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Is the Maxibrute on the way?
Old 30th October 2013
  #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatManDeux View Post
On the other side of the coin, there's more to making a decent sounding poly VCO analog than throwing moar oscillators in a box. If it was that easy, the market would have been flooded by now. The design of the VCO in today's m*Brutes doesn't lend itself to this either. It's an unorthodox and overcompensated design that pitches sharp at the highest octaves.

To make a hypothetical polyphonic MaxiBrute, the VCO design will need to be redone, and a form of auto tuning correction added per VCO.
I know the VCO is unorthodox, but what about it's design makes it more difficult to make a poly out of? Pitching sharp at the highest octaves would not be a deal breaker for me on a $500 poly.
Old 30th October 2013
  #572
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slujj vohaul's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohulahanbass View Post
No one knows if the new Microbrute's Audio In will open the gate for autowah type sounds with the envelope generator and multimode?
Nobody owns one yet to the best of my knowledge.
Old 30th October 2013
  #573
bry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
so the MiniMS20 is $599 it's based on an existing design, and according to you had hardly any R&D costs, yet they still sell this Monosynth for $599

So how could the same company take an existing polysynth design and sell it for $500 or $99 cheaper than a monosynth?
Supply and demand... the MS-20 Mini price (like so many other products) is decided after market research. What people are willing to pay is more important than what the product costs to make (of course they need to make a profit). I wouldn't be surprised if the MS-20 costs less than $200 to make, not at all.

Also, keep in mind that the original MS-20 was selling for more than the original PolySix or Mono/Poly synths... so is it that far off that recreations of both could be sold for the same price? It's not like one replaces the other, they wouldn't be competing products within Korg's lineup.
Old 30th October 2013
  #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bry View Post
Supply and demand...
Which would not work in its favor. That's why your statement makes no sense.

Cost of components != assembly and labor, r&d ( which is a real thing, contrary to claims), operating a manufacturing facility, sales team, marketing costs, customer support/repair, and of course, profit. Your claims are ungrounded and fantastical.
Old 30th October 2013
  #575
bry
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
Your claims are ungrounded and fantastical.
I'd just like to remind you that the exact same thing has been said very recently about a very unlikely $500 MS-20 reissue rumor, and how could that be possible when the original ones cost $2500...
Old 30th October 2013
  #576
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bry View Post
Supply and demand... the MS-20 Mini price (like so many other products) is decided after market research. What people are willing to pay is more important than what the product costs to make (of course they need to make a profit). I wouldn't be surprised if the MS-20 costs less than $200 to make, not at all.

Also, keep in mind that the original MS-20 was selling for more than the original PolySix or Mono/Poly synths... so is it that far off that recreations of both could be sold for the same price? It's not like one replaces the other, they wouldn't be competing products within Korg's lineup.
Lets say for example that the MS20 costs $200 in parts and manufacturing costs to make. On top of that you have to add a fixed cost of R&D, warehousing in Asia, then shipping, then warehousing again, then shipping again. Then you have marketing costs, then you have taxes, tariffs, duties, customs fees. Then you have customer support/service costs, packaging costs, and once you pay all those you have to sell it wholesale to retailers.

The end result is that the actual profit per item is not very large so you have to make that up by selling it in volumes.

Currently Korg sells the MS20 for a street price of $599 USD. Even if they could somehow market a mythical Mono/Poly or Poly 6 for $599 street doing so would most certainly hurt the sales of the MS20. The net result is way more risk for very little if any extra revenue
Old 30th October 2013
  #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bry View Post
I'd just like to remind you that the exact same thing has been said very recently about a very unlikely $500 MS-20 reissue rumor, and how could that be possible when the original ones cost $2500...
Using it as an example of why a poly analog would be cheaper is where your argument goes into crazytown.

I was never a person who said it couldn't be done, so your argument that someone once said that it wouldn't be done is irrelevant.
Old 30th October 2013
  #578
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Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bry View Post
They could do something like the Korg mono/poly, where you can use the 4 oscillators as a poly synth or as a 4 oscillator mono synth. If Korg doesn't beat them to it...
I hope Korg doesn't re-release the Mono/Poly. The difference between an MS-20 and a Mono/Poly is the MS-20 was a great sounding synth. The Mono/Poly was not.

