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SC Prophet 5 VS Oberheim Four Voice
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
spoken like someone who hasn't tried both new and old SEM.

both choices are good and valid, but in up to the individual, as per their pros/cons. your blanket explanation is an indirect insult to ppl who choose the old one over new, basically saying we are deaf, but very very nostalgic. bollocks.
I also wrote that there's a slight difference in tone (i don't know if "deaf" is the right adjective. Maybe "blind" should fit more nicely... Read again) - but that in my opinion that difference isn't that big like between other new re-incarnations of old synths (such as voyager vs minimoog d, prophet 5 vs prophet 08, etc). In this case it's not like the old and new sem are 180 degrees apart.

Maybe the sentence concerning nostalgia was a bit harsh - but still there's no arguing that the old fvs costs as much as it does mainly because it's a collectors item, and there are people willing to pay that much for it.
I was mainly discussing price tag. Not quality of sound.
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

+1 for four voice.
one of my dream synths

jupiter-4 sounds great too
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #33
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 View Post
I also wrote that there's a slight difference in tone (i don't know if "deaf" is the right adjective. Maybe "blind" should fit more nicely... Read again) - but that in my opinion that difference isn't that big like between other new re-incarnations of old synths (such as voyager vs minimoog d, prophet 5 vs prophet 08, etc). In this case it's not like the old and new sem are 180 degrees apart.

Maybe the sentence concerning nostalgia was a bit harsh - but still there's no arguing that the old fvs costs as much as it does mainly because it's a collectors item, and there are people willing to pay that much for it.
I was mainly discussing price tag. Not quality of sound.
Just for the record, I was very skeptical about early reports of the new SEM not sounding as good as the old ones. I have a new SEM which I like very much, but after playing that fully restored and calibrated vintage FVS the case was closed for me. It sounded absolutely smooth, lush, and organic whereas the new SEM has a slight edge to it that is a bit less easy on the ear (particularly with regards to resonance). Only my highly subjective impression, of course.

With that said, I would still purchase a new SO4V as opposed to fighting over a vintage FVS on eBay. The difference in sound is not a deal breaker for me in this case. The new SO4V should have numerous advantages over the old FVS which tip the scales for me (not the least of which is price ).
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #34
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gruvsyco's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
It sounded absolutely smooth, lush, and organic whereas the new SEM has a slight edge to it that is a bit less easy on the ear (particularly with regards to resonance).
But with such a small difference, couldn't that just be the age of the components? I mean, in 30+ years isn't it possible your new SEM will smooth out a bit?
BTW, I just got my SEM Pro a couple days ago and I absolutely love it. It reminds me a lot of the one I had in the 80s. But then again, I don't think I remember everything as accurately as they were... (my Moog Little Phatty reminds me a lot of my old MiniMoog.)
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #35
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruvsyco View Post
But with such a small difference, couldn't that just be the age of the components? I mean, in 30+ years isn't it possible your new SEM will smooth out a bit?
haha Yeah it could be like that... like a good vintage wine or 25 year-old single malt Scotch whiskey!

But I think Tom tweaked the resonance a bit. Not necessarily a bad thing, mind you.

All-in-all, I'm still VERY happy with my new SEM!
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
The new SO4V should have numerous advantages over the old FVS which tip the scales for me (not the least of which is price ).
I'm struggling to see what those are.
Doesn't the SOFV still include 4 x SEM's each with individual controls. So it would be as tedious matching them all enough to create a smooth four note chord?
I have the controller section on my vintage 4 Voice, which means I can control a lot of parameters globally, but then I find it much more useful to use one or two SEM's separately anyway.
The issue for me is the usefulness of a very think sounding, two oscillator analog synth, multiplied four times. 1) the sound is very dominating, 2) I often want to play more than four note chords.
As I say, I'm a 4 Voice owner and big fan.
The 1 to 3 voice mono application is superb, and I do play it polyphonically from time to time, but if I was specifically looking for a polyphonic synth I'd be looking for something far more integrated and far more versatile.
Old 8th January 2012
  #37
Gear Addict
i wish oberheim would just bring back the obx :(
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #38
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm struggling to see what those are.
I'm basing this solely on what Tom has written on his website regarding the SO4V. In the disclaimer about the limitations, he mentions several improvements which *could* make the SO4V a bit more user friendly.

Tom Oberheim.com

BTW: This was the text I thought was most promising:

"... This was the same situation with the original 4-Voice, and while certain parameters remain non-programmable, enhanced features of the new Programmer add capabilities that the old 4 Voice did not have, programmable or not. Also, the patch storage in the new Programmer is four-way multitimbral, so you can have a different setup stored for each SEM in a patch."
Old 8th January 2012
  #39
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Zombie H's Avatar
 

from tomoberheim.com

MPORTANT NOTE:

The combination of the SEM's limited programmability, combined with programmable envelope generators and LFOs in the new Programmer, allows many but not all of the SO4V's parameters to be remembered in memory patch storage.

