phalanx is sick, I think Vengeances GUI's look sweet! Especially that Multiband comp, that **** is the gnarliest one I've ever seen! Phalanx is no different. I have Mach5, Kontakt, and FL's Direct Wave, not to mention Ableton's. I can't honestly say that I need that thing... but I then again, I wouldnt be on GearSlutz if I did say that now would I!!
The one thing I didnt like (and this goes with Metrum, and various reverbs) is the lack of a stereo-spread control. Ofcourse most DAW's have utilities for stereo width control, but still... that should be included in Phalanx, Metrum, and any reverb device for that matter.

Anyone else: please feel free to leave your "two cents" on the pumping subject; although, it is all over the net.

Last edited by qb748t394; 5th December 2013 at 12:04 AM.. Reason: forgot stuff
Old 5th December 2013
  #16
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still having problems tho..

i find myself always wanting to say **** this, and just automate

Last edited by qb748t394; 5th December 2013 at 01:47 AM.. Reason: add more
Old 5th December 2013
  #17
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meriter's Avatar
 

ive always thought that was just reverse gate reverb on the kick
Old 5th December 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallowah View Post
.


Sidechained kick reverb




.
The first trick in here is exactly what you're looking for. The other two sound like ass.

If you need a deeper tone, find a darker reverb that has more low mid to it. Or just boost the low mids on what you have.
Old 5th December 2013
  #19
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Signifier's Avatar
Gated reverse verbs - first used to effect in techno by CJ Bolland on his track 'Springyard' back in 1993... Sounds like a MIDIVerb was what he used on the 909 kick - low diffusion settings, lovely and abrasive.

Old 5th December 2013
  #20
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Dude that song is tootally dope!!

Yeah.. I didnt like the other examples in the video either.. different taste i suppose.

Last night I threw an Mpressor on there, and it was like, I couln't NOT make it pump right. That thing worked great.
Old 6th December 2013
  #21
Midi gates.
Old 6th December 2013
  #22
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If you want to have a really bad low end rumble it has something to do with action movies. You have to think what they did use to get that huge boooOOOoomsstchsh sound when there was an enormous distant explosion. It was a certain reverb Sample that and well, you got it!
Old 6th December 2013
  #23
Deleted 2ecf148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StringBean View Post
The first trick in here is exactly what you're looking for. The other two sound like ass.

If you need a deeper tone, find a darker reverb that has more low mid to it. Or just boost the low mids on what you have.
jeez that was boring!
Old 6th December 2013
  #24
Deleted 2ecf148
Guest
the video i mean
Old 6th December 2013
  #25
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what is that a pan flute?
Old 7th December 2013
  #26
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I apologize for wasting anyone's time with this post... this is quite an easy technique that can can be done in countless ways. SOmetimes I have a problem with posting before I even think... I like this site a lot, and sometimes just want to ask you all anything. I need to restrain myself.
Old 7th December 2013
  #27
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
I apologize for wasting anyone's time with this post... this is quite an easy technique that can can be done in countless ways. SOmetimes I have a problem with posting before I even think... I like this site a lot, and sometimes just want to ask you all anything. I need to restrain myself.
No need to apologize.. it's a good question..
Old 7th December 2013
  #28
DSK
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For quick results ArtsAcoustic Reverb - preset #1 - Techno Kick (yep that's how it's called)

Or any other reverb that can do dense diffusion and has controls over the eq of the reverb engine.

Tweak to taste (especially in the eq portion ).

Duplicate original kick and send only the low end of it to the verb for cleaner results.
Use a different top or a different kick all together for the actual kick/click of the track for advanced results.

Sidechain or use a volume shaper. Compress. Done

I use this technique a lot of times.

For example:



Old 8th December 2013
  #29
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I dont exactly follow you DSK. You say, "Use a different top or a different kick all together for the actual kick/click of the track for advanced results."

Okay, you have your 'main kick' that plays through song, then the kick that you put through the reverb. When you say choose top for kick/click, is that, in addition to the 'main kick,' or inplace of, or top kick/click to go through reverb as well??
Old 9th December 2013
  #30
DSK
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That top should not go through the reverb yes... or no (it depends).

The idea is that it's easier to get a nice rumbled reverb of a low/low-mid kick with no top rather than eq-ing post reverb.

So for your kick to actually hit at the mids you would need to make another layer of a hipassed kick that is just there for that punch.

Another important thing is the pre-delay. That's what gives you the groove.

Anyway it's subjective it depends on the track's vibe. You can really play with this technique a lot.

It can be:
- same kick with it reverbed
- different kick with another reverbed kick for the rumble
- same kick but lowpassed + a layer that can be same kick hipassed or a different hipassed kick or click

.... etc.

Just try until it works for the track. Usually I try it simple because it works (being the same kick the sound is more coherent)

Let me know how it goes
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