Quote:
Of course the Tetra already does that and more, but I would honestly love to have something like that with all the physical knobs in minibrute style and with a 3 octave keyboard, doesn't need to be huge, I wouldn't even ask for presets.
Arturia would have to implement patch memories for such capability to make sense. I actually didn't know the Tetra could do that, that's pretty cool.
Old 30th October 2013
  #579
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Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRAZZ View Post
It would not be to far fetch for KORG to bring out a MONO/POLY mini. They could probably sell it for around $1295US and sell bucket loads.
I'm not sure about these days but the MS-20 was fetching $3,000 when the Mono/Poly was fetching $500. There's a reason for that.
Old 30th October 2013
  #580
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Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bry View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the MS-20 costs less than $200 to make, not at all.
In manufacturing, it's typical to price things at 10x the actual build costs to account for distribution costs, marketing costs, import taxes, distributor markups, dealer markups, etc. Korg's a big company that keeps lots of people employed, that costs money.
Old 30th October 2013
  #581
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ctrlshft's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
Even if they could somehow market a mythical Mono/Poly or Poly 6 for $599 street doing so would most certainly hurt the sales of the MS20. The net result is way more risk for very little if any extra revenue
I don't think there's much risk here at all for them in contrast to the benefits.

More products available, more interest, more sales. It's not as if Korg is cannibalizing on an existing available polyanalog. Even if it hurt the MS20 sales a little, it'd likely bolster overall sales. Considering the poly in the Volca series, there is no reason to suggest that this isn't something Korg is considering or potentially already in R&D for.

One has to consider that those distribution channels have been in place for a long time now, and it's not as if they aren't already using them for the existing products. Manufacturing one more, possibly of which might include existing technologies/topologies means if anything that the net result is more likely to be higher.
Old 30th October 2013
  #582
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Not sure how this thread turned in to a discussion of a possible Korg poly. Personally I don't have much interest in reissues. But I am foaming at the mouth for a new innovative analogue poly. PolyBrute would be a pre-order for sure.
Old 30th October 2013
  #583
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Stevism's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamblichus View Post
Not sure how this thread turned in to a discussion of a possible Korg poly.
Old 30th October 2013
  #584
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Modern VCO poly isn't too far fetched...

Polyphonic Slim Phatty Chain - YouTube
Old 30th October 2013
  #585
bry
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
Using it as an example of why a poly analog would be cheaper is where your argument goes into crazytown.

I was never a person who said it couldn't be done, so your argument that someone once said that it wouldn't be done is irrelevant.
Just like yours, my ungrounded fantastical crazytown comments are merely speculative, you don't have to believe them or even read them, you can however avoid lowering the level of the discussion.

The electronics involved in an analog synth, mono or poly, are not rocket science, they're actually pretty old ones.

The interest in analog synths faded when digital came along. Now there's a revival, but 30 years have passed, and the same exact technology is much easier and cheaper to make. For the last 20 years or so, the interest was just not sufficient to mass produce these synths, but now it might be, just look at how many new mono synths are coming out, and they seem to be doing just fine.

A poly analog remake would probably not cost them more to make than the MS-20 did. Just because it's poly you don't need to multiply the price of a mono by the number of voices. They just released a semi-poly analog with a sequencer for just over $100, so really, it only depends on the market interest and quantities, not the technology.

The Tetra is a very modern and versatile synth that can be used as a poly synth or as a 4 multi timbral mono synths, amongst a bunch of other features, and it doesn't cost much more than an MS-20, and when it comes to company size, DSI is not Korg... I really don't see what's so impossible here.
Old 30th October 2013
  #586
Gear Maniac
 

Continuing the OT conversation, I wonder if there's enough sales data yet to analyze how big the non-boutique analog synth market really is. Last year there only was the Mopho (if you can call that non-boutique) and MiniBrute. I think now that we have the MS-20mini, BSII, Pulse 2, Volcas, and soon the MicroBrute, someone may be able to better judge the size of the analog market in a year or so.

