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Digital vs analog synths synthesizer in a few sentences?
Old 22nd March 2012
  #121
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disease Factory View Post
Analog is not as powerful as digital in creating sounds, not nearly.

But basic tones and filter, analog is better.
So what's the difference between "creating sounds" and "creating tones" (with or without a filter) ?
Old 22nd March 2012
  #122
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutomaticGainsay View Post
Ha ha, what sort of messed up crap leads me to agreeing with Yoozer?
Are you agreeing with me, or am I agreeing with you?



Holla.
Old 22nd March 2012
  #123
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boon View Post
....
The profoundness of your posts escapes me, because I think you're missing the point: Analog/digital threads are not (should not be) about anything but sound. They are not about the status of gz members in the hectic modern part of music showbiz. Though people always drag other things into the discussion, and troll it. That's where the shark-jumping begins imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
What I'm dismayed most about is that people seem to need permission from a forum to do something. Topics like "Is it wrong if...?" "Am I crazy when...?". Take the topics about using loops yes/no - why would you need permission or blessing from anyone on the internet, first?
Do they really? Are they not just shy'ish posters looking for an excuse to post? I think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Meanwhile, anyone else not giving a single **** about rules or permissions (say, Skrillex, Swedish House Mafia, whatever) are collectively laughing their asses off about this, partying every week, and making money.
You think this is about laying down rules?
If your point is that people should play with whatever they have, I couldn't agree more! When I only had a 4-track it sure didn't stop me from making music. If it stops people then their will is weak and it won't matter anyway, let it go man.. If that's your point?
You know, at a certain point, it seems to be implied that people can only make ooold music on an analog. Do people really think that kids won't make music because of a hardware discussing on Gearslutz!? Relax.

Also, there are plenty threads on VSTs or about Skrillex. People can see that Skrillex does not use analogs (!!), I trust they can make their own conclusions from that. So what's the problem?

Fwiw., I personally think that Skrillex is alright, a twist on some old pop and electronic genres, but his sound (not his style, but his mixed sound) is not something that gives me synth boner, plain and simple. It's not a sound you dive into, it's a sound that hits like a wall, a somewhat flat wall. That has nothing to do with his music, it's just an observation of the sound, and what it does to me. Perhaps, as Steelyfan says, an analog chain of efx can do the trick. Getting some pleasure in the source if it's not there to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutomaticGainsay View Post
..

In any case: Analog is best at sounding analog. Beyond that, it's taste.
That being said, we've been listening to an analog equivalent for 18,000 years. There's a reason why people might favor it.
That being said, cool sounds are cool.
That being said... seriously, ****.
Something like that, yes.

OP: Try an analog for yourself and see what the fuzz is about. Forget the 'warmth', and forget the numbers, just try your hands on an analog synth, or an analog home organ, or a Stylophone. If a Stylophone makes you smile, you'll probably like a good analog synth!
Old 22nd March 2012
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Do they really? Are they not just shy'ish posters looking for an excuse to post? I think so.
Could be, but it's still messed up.

Quote:
Lol. You think this is all about laying down rules?
There are rules which you should follow in order to make good music. They get posted here all the time: thou shalt not use loops, thou shalt use hardware, thou shalt study music theory, thou shalt whatever. Follow the rules and success will be yours; it's a straight and narrow path but it will get you respect from your peers at the very least.

Don't follow the rules, and you're not a real musician; you're merely a bedroom amateur and nothing what you do is ever going to be of value or significance, and you're dismissed - unless you decide to join the cult to see the light.

Of course, the same people saying this will say "well, but this point of view is perfectly reasonable!" No; it's formed out of tradition, not necessarily reason. Tradition in itself has no value if the acts performed have no value; mere repetition has no value in itself.

Quote:
Btw. what is your agenda in these kinds of threads, I don't get it, at this point?
I don't have an agenda except for the wish that people are informed about what they make judgements about. If people are going to talk crap or praise something, it helps if they know about the subject. If you read the first post it contains a boatload of half-heard-fully-misunderstood things. A little bit of knowledge might've avoided them.

I'm not talking about subjective, impossible-to-rate qualifiers (fatness, warmth, etc.). I'm talking about things like sampling theory for which the math has already existed for decades of which people are simply ignorant - it's safer to join the chorus in the echo chamber.

Quote:
Do people really think that they are so important, that kids won't make music because of a hardware discussing on Gearslutz !?
Not kids, but certainly, decisions to buy (or not buy) something are shaped by discussions here (and on other forums).

