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The best college in your opinion. Dynamics Plugins
Old 17th September 2011
  #1
Gear Head
 

The best college in your opinion.

Hi

I'm studying Audio Engineering at SAE London I will probably have my diploma in 2 months.


During this course I realised that I dont want to be only rec/mix etc but also program some beats. I think SAE's EMP classes sux (and not only but thats a different story) so I'm was wondering if you can recommend me a college or perhaps tell me if its not worth it.


I was thinking about Point Black London, or Dubspot NYC.

I dont know anything about music theory, but I'm willing to learn some.

So yeah what do you think?
Old 17th September 2011
  #2
Well I think Middle Tennessee State University was worth it for me. I also think it wasn't so worth it for other students because they just didn't put in enough effort. Part of the reason I chose the school I did was I wanted the B.S. degree in the event I had to do anything outside of audio.

I got a lot out of the program and knew absolutely nothing going in. Now, 6 years from when I started that program I think I've come a long way.

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Old 17th September 2011
  #3
NYU has a cool program, the clive davis dept. of recorded music. It's supposed to be halfway between a music school and an audio engineering school; a "producing" school if you will. Not sure about some of the others you mentioned, but unlike dubspot, you leave with a Bachelor's degree, which as jkchuma mentioned is nice to have these days. Warning: it is not cheap...
Old 17th September 2011
  #4
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelube View Post
Hi

I'm studying Audio Engineering at SAE London I will probably have my diploma in 2 months.


During this course I realised that I dont want to be only rec/mix etc but also program some beats. I think SAE's EMP classes sux (and not only but thats a different story) so I'm was wondering if you can recommend me a college or perhaps tell me if its not worth it.


I was thinking about Point Black London, or Dubspot NYC.

I dont know anything about music theory, but I'm willing to learn some.

So yeah what do you think?
Don't waste your life and money and time on a course that will teach you nothing that you couldn't learn on your own. The technical part of modern Music Production is the really easy bit and nobody needs to study this at a college or school. The hard bit is the MUSIC.

If you don't have any experience and ability with a musical instrument and some pretty good understanding of music theory then attending a post graduate course in music tech will be a complete waste ( they -the course organisers and benefactors - won't tell you this tho ! ) Without some decent grounding in music theory and being able to play the keyboard to a level BEFORE you attend one of these faux courses makes it doubly worse.

IT's kind of like going to a study to be a fully trained chef.... and spending all of your time at college studying how the oven and grill works..... how the blender and food processors work... how to use a spatular sieve. But NOT learning how to make recipes, not learning how to construct sauces, prepare meats, marinades, etc.

Knowing how the kitchen works is pointless if you don't know how to construct a recipe of your own and make a dish. Knowing how to use an oven is simple.... learning how to cook is another world away.

Hardly any of these music production courses are honest with their students about what they offer in terms of what is useful in real life when you graduate and hit the streets to try and pay back your debts and earn a living. The sad truth is that there are hundreds of Music Tech colleges that have sprung up to make money for themselves and cater to mass of wide eyed students who think that this will educate them in a useful way with a tangible job option at the end. - If you don't have any musical experience before starting a college course and expect to be able to learn this stuff as well as learning your tech stuff whilst doing the course then you're really wasting your time. Far better to get a basic job and learn as much as you can musically in your own spare time over a period of say three years then go and study.

Coming out of one of these courses knowing how use the kitchen but not being able to cook is what happens to hundreds of students who come out of these courses every year. What's worse tho is that now they've wasted three years of their lives, got themselves in all kinds of debt, haven't learned what the should (and what they have learned puts them no father forward compared to the people who worked it out on their own at home) and the final insult being they have no possible career path to pay things back either

Sorry to be a hard but people have to realistic about what opportunities are out there, what you need to know, what you don't. But most of all, how not to be ripped off and screwed into taking an education which is pointless.

Beer
Old 17th September 2011
  #5
Well, they can be extremely beneficial if you have that drive to be very good at it and work very hard at it. The musical background I had before college was being a drummer. I never touched the xylophone and we only had two timpani at my high school. I did have one very basic guitar class.

In college I did have a musicianship for engineers class and the advanced class as well. So I did ear training in college. Everything you need to be a great engineer can be learned in college but it comes down to hard work, dedication, and taking and making opportunities to practice.