If the MicroBrutes sells like gangbusters, Arturia may well look to move upmarket. (The Micro would seem to blow the similarly-priced Monotribe and Rocket out of the water based simply upon features.) For a poly, it would have to hit a price point between the DSI Tetra and Mopho x4 because it's features would sit between the two (more hands-on control than the latter, more voices than both?). Any weaknesses a PolyBrute would have in on-board modulation relative to the DSI gear could be mitigated by more CV I/O. I do wonder if manageable CV/Gate control is possible on a polysynth...

P.S. Apologies for the pedantry, but wouldn't they just call the expanded MiniBrute "the Brute"? So far we've only seen diminutive versions of it (i.e. mini, micro). But, then again, Moog never put out a "Phatty," yet we have a Little, Slim, and Sub versions of it.
Old 30th October 2013
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kid_kozmoz View Post
Continuing the OT conversation, I wonder if there's enough sales data yet to analyze how big the non-boutique analog synth market really is. Last year there only was the Mopho (if you can call that non-boutique) and MiniBrute. I think now that we have the MS-20mini, BSII, Pulse 2, Volcas, and soon the MicroBrute, someone may be able to better judge the size of the analog market in a year or so.

If the MicroBrutes sells like gangbusters, Arturia may well look to move upmarket. (The Micro would seem to blow the similarly-priced Monotribe and Rocket out of the water based simply upon features.) For a poly, it would have to hit a price point between the DSI Tetra and Mopho x4 because it's features would sit between the two (more hands-on control than the latter, more voices than both?). Any weaknesses a PolyBrute would have in on-board modulation relative to the DSI gear could be mitigated by more CV I/O. I do wonder if manageable CV/Gate control is possible on a polysynth...

P.S. Apologies for the pedantry, but wouldn't they just call the expanded MiniBrute "the Brute"? So far we've only seen diminutive versions of it (i.e. mini, micro). But, then again, Moog never put out a "Phatty," yet we have a Little, Slim, and Sub versions of it.
Yea, not to many business analysts on this board I would imagine. The PolyBrute would not have to necessarily compete with the DSI stuff in terms of on-board modulation. The OSC design is what really sets the Brutes apart. And that is why I think they are poised to release a cheap knobby poly.
Old 30th October 2013
  #588
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slujj vohaul's Avatar
 

What about REGULAR BRUTE? That sounds the coolest to me. Then cool dudes could be like "Yo, hold up, lemme dial that in on my Regbru".

START OT:
If we're talking about different markets/demos/whatever broken down by the hundreds, I'm really interested in the ~ $250 market. It's expensive enough to expect something more than a toy, but not so pricey to be prohibitive, even to poor college kids / young professionals.

I'm really hoping either Korg or Arturia (or someone else that can pull it off on the cheap) makes a more robust analog drum machine in this price range. Something akin to the Monotribe but only aimed at drums, with a better step sequencer. No touch-strip crap. I'd be all over it. Think about pairing something like this with the Microbrute. Nerdboner.
/END OT.
Old 30th October 2013
  #589
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xanderbeanz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Dahlberg View Post
The difference between an MS-20 and a Mono/Poly is the MS-20 was a great sounding synth. The Mono/Poly was not.
I see red when someone disses my favourite synth.
Old 30th October 2013
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slujj vohaul View Post
START OT:
If we're talking about different markets/demos/whatever broken down by the hundreds, I'm really interested in the ~ $250 market. It's expensive enough to expect something more than a toy, but not so pricey to be prohibitive, even to poor college kids / young professionals.