Just look at the people not buying MPCs because they thought those were "for hiphop only", or not buying an Access Virus because they thought it was just for trance. It might mean that you're missing out on something that might've been exactly what you've been looking for all that time.

Do not underestimate the power of GS - you can actually find stuff here (as opposed to say, HC, which completely screwed itself over in every single way) and it's going to be far more in-depth than a few reviews, and it's got the air of authority. Reviews can be written by shills; shills can get ratted out on forums easier than on say, Amazon.
Old 22nd March 2012
  #125
Gear Addict
 

Back to the original thread. ( a few sentences)
When I used VA and digital I made less music, usually didn't listen to what I produced, and had less fun.
Now I am working a lot with vco analogue , often without patch memory. I enjoy the music I make and listen to it and am producing more of it.
I listen to digital stuff that others make and enjoy some of it and don't like some of it ( same as analog stuff that others make or hybrid).
That's the difference it makes to me- very personal and I don;t care about the issue in ideological terms.
Old 22nd March 2012
  #126
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djchozen91 View Post
I would like to know what you guys have to think of electronica artist Rustie and the whether you can determine if he used analogue or digital instruments to construct his tracks. Mind you, only respond to this if you haven't heard of Rustie before, or don't already know the answer from interviews, etc.

Here's a link:



Also if you can't get a good enough listen of the synths in this one due to the vocals, fast forward to 3:34 or just pick another song off the album.
Anybody??
Old 22nd March 2012
  #127
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Whatever he may use (I'd say it's all itb), it's typically the kind of (over)productions I don't like : aggressive, clean, uniformly busy, artificial...but I'm not the norm, I guess, and pitchfork (whose autority regarding aesthetic criticism is hilarious) likes it...
Old 22nd March 2012
  #128
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It would be one thing if this thread were here to educate a new generation of eager, self-disciplined, dedicated musicians who have studied music theory and history and electronic music and history and want info they can't find elsewhere.

But no; I think instead this thread is proof I've already died and gone to hell....
Old 23rd April 2012
  #129
Gear Head
 

I understand the analog and digital differences pretty well now. But since some of you said my OP is full of wrong info, can you please make some notes? I did but might still be wrong.




Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
I learned most of this from forums, so it might be wrong:
The phrases analog ‘fatness’, ‘warmth’, ‘richness’, ‘grit’, etc just mean the added harmonics (like free extra layered sounds). Some analogs sound more gritty, distorted, and edgy and others sound more smooth, which can depend on how much their VCO/DCO spits out ‘odd or even order harmonics’. Also VCO drift (an option found on some DCO and digital VA synths anyway) makes the signal/pitch constantly change so it doesn’t get canceled out by similar signals in a song and keeps it from becoming ‘muddy/cloudy’.
There’s more to it, but sounds right so far. The even/odd order harmonics prolly can’t be changed, so it’s partly why some analogues are said to have a gritty tone and other smooth when considering just the oscs and not VCF or VCA.

Digital waveforms have aliasing/stepping that causes a stuttering sound. Also the peak of digi waveforms are cut off for a loss of tone. This is because digital can’t draw a perfectly curved waveform like analog; instead it links many straight lines together to make a curve. However, with high quality modern gear, the aliasing stepping is well beyond what people can hear. I’ve read it’s easy to hear aliasing (especially on high notes) in modern gear like the Roland GAIA, but I guess that’s why it’s only about $600 new.

Wrong. Aliasing isn’t a stuttering sound, it’s like an lfo wave in the background. Here’s an extreme example from a Kurzweil PC3K8 Strange.mp3 - File Shared from Box - Free Online File Storage

Stepping falls sound like a stutter/pulsating sound. It’s from ROMplers like Tritons/Motifs/Fantoms or a knobby synth like the Roland JD-800 that uses ROM. ROMplers keep looping a short sample to play it long when you hold down the key. The dead space in between each sample causes the stutter.
The oscs in most/all hardware VA synths don’t use ROM. They first approximate the wave with 0s and 1s and linking together many little straight lines to create a curved waveform, then the hardware osc spits that data out as a true curved waveform, which won’t stutter, but can alias. VSTs use a computer, so there’s no hardware osc to shape the wave, thus it is prone to stepping falls and/or aliasing because it’s a loop-playback platform.




Okay, so analog adds extra harmonics that make the sound grittier, or smoother, etc. But if aliasing can’t be heard on high quality digital gear, can’t we just do something like this with VA gear?: layer some patches/oscs around a main sound and make the layered sounds very low almost inaudible amounts of things like distortion, noise, pitch LFO, FX, randomize things like filter LFO so the final sound has all these added harmonics?