The most important parameters that remain non-programmable in the new Son Of 4 Voice are resonance, filter modes, and initial pulse width.

This was the same situation with the original 4-Voice, and while certain parameters remain non-programmable, enhanced features of the new Programmer add capabilities that the old 4 Voice did not have, programmable or not. Also, the patch storage in the new Programmer is four-way multitimbral, so you can have a different setup stored for each SEM in a patch.

There is also a complete MIDI implementation in the SO4V, including LFO sync to MIDI clock and individual MIDI access to each SEM voice. And the patch storage includes the settings on the enhanced Keyboard Electronics / Voice Assignment section.

The SO4V is a special machine - for ease of use and fast setup, it is outdone by numerous hardware and software synths conceived for the mainstream. But there is nothing on the planet that SOUNDS like it!
Old 8th January 2012 | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louis.b View Post
i wish oberheim would just bring back the obx :(
Apparently he is working on that
Old 8th January 2012
  #41
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Zombie H's Avatar
 

wonder what the OB-X would cost in 2011 dollars if he rebuilt using discrete circuits etc
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie H View Post
wonder what the OB-X would cost in 2011 dollars if he rebuilt using discrete circuits etc
Original MSRP for an eight voice OB-X in 1979 was $5995.

Considering that the Moog Taurus MSRP was $1095 in 1978 and the T3 being a faithful replica with modern MIDI features at $1995 - you do the math (eek!)

Has there even been a price announced on the SOFV?
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC View Post
Original MSRP for an eight voice OB-X in 1979 was $5995.

Considering that the Moog Taurus MSRP was $1095 in 1978 and the T3 being a faithful replica with modern MIDI features at $1995 - you do the math (eek!)

Has there even been a price announced on the SOFV?
the new SOFV is 3500$
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC View Post
Apparently he is working on that
I highly doubt it...
Old 9th January 2012
  #45
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Zombie H's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC View Post
Original MSRP for an eight voice OB-X in 1979 was $5995.

Considering that the Moog Taurus MSRP was $1095 in 1978 and the T3 being a faithful replica with modern MIDI features at $1995 - you do the math (eek!)

Has there even been a price announced on the SOFV?

So 5-6k for a classic OBX in 2012 dollars is even cheaper than the original selling price

The dollar value back then must have been higher than now
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #46
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dan p's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie H View Post
So 5-6k for a classic OBX in 2012 dollars is even cheaper than the original selling price

The dollar value back then must have been higher than now
Thats for sure.
Most musicians can't afford real these days
though for enthusiasts and boutique pros it would be nice to have
something new you could buy.I'd have one of everything......
Old 9th January 2012
  #47
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Zombie H's Avatar
 

this can't be correct - i found an online inflation calculator but this seems i dunno wayyy too high?

The Inflation Calculator

So assuming $5,995 in 1979 dollars vs 2010 dollars (it only calculates up to 2010)

What cost $5995 in 1979 would cost $17766.74 in 2010.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2010 and 1979,
they would cost you $5995 and $1843.27 respectively.

Do you want to do another calculation?
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #48
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I e-mailed Tom Oberheim over a year ago about doing a new polysynth. His reply was if he ever did one it would be based on the OBX as the parts are available to him whereas the X-a , OB-8 and Matrix series were not. If you look on his web site you can get the guts of a SEM for $599. The OBX is based on this minus the BPF. x that by 6 is $3600 by 8 is $4800 , processing board, case and keyboard $1000 (what i'm making up so could be rubbish).....So if he did one there is a chance that it could be around $4600 for 6 voice or $5800 for 8 voice.
Old 9th January 2012 | Show parent
  #49
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie H View Post
this can't be correct - i found an online inflation calculator but this seems i dunno wayyy too high?

The Inflation Calculator

So assuming $5,995 in 1979 dollars vs 2010 dollars (it only calculates up to 2010)

What cost $5995 in 1979 would cost $17766.74 in 2010.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2010 and 1979,
they would cost you $5995 and $1843.27 respectively.

Do you want to do another calculation?
Inflation calculators use all sorts of different complex economics algorithms for calculation, so the results will inevitably differ depending on which algorithm is chosen.