I'm really hoping either Korg or Arturia (or someone else that can pull it off on the cheap) makes a more robust analog drum machine in this price range. Something akin to the Monotribe but only aimed at drums, with a better step sequencer. No touch-strip crap. I'd be all over it. Think about pairing something like this with the Microbrute. Nerdboner.
/END OT.
To continue OT even though I complained earlier about this thread going OT : A drum synth wouldn't need to have a step sequencer at that price, just knobs. I would pre-order.
Old 30th October 2013
  #591
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slujj vohaul's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamblichus View Post
To continue OT even though I complained earlier about this thread going OT : A drum synth wouldn't need to have a step sequencer at that price, just knobs. I would pre-order.
But if it had a sequencer it'd be so much better. I'd really want something on-board. COMMENCE COMMUNAL WISHLISTING. THE FLOODGATES HAVE OPENED!
Old 30th October 2013
  #592
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sensorfold's Avatar
 

A four voice poly called the BRUTE FOURCE.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Old 31st October 2013
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sensorfold View Post
A four voice poly called the BRUTE FOURCE.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
OK I'll pony up on that one... call it the BRUTE sQUAD. Extra points for Princess Bride referencing.
Old 31st October 2013
  #594
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AnalogGuy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanderbeanz View Post
I see red when someone disses my favourite synth.
monopoly_workshop.mp3

It sounds fantastic! I really love the sequenced sound at 01:43

Many years ago I had a chance to buy either Monopoly or Yamaha CS-40M for 900 euros. I picked CS synth because of my love for their sound, but I still regret not getting monopoly.


Sorry offtopic...
Old 31st October 2013
  #595
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Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kid_kozmoz View Post
P.S. Apologies for the pedantry, but wouldn't they just call the expanded MiniBrute "the Brute"?
Bravo!

So, what if instead of going poly, Arturia expands on the CV-Gate panel and puts out "The Brute" as a comprehensive semi-modular? I could see them being able to sell that for around $699.
Old 31st October 2013
  #596
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Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanderbeanz View Post
I see red when someone disses my favourite synth.
And I see someone who likes fuzzy, buzzy synth sounds. There's nothing wrong with that, it just means your taste skews a little outside of the norm, which is always a good thing.
Old 31st October 2013
  #597
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grasspike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrlshft View Post
I don't think there's much risk here at all for them in contrast to the benefits.

More products available, more interest, more sales. It's not as if Korg is cannibalizing on an existing available polyanalog. Even if it hurt the MS20 sales a little, it'd likely bolster overall sales. Considering the poly in the Volca series, there is no reason to suggest that this isn't something Korg is considering or potentially already in R&D for.

One has to consider that those distribution channels have been in place for a long time now, and it's not as if they aren't already using them for the existing products. Manufacturing one more, possibly of which might include existing technologies/topologies means if anything that the net result is more likely to be higher.

you forgot the selling it for $599 part. If any one would make a poly in 2014 that is not boutique it would be Korg, no dispute there but they would price it more than $599 street.

Korg has a history of dropping prices on it's small cheap synths after a year. So perhaps they would drop the MS20 down to $500 and sell a mono/poly reissue for $699 or $799

I doubt they will but they might. Even back in the day the mono/poly did not really sound all that great.

Vince Clarke said it was like playing 4 cheap synths at the same time
Old 31st October 2013
  #598
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CatManDeux's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike View Post
Vince Clarke said it was like playing 4 cheap synths at the same time
Rather a funny attribution, when we remember Vince was one of the first to buy multiple Casio CZ-101s, because they were 4-part multi timbal: 4 cheap synths in one box.
Old 31st October 2013
  #599
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I found the Microbrute answer I raise earlier, according to the manual the audio input does trigger the envelope. If memory serves this was not the case in the Minibrute.

Big plus for me, stoked to hear some jazz bass and moog oscillators through it! When I had the Minibrute I loved the sound of Moog osc + Brute filter. Can't believe what this will add to my setup for a sub $300 price.
Old 31st October 2013
  #600
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohulahanbass View Post
I found the Microbrute answer I raise earlier, according to the manual the audio input does trigger the envelope. If memory serves this was not the case in the Minibrute.
Well that is a clear advantage of the Micro for me -- I'm glad I didn't get a Minibrute first without knowing this.

Edit: Actually, from the Minibrute manual:

To trigger the envelopes when the external signal level exceeds a fixed threshold, select the Audio In position (you can change the threshold level using the MiniBrute's software; see chapter 4.4.)
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