As far as osc tone, yes, layering very quiet fx, noise, oscs similar to the main one but with modulations like pitch drift/slop, etc around a main sound will make the sound ‘fatter’ similar to why analogue’s tone is considered fat. But every aspect of an analogue like VCF, VCA, etc can’t be copied with the CPU of computers that people use and it’d be too expensive to pack it all into a hardware, so, yes, analogue has an exclusive tone that can’t be recreated digitally, yet. Advancements in research and CPU are needed but one day it will likely happen.

I read digital modulation like LFOs in analog gear (like Minibrute has) add ‘digital bad stuff’ like stepping if applied to pitch, but less so if applied to the envelope. Does a digital arpeggiator on an analog synth (like Minibrute has) even if not turned on add any ‘bad digi stuff’ ? What about digi patch memory?

Digital lfo on analog synths can alias if in the audio range, but the benefit’s that it’ll just sound like fuzz . Fuzz was said in place of aliasing by the person who likely banned be from VSE when I brought this up. I don’t get how it’d sound like fuzz and not aliasing, but anyway. A digi lfo can be synched perfectly unlike an analogue and is cheaper, so you’ll get more waveforms etc to play with. Same with analogue envelopes, there are plusses and minuses, but considering price and options, it’s fine with most people to just use digital.
Arp send gate signals and doesn’t affect the sound at all.
Patch memory adds more to the price and with analog it won’t allow total recall of the sound saved since it has a limited number of places it can save a knob/slider at and will round up/down the values when saved, making a different sound than was saved. Sounds minute, but 30 values can add up to a big deal. This is ‘cause analogue has so many more values along the full range of the slider/knob compared to a digital one that’s all set in step values already.

When analog is recorded digitally, it loses its affect and takes on digital ‘bad stuff’ like aliasing. I understand this but am willing to pay more for analog so I can plug straight into it and get the full affect, and if I record it to digital, the experience should have been more pleasant and should carry over to digital event though the sound quality will be less. I’m pretty set on a totally analog synth (analog LFOs, modulation, VCO, no patch memory, etc), but I still don’t get it. Can you explain the benefit(s) in simple wording?
wrong. Recording analogue to high quality digital doesn’t loose the analogue’s character, especially with A/D converters which I know nothing about.
Old 25th April 2012
  #130
Gear Head
 

any1?
Old 25th April 2012
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
any1?
vox345: Do us all a favor and let it die. You've been told countless times by numerous people (not including me, until now) on at least four different forums that your posts are trollish. The information necessary to answer all of your questions has already been presented to you multiple times.
Old 25th April 2012
  #132
Gear Guru
when people start to bring up analog recording..when talking first about analog instruments... as if it's totally the same.. I stop paying attention.
Old 25th April 2012
  #133
Gear Head
 

It’s a big topic that’s been beat to death, and gets brought up often, I know, That’s why someone should make a simplified guide with interesting facts and sell it.

I’m just hoping a know-it-all can answer what I highlighted and I’ll be satisfied and prolly never bring up analog again. It’d take forever to search it all out assuming it’s even on some forum considering keywords and such. If you don’t like analog/digital threads, don’t open em. The existing threads are a mess with people going off topic and talking about “use what you like. analog’s just better” that has nothing to so with someone wanting to know the actual differences so they can chose for themselves. I’m not trying to troll/purposely piss people off, I just want to ask some questions.
Old 25th April 2012
  #134
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
I’m just hoping a know-it-all can answer what I highlighted and I’ll be satisfied and prolly never bring up analog again.
The answers to your questions have already appeared in this thread (and others like it).

In brief:

1) yes it is conceivably possible that any analogue process can be modeled digitally in a way that provides a universally satisfactory result. There's nothing which prevents this per se. But this is theoretical, not in practice:

2) no, satisfactory emulation of a particular analogue sound presently hasn't occurred in many notable situations - eg, minimoog software doesn't yet sound entirely like a minimoog. If you really want the sound of the minimoog, then your best option is still to have one. Furthermore, this situation may be permanent.

3) software synths are enjoyed by many for their own sound and flavour, which makes the whole topic of whether they are convincingly analogue a moot issue. These days, the emphasis in soft synths seems to be in making novel sounds which were never analogue in the first place.

4) many people prefer hardware synths for reasons in addition to how they sound.

If you take all four of those points together, you will see that so much of the discussion over this topic could be dispensed with.

