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Korg MS20 Mini vs Moog Sub Phatty
Old 10th March 2013
  #1
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Korg MS20 Mini vs Moog Sub Phatty

There, I did it. Let's keep all of the Moog chatter in here and not in the MS20 Mini thread, yah?
Old 10th March 2013
  #2
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atma's Avatar
dat one is betta than the other!
Old 10th March 2013
  #3
Deleted 46dc28f
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Collect them all!

My shopping list:

SEM Pro
MS-20 Mini
Moog Sub Phatty(May wait for a rack version)
Moog Slim Phatty

Old 10th March 2013
  #4
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It's mini keys vs 25 keys for me. Not completely happy in either case. Korg has more vintage tone that I like. But Moog sound (which I also like) has more weight and might be more suitable for simpler music that I do. I look with interest at both of them.
Old 10th March 2013
  #5
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Although this comparing the MS-20 Mini and the SubPhatty is pointless, it is a good thing this thread is open so the Moog chatter stays off the MS-20 Mini thread.

Its all down to what you want. Is VCO phase re-trigger imporant to you? Is a sub oscillator important to you? Is full MIDI parameter automation and waveshaping important to you? Patch memory?
Go for the SubPhatty.

Is a multimode VCF important to you? Patching cables in and having a ring modulator to create a vast amount of different sounds? And do you want all that even if you are on a tight budget?
Go for the MS-20 Mini.

In terms of sound, they both sound very different and both sound great.
Old 14th March 2013
  #6
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Listening to Automatic Gainsay's MS-20 mini oscillator video, I found that some of the raw oscillator sounds, particularly the saw, sounded more like the Sub Phatty than what I heard comparing the mini to Gainsay's original MS-20 video. Obviously the rest of the synth gives the real color of the sound, but I found that interesting. The square waves were pretty different though.
Old 14th March 2013
  #7
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The raw oscillator sound of the Slim Phatty is very different to the Minitaur, as well.
/off topic.

Actually the SubPhatty would have been perfect if it has the Minitaur's VCOs and the Phatty's VCF.
Old 14th March 2013
  #8
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That's interesting. I had the impression that the Sub Phatty had a similar oscillator to the Minitaur. I'm probably thinking that because way before we found out what the Sub was some people were predicting it was a Minitaur keyboard based on the video with Herb Deutsch. I agree that would have been perfect if it had a wide range version of the Minitaur's VCO. Do you know what the VCO of the Sub is based on? is it the same as the Slim?
Old 14th March 2013
  #9
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No idea. I asked at the Moog forum where I am a member if indeed the VCOs of the SubPhatty are the Minitaur VCOs, but no answer.
Although the SubPhatty has VCO phase re-trigger (which is a Minitaur attribute), it also has variable waveforms that you can sweep through ala Little/Slim Phatty, so my guess is that they are the Phatty VCOs and not the Minitaur VCOs.

Will have to wait and see what the truth is when the SubPhatty gets released.
Old 14th March 2013
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios View Post
No idea. I asked at the Moog forum where I am a member if indeed the VCOs of the SubPhatty are the Minitaur VCOs, but no answer.
Although the SubPhatty has VCO phase re-trigger (which is a Minitaur attribute), it also has variable waveforms that you can sweep through ala Little/Slim Phatty, so my guess is that they are the Phatty VCOs and not the Minitaur VCOs.

Will have to wait and see what the truth is when the SubPhatty gets released.
The Sub Phatty is out now

In a NAMM interview, one of the Moog engineers says the oscillators are a new design and that specifically they are not the Little Phatty VCOs.
Old 14th March 2013
  #11
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i've had an LP tribute here for 5 yrs that's of fine build. i used to have a voyagerOS, and while a bass beast and it's leads are like luxury i can't say that i miss it even a little. rather dull chaps, they are. the LP i keep around because it has the most ****-hot fastest keyboard action of anything I've ever touched.