Using even the most conservative algorithms, however, the comparison between the value of the dollar thirty years ago and the value of the dollar today is shocking.
Old 11th January 2012 | Show parent
  #50
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bil_g's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
youre most welcome. theres also a tempco used you might wanna pickup.

and thanks for the info ,, didnt know SW had round robin . yeah i see what you mean with separate 4 VCF control outputs.. then u could switch completely to SW envs. tho i wouldn't mind having one additional DAW/SW/output multed to all four VCF CV inputs... that way i could at least have filter sweeps and global BPM-synced LFOs, while SEMs themselves govern the usual filter env stuff.. would that work? (yep obviously id need another ES-3 or some other combination..)

or i should just cool it and dbl track the two i have. not as sexy as playing all four polyphonically i guess but i feel the time you might need to align four SEMs is enough to record even 4 passes of a single one..
Sorry to take so long...

I say go for it. A lot of the annoying time-consuming crap can be saved as something like an initialized patch/preset in software. Then you can build patches from there and then save those. Sure, you're still gonna be left with some knob work - no matter what. But to me, getting things like initial pulse width, resonance, etc. back to what you remember is a lot easier than trying to get all four filters to track together. Or all eight oscillators.

I was examining the SO4V programmer, it looks like you would need maybe 24 CV controls - 3 ES-3s. But 2 ES-3s would really do a considerable amount. 4x VCO1, VCF, VCA, and the last four can be...well whatever. I can think of lots of possibilities when you get external mults, attenuators, etc. involved. Like multing the SW env for the VCA or VCF to VCO mod.

Also, what you mention about a global filter control from SW is definitely possible and you could use attenuators after the mult to get the filters to track together. But...real-time filter tweaking, LFOs, and key tracking can all be handled by the same output you are using for the SW envelope. So, you really don't need another out.

Using Bidule VSTi inside Sonar to create the FVS makes things easy for me. Bidule's routing is so flexible and it's really easy to assign multiple plug-in controls(across multiple plug-ins) to a single knob or slider on my midi controller(MPK61), e.g. - sweeping all filters with one knob. After everything is calibrated and set, I can just save it as a track template(that's what Sonar calls them). That's what I'm referring to when I say presets/patches.

Sure, there will be an initial time investment up front. But once you develop your own operating scheme, loading a pre-calibrated FVS patch would take a couple of mouse-clicks and the knobs you have left to set wouldn't really take that long.
Old 11th January 2012 | Show parent
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bil_g View Post
I was examining the SO4V programmer, it looks like you would need maybe 24 CV controls - 3 ES-3s. But 2 ES-3s would really do a considerable amount. 4x VCO1, VCF, VCA, and the last four can be...well whatever. I can think of lots of possibilities when you get external mults, attenuators, etc. involved. Like multing the SW env for the VCA or VCF to VCO mod.
As i said on the other thread, dedicated to the SOFV - i emailed Tom and asked him if there's a chance that the final SOFV will include patch points behind each sem like on the sem pro. His reply was: "The SO4V will have a complete set of patch points".

So i guess the programmer and the overall design is going to be different than the one showing in the current picture on the tomoberheim website. Not that that will include multis or attenuators - but at least the four sem modules could interact with each other and modulate each other.
Old 11th January 2012 | Show parent
  #52
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bil_g's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 View Post
So i guess the programmer and the overall design is going to be different than the one showing in the current picture on the tomoberheim website.
Not necessarily. The jacks and the added internal wiring would be the only real change. He's probably using the secondary CV points on the SEMs or just double-tapping ones used by the programmer. Well, that's how he(or they) did it back in the day on the Two-Voice. If something needed to be used twice, it was multied at the Molex connecter. I don't think adding patch-points will affect the programmer.
Old 11th January 2012 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bil_g View Post
Not necessarily. The jacks and the added internal wiring would be the only real change. He's probably using the secondary CV points on the SEMs or just double-tapping ones used by the programmer. Well, that's how he(or they) did it back in the day on the Two-Voice. If something needed to be used twice, it was multied at the Molex connecter. I don't think adding patch-points will affect the programmer.
You're probably right, but nevertheless - it's better than having a four voice with no patch points at all.
Old 11th January 2012
  #54
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bil_g's Avatar
 

Definitely...and if I'm thinking straight, the patch-point CVs will (possibly) be added/summed to the programmer CVs. Well, I guess it depends.
Old 20th January 2012 | Show parent
  #55
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Thank you for live discussion! So.. I bought the P5 =)
Old 26th July 2014 | Show parent
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie H View Post
this can't be correct - i found an online inflation calculator but this seems i dunno wayyy too high?

...

What cost $5995 in 1979 would cost $17766.74 in 2010.
Amazingly, that's pretty much accurate. The OB-X once cost the equivalent of $18,000. And the competition wasn't much cheaper!
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