Now don't bring it up again.
Old 25th April 2012
  #135
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Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
It’s a big topic that’s been beat to death, and gets brought up often, I know, That’s why someone should make a simplified guide with interesting facts and sell it.
Facts do not sway a person. People aren't able to spot lamp cord/$10K cables differences, that didn't stop the sales of $10K cables.

Quote:
I’m just hoping a know-it-all can answer what I highlighted
Nobody can make sense from that quote clusterf*ck posted up there 4 weeks ago, if that's what you're referring to.

Post your highlighted issues as concise, 2/3 sentence paragraphs, then see if someone's willing to take a shot at it.

Quote:
I’m not trying to troll/purposely piss people off, I just want to ask some questions.
Meanwhile you've wasted several weeks with this exercise in futility. Why do you put yourself through this stupid, stupid torture?

Buy the machine. Like it? Keep it. Don't like it? Sell it. Not sure? Test it first, if possible. That may involve waiting and work and money, but you've heaped this misery on yourself.
Old 25th April 2012
  #136
Gear Head
 

“Post your highlighted issues as concise, 2/3 sentence paragraphs, then see if someone's willing to take a shot at it.”

Ok, someone, I beg you to answer these so I don’t have to search keywords to sift through hundreds of threads that might not have the answer or Google and read way more than what I’m asking.

True or False? Please correct with a short note if false. Thank you.

1) Recording analog to high quality digital audio doesn’t degrade and make obsolete the analog synth’s ‘character/tone’, especially with A/D converters.

2) The two biggest/only disadvantages of patch memory on an analog synth are 1) adds more to the price. 2)it won’t allow ‘total recall’ of the saved sound since it has a limited number of places it can save a knob/slider at and will round up/down the values. Sounds minute, but 30 values can add up to a hearable difference. This is because analog has many more values along the full range of the slider/knob compared to a digital one that’s all set in much less step values already.


3) Aliasing isn’t a stutter/pulsate sound, it’s like a pitch lfo’d in the background.

4) Stepping falls sound like a stutter/pulsate. It’s from ROMplers like Tritons/Motifs/Fantoms or an ROM based VA like the Roland JD-800. ROMplers keep looping a short sound to play it long when you hold down the key. The dead space in between each sample causes the step fall.


5) The oscs in most hardware VA synths don’t use a ROM. They first calculate the waveform then the hardware osc plays that data out as a true curved waveform that won’t step fall but can alias.


6) VSTs use a Rom based platform, so they’re prone to stepping falls and aliasing.


Sorry:/
mods, feel free to delete this thread after if this post gets answered. you can delete all my other posts too. I learned though.
Old 26th April 2012
  #137
Lives for gear
 

You don't have to feel sorry
1) Yes, under most circumstances, an analog source properly converted in the digital domain should retain its character. But why do you write "especially with A/D converters." ? These are not an option !
2) basically agree, you do loose a bit of resolution (and some money).
3) no, even if it is true that our perception of aliasing can be enhanced by pitch variations.
4) There's no dead space, search for reconstruction filters
5) There's no rule (memory tables are widely used and not only for storing oscillators waveforms, in all digital/hybrid hardware synths, even those implementing "purely" synthetic models)
6) there's no rule as well (but I think most develoment platforms do offer trigonometry primitives making some uses of memory tables obsolete ?).
Old 26th April 2012
  #138
Deleted User
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I hate to chime in.....BUT....

I own a Juno 106, a Sequential Circuits Multitrak, and a MS2000B....

I also own a plethora of other VSTi's and Reason 6

Nothing sounds as FAT, PHAT as the real analog

2nd place is the MS2000B

3rd is the Virtual Instruments

When it comes to pure power and sound the analog stuff wins to my ears.

BUT....Flexibility and recall is very important...For that Digital wins...It's a tradeoff
Old 26th April 2012
  #139
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pointsource's Avatar
 

It's like comparing butter vs margarine in a few sentences...
Old 26th April 2012
  #140
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345
2) The two biggest/only disadvantages of patch memory on an analog synth are 1) adds more to the price. 2)it won’t allow ‘total recall’ of the saved sound since it has a limited number of places it can save a knob/slider at and will round up/down the values.
Moog Little Phatty stores one of 4096 possible values for each patch parameter. Believe me, it's precise enough. With a Moog/DX7 setup, I really don't have time to agonize about digital synths sounding analogue and vice versa. There's no digital vs. analogue. They are married.
Old 26th April 2012
  #141
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realtrance's Avatar
 

Digital: uses 1s and 0s.
Analogue: uses circuits.
Old 26th April 2012
  #142
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345
Aliasing isn’t a stutter/pulsate sound, it’s like a pitch lfo’d in the background.
On the DX7, yes. And it's a musically useful effect that sounds beautiful if used right.
Old 26th April 2012
  #143
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Old 26th April 2012
  #144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoozer View Post
Are you agreeing with me, or am I agreeing with you?