Listening to the subPhatty demos, I have to wonder if Moog Asheville will ever make a synth with an appealing pulse wave sound. update or no, it still sounds just like my other two newfangled Moogs.
the supposed 'advantage' of the variable waveshaper in the osc is moot if it doesn't shape into something distinctive enough to sound interesting in the first place... Moog pulses sound nothing like a pulse on the classic stuff - and it isn't a virtue, either, sad to say.
Old 14th March 2013
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc Cougar View Post
The Sub Phatty is out now

In a NAMM interview, one of the Moog engineers says the oscillators are a new design and that specifically they are not the Little Phatty VCOs.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaft9000 View Post
Listening to the subPhatty demos, I have to wonder if Moog Asheville will ever make a synth with an appealing pulse wave sound. update or no, it still sounds just like my other two newfangled Moogs.
the supposed 'advantage' of the variable waveshaper in the osc is moot if it doesn't shape into something distinctive enough to sound interesting in the first place... Moog pulses sound nothing like a pulse on the classic stuff - and it isn't a virtue, either, sad to say.
Whilst I kind of agree with you on the Phatty pulse wave, the Minitaur pulse wave is phat as you like and sounds much better than the Phatty pulse wave (as does the saw, imo anyway). The downside is that you can't vary its width.

Having said that, I do prefer the Phatty VCF to that of the Minitaur, especially at high resonance settings and that 1pole option, is a godsend to my music.
Old 14th March 2013
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios View Post
No idea. I asked at the Moog forum where I am a member if indeed the VCOs of the SubPhatty are the Minitaur VCOs, but no answer.
Although the SubPhatty has VCO phase re-trigger (which is a Minitaur attribute), it also has variable waveforms that you can sweep through ala Little/Slim Phatty, so my guess is that they are the Phatty VCOs and not the Minitaur VCOs.
Amos from moog answered that a long time ago on the big Sub Phatty thread:

Sub P oscillator technology is indeed coming from minitaur, but they added waveshaping as feature from LP. perfect combination me thinks.

also, i dig the filter on minitaur and Sub P, much more than one on LP/SP (too dark, cant open enough etc)
Old 14th March 2013
  #14
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nectarios's Avatar
 

Yeah I read that, but does that mean its the Minitaur VCOs, or that the technology bit refers to the VCO phase re-trigger? That is what I did not understand.

Agreed on the VCF of the Phatty, I almost always have to boost the top end when I record it. But the VCF of the Minitaur, gets "disconnected" from the VCO sound at high resonance settings, behaving like a typical analog VCF at settings close to self oscillation, whereas the Phatty VCF is more smudgy and blends nicer with the VCO output at high resonance settings, that is what I feel when I hear them side by side anyway.
Old 14th March 2013
  #15
it means what he said.. that the tech i.e. hardware build or circuit design, behind oscillators is coming from Minitaur. they have a different sound from the LP osc, and that is pretty much heard from the very first demo of SubP.


interesting what you say about "disconnecting" - yeah i noticed that with the resonance on some minitaur demos..
Old 14th March 2013
  #16
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I think the MS20 mini is far more desirable; it'll give you a sound you can't get anywhere else really (except with an original MS20). It'll be a one-of-a-kind like the minibrute and probably even more popular. The key size is an issue but they are actually bigger than the mini keys on the microkorg, so could be an acceptable compromise.

The sub phatty on the other hand will sound just slightly different from what's already available from Moog (SP/LP, minitaur, etc.), and that 2-octave keyboard is really limiting. It's disappointing because it seems it's purely a decision to prevent it from cannibalizing the LP. By the same token, it is unnecessarily large (especially in light of the short keyboard) which prevents it from cannibalizing the minitaur. I have a slight problem with products designed solely to fill gaps in a product line compared to products that are made without that kind of restriction.
Old 14th March 2013
  #17
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nectarios's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
it means what he said.. that the tech i.e. hardware build or circuit design, behind oscillators is coming from Minitaur. they have a different sound from the LP osc, and that is pretty much heard from the very first demo of SubP.


interesting what you say about "disconnecting" - yeah i noticed that with the resonance on some minitaur demos..
Fair enough. Hitting two birds with one stone then. To be honest, I would be all over it if I did not already own a Minitaur and a Slim Phatty. Love both them synths.
Old 14th March 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsynth View Post
I think the MS20 mini is far more desirable; it'll give you a sound you can't get anywhere else really (except with an original MS20). It'll be a one-of-a-kind like the minibrute and probably even more popular. The key size is an issue but they are actually bigger than the mini keys on the microkorg, so could be an acceptable compromise.