Holla.
So, when will we hear some tests, A vs B?
Old 26th April 2012
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Digital: uses 1s and 0s.
Analogue: uses circuits.
cant be more simple then that.
Old 26th April 2012
  #147
Gear Head
 

^ i understand the coke vs pepsi, beer vs wine, etc, but girl vs blow up doll? doesn't fit, of course the blow up doll's better.

What a horrible start for me trying to learn what’s going on inside synths. Got band from two forums I think unjustifiably, have duplicate threads on many forums with misinformation I can’t correct or simplify (but I say it might be wrong) etc, but I understand the whole digi vs analog synth thing pretty well now. Thanks all for the info.

Am currently narrowing down basically every knobby synth available for an additional synth, so I set out to fully understand digi vs analog to see if I felt the higher price was justified. Always knew it as something simple like “no aliasing, the tone’s unique from all the elaborate things happening inside, it's more expensive and usually mono, and no one can really hear the difference in a mix”.
Never really cared about specs, dealing with all the technicalities trying to make tracks in a DAW and connecting hardware is enough for me. I likely won’t ask questions for a while. Will just read. Somehow knowing as much as some of you sparked my interest though, I got a long way to go.Gotta take things as them come.
I'm not the smartest forum member, but always one of my fav musicains.

thanks again
Old 27th April 2012
  #148
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
What a horrible start for me trying to learn what’s going on inside synths.
Yes, because the manner you've phrased your post in does not ask questions; it makes statements (not necessarily relevant) and then asks if they're correct.

Quote:
Am currently narrowing down basically every knobby synth available for an additional synth, so I set out to fully understand digi vs analog to see if I felt the higher price was justified.
...you could've saved yourself all this misery just by listening, or saying which synths you already have and ask whether (list of models within budget) would be good additions.

Price is a funny thing. It's not what it actually costs to build or that it is worth it in raw materials; it's what the market's willing to bear, or what people are asking for it. Unless you can negotiate that, you're not going to get it for less, so "is it worth it" is something deeply personal.

What's worth? If I buy Komplete 8 and it allows me to crank out music quickly for commercials/sound design/whatever, I may not like the fact that it's software on a DVD and that I need a computer and a DAW and a generic controller, but if it earns itself back in 4 months, then it's more than worth the money.

If I spend $3500 on a low-serial Minimoog that produces one note at a time but my face lights up every time I play it because it's the kind of sound I've been looking for for 4 years or so (and more if you count recognizing the sound, loving it, but not knowing what it is), then it's worth that to me. Perhaps not to you, but the only way to know is to get it and test it. It's relatively safe to buy, since you can likely unload it for the same you bought it for.

And if it's not worth it or you're not hearing a difference between a plugin, you're not less of a human, musician or artist. Why should you give a damn about what some people on a messageboard think of you?

Buying and owning stuff is easy. Practicing and educating yourself aren't. Spend your time on familiarizing yourself with your gear, but more importantly, learn to play it.
Old 27th April 2012
  #149
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
What a horrible start for me trying to learn what’s going on inside synths. Got band from two forums I think unjustifiably, have duplicate threads on many forums with misinformation I can’t correct or simplify (but I say it might be wrong) etc, but I understand the whole digi vs analog synth thing pretty well now. Thanks all for the info.
Some people have provided you with good, brief answers. Like getting any info from the internet, you have to filter some of it. Otherwise, read a book about digital music and machines, or just go and try some gear out.

I have provided concise answers to your OP twice in this thread.
Old 27th April 2012
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vox345 View Post
^
What a horrible start for me trying to learn what’s going on inside synths. Got band from two forums I think unjustifiably, have duplicate threads on many forums with misinformation I can’t correct or simplify (but I say it might be wrong) etc, but I understand the whole digi vs analog synth thing pretty well now. Thanks all for the info.


You've asked the same questions over and over, stated misinformation as fact, as well as ignoring some honest informative answers from certain posters who have neither a pro nor anti analogue ax to grind. That may have comtributed toward you receiving bans.

Some of the threads you have posted give me a similar feeling to banging my head against the wall repeatedly. None of the information you are trying to digest is going to make a lot of sense unless you listen to some real synthesizers of both analogue and digital persuasion.
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