The sub phatty on the other hand will sound just slightly different from what's already available from Moog (SP/LP, minitaur, etc.), and that 2-octave keyboard is really limiting. It's disappointing because it seems it's purely a decision to prevent it from cannibalizing the LP. By the same token, it is unnecessarily large (especially in light of the short keyboard) which prevents it from cannibalizing the minitaur. I have a slight problem with products designed solely to fill gaps in a product line compared to products that are made without that kind of restriction.
You can't compare them, very different sounding synths. One offers things the other does not. Its all down to what you want from either synth.
They both sound great, although I do agree that Moog has been re hashing the same sound, for ages. But at the end of the day, that is what (most) people want from Moog, slightly different versions of the Moog sound.

Having said that, the MS-20 Mini is on my relatively short buys. I haven't been so excited about a new synth, for ages.
Old 14th March 2013
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsynth View Post
The sub phatty on the other hand will sound just slightly different from what's already available from Moog (SP/LP, minitaur, etc.), and that 2-octave keyboard is really limiting. It's disappointing because it seems it's purely a decision to prevent it from cannibalizing the LP. By the same token, it is unnecessarily large (especially in light of the short keyboard) which prevents it from cannibalizing the minitaur. I have a slight problem with products designed solely to fill gaps in a product line compared to products that are made without that kind of restriction.
i agree, those were my exact thoughts when i saw the design of Sub P , two octaves was dissapointing , yet it has that large protruding back making it lose the one thing 2octave keyboards have for them - small footprint and portability (like minibrute for example).

if i ever consider getting the Sub P, it will be a slim sub phatty version, if they ever release one.



@nectarious: the "disconnected" resonance isnt a rare problem among many modern analogs. what i found that helps, is running em hot thru a solid state pre with transformers, in order to get some saturation. i makes everything glue and stick together. it doesnt have to be high end device,, something like GAP Pre73 will do, or Phoenix Nice DI etc.
Old 14th March 2013
  #20
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nectarios's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
i agree, those were my exact thoughts when i saw the design of Sub P , two octaves was dissapointing , yet it has that large protruding back making it lose the one thing 2octave keyboards have for them - small footprint and portability (like minibrute for example).

if i ever consider getting the Sub P, it will be a slim sub phatty version, if they ever release one.



@nectarious: the "disconnected" resonance isnt a rare problem among many modern analogs. what i found that helps, is running em hot thru a solid state pre with transformers, in order to get some saturation. i makes everything glue and stick together. it doesnt have to be high end device,, something like GAP Pre73 will do, or Phoenix Nice DI etc.
Agree about smaller footprint. I am not a player so I prefer them like that, as it means also cheaper.

They most probably will do a Slim version, they just don't say it outright (typical moog behaviour) so people will be forced into buying the more expensive keyboard version.

I know about saturation, but a lot of times I want the clean liquid sound to come through without the extra harmonics of an overdriven stage along the signal chain. Which is what I love about the Phatty VCF, it just has it available, clean, straight from the source.
Old 14th March 2013
  #21
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isham's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios View Post
Although this comparing the MS-20 Mini and the SubPhatty is pointless, it is a good thing this thread is open so the Moog chatter stays off the MS-20 Mini thread.

Its all down to what you want. Is VCO phase re-trigger imporant to you? Is a sub oscillator important to you? Is full MIDI parameter automation and waveshaping important to you? Patch memory?
Go for the SubPhatty.

Is a multimode VCF important to you? Patching cables in and having a ring modulator to create a vast amount of different sounds? And do you want all that even if you are on a tight budget?
Go for the MS-20 Mini.

In terms of sound, they both sound very different and both sound great.
This summs it up !
+1

By the way something I still don't get is how they manage to have patch saving on a full vco synth (not the first one at moog but still curious ...)
Old 14th March 2013
  #22
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LiveFromKyoto's Avatar
I think they're both clear winners. I'm a little more interested in the Phatty, for its architecture with the sub + drive/saturation. That filter rips like nothing else. I really hope they do a new flagship synth and take what they've learned with it, it sounds a bit closer to the classic minimoog than the Voyager does, but with plenty of modern edge.

But the MS-20's patchability is awesome, and its filter and flexibility are no slouches either. You could flip a coin between them and come up a winner both times.
Old 14th March 2013
  #23
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isham's Avatar
Indeed they are both great tools with different colors (starting with the sub and will see for the ms-20) there is one function which is really tempting me on the ms-20:

"The MS-20 includes a frequency-voltage converter, envelope follower and gate extractor which can be used to drive it with an external signal. By connecting the output of the F-V converter to the CV input of the VCOs (VCO 1+2 CV IN) and the output of the gate extractor to the trigger input of the envelope generators (TRIG IN), the operator can play the MS-20 through his/her voice or another instrument."

Is there a way to obtain the same result with a dedicated module to use with another analog synth ?
Old 14th March 2013
  #24
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isham's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by isham View Post
Indeed they are both great tools with different colors (starting with the sub and will see for the ms-20) there is one function which is really tempting me on the ms-20:

"The MS-20 includes a frequency-voltage converter, envelope follower and gate extractor which can be used to drive it with an external signal. By connecting the output of the F-V converter to the CV input of the VCOs (VCO 1+2 CV IN) and the output of the gate extractor to the trigger input of the envelope generators (TRIG IN), the operator can play the MS-20 through his/her voice or another instrument."

Is there a way to obtain the same result with a dedicated module to use with another analog synth ?
Replying to my own question : this is the kind of module :http://www.modcan.com/bseries/e-follower.html
Old 15th March 2013
  #25
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dswo's Avatar
The Little Slim and Phatty oscillators are exponential. The Sub Phatty and Minitaur oscillators are linear. What does this mean? See Synthmuseum.com - Magazine and Moog Music Forum • View topic - SP tuning issues.
Old 15th March 2013
  #26
Old 10th April 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios View Post

actually the subphatty would have been perfect if it has the minitaur's vcos and the phatty's vcf.
+1000000000
Old 10th April 2013
  #28
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KidA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveFromKyoto View Post
I think they're both clear winners. I'm a little more interested in the Phatty, for its architecture with the sub + drive/saturation. That filter rips like nothing else. I really hope they do a new flagship synth and take what they've learned with it, it sounds a bit closer to the classic minimoog than the Voyager does, but with plenty of modern edge.

But the MS-20's patchability is awesome, and its filter and flexibility are no slouches either. You could flip a coin between them and come up a winner both times.
Agreed both are cool, except the Phatty most definitely does not sound closer to the classic minimoog than the Voyager. I had a Little Phatty for years and sold it for a Voyager and I've also played with the SPs and the Voyager sounds much closer to the classic minimoog sound 100% for sure. The LPs and SPs are great analog mono synths for the price but the Voyager blows them out of the water.

Voyager + Moog analog delay + Clusterflux = Boards of Canada
Old 10th April 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidA View Post
Agreed both are cool, except the Phatty most definitely does not sound closer to the classic minimoog than the Voyager. I had a Little Phatty for years and sold it for a Voyager and I've also played with the SPs and the Voyager sounds much closer to the classic minimoog sound 100% for sure. The LPs and SPs are great analog mono synths for the price but the Voyager blows them out of the water.

Voyager + Moog analog delay + Clusterflux = Boards of Canada
Not if you want a 1 pole response. In any case you can't compare the 2+k Voyager to the sub 1k Phatty. Althou in terms of raw sound I would choose the Minitaur over the Voyager, any day of the week.
Old 10th April 2013
  #30
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KidA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nectarios View Post
Not if you want a 1 pole response. In any case you can't compare the 2+k Voyager to the sub 1k Phatty. Althou in terms of raw sound I would choose the Minitaur over the Voyager, any day of the week.
To each his own. In any case, Moog makes incredible synths and they are all great.
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