That being said there is a lot if art to this, especially mixing. That's where the practice makes a big difference. Getting dirty, making mistakes, and figuring out why that negatively impacted your project.

If i had to do over, I would still go to college. Without it, over the past 6 years, I don't think I would have reached the quality of work I can perform now.




Quote:
Originally Posted by aunshui View Post
Warning: it is not cheap...
You've got that right!



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Old 17th September 2011
  #6
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staylor200's Avatar
 

Going to school for this stuff can be ok, but you just have to realize you need like a million more hours of experience outside of what you learn in class. That's only a glimpse. Is it worth the money? Your call....

And you can watch YouTube videos to learn how to make beats...
Old 17th September 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

I graduated on a music production school in the netherlands and i can tell it was all worth it. What people will discover and understand in 10 years, you'll do the same in less then 4 years.

The school isn't really showing u how a program works, but how production works. They teach u how to use fx and what certain fx do and are used for.

Next to that u get special music theory so people without any knowledge of this theory will understand the whole math of music. Cause it's basically just math!

Another important thing is that they force u to rehearse with other musicians and form a bad every 6 months. With this you'll learn how to rehearse effective and how to communicate with others.

Meanwhile u make music and learn the things u need as a producer, you'll also get music history, music business, contract reading, marketing lectures and other stuff you need as musician to succeed in the future.

These schools are usefull, tho you need to know what they have to offer! Only production classes isn't the whole shabang!
Old 17th September 2011
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelube View Post
Hi

I'm studying Audio Engineering at SAE London I will probably have my diploma in 2 months.

During this course I realised that I dont want to be only rec/mix etc but also program some beats. I think SAE's EMP classes sux (and not only but thats a different story) so I'm was wondering if you can recommend me a college or perhaps tell me if its not worth it.

I was thinking about Point Black London, or Dubspot NYC.

I dont know anything about music theory, but I'm willing to learn some.

So yeah what do you think?
what is your goal?

i think SAE is not worth much degreewise

what do you want to achieve?
if its music then start with a local community college and take all the audio courses and labs

if you want a real degree get your AA at the same time
then transfer to a real uni and study music theory
Old 17th September 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Have to agree with Beermaster on this issue.

in the mid nineties i was desperate to go to SAE but the cost was out of my reach. i invested any money i could get in equipment instead and got stuck in and learnt at my own pace.
i guess i presumed i'd be taught something SAE that i could not learn myself and take the quick route so to speak.

now i look back with a wry smile and deffo no regrets at not doing a coarse.
spend your hard earned money on gear, learn to use it and enjoy the experience.
Old 17th September 2011
  #10
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Mardi Gras's Avatar
 

I got my audio engineering diploma from sae Liverpool in April. I agree, don't do the Electronic music production course @ SAE.

Honesty the audio engineering diploma taught me everything I needed for EMP. The mixing skills for working with band stems apply to soft synths and drum samples. The rest is really down to your composition skills and ability to write music, which I don't think any course can teach you.

If you're talking about learning synthesis I'd honestly suggest saving your money and grab a few books from ur library on subtractive synthesis and check out the manuals.
Old 17th September 2011
  #11
Another thought...you don't necessarily have to blow thousands of dollars on a course to get some kind of internship/apprenticeship. Honestly, I learned more about mixing and music by working under experienced people for free than from any course I took.
Old 17th September 2011
  #12
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I hope the person asking the question reads Beermaster's post more than once. These schools tell kids they can become George Martin, Martin Rushent and Daniel Miller after the 18 month course.

The US is loaded with diploma mills that promised kids they could be MTV video producers making videos for bands back in the 80s-90s. Does MTV even show videos anymore? Video game designer without learning C++, C#, Java, et al. Fashion photographer - so I can become David Heemings in Blow Up in just 18 months.

I view these diplomas mills as "child abusers." Get kids in debt for worthless diplomas. This post reminds me of another where another youngster wanted the degree but did not want to go to a proper college and work hard.

The iDiploma mentality. Get an iPhone/iPad app diploma for instant gratification.
Old 17th September 2011
  #13
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Mardi Gras's Avatar
 

I agree to an extent but my diploma taught me everything I ever needed to know about music production.

I COULD have learned it myself but this fast tracked me.

However I would not pay another £7500 to top my diploma up to a degree. As stated above unless you get your degree from an actual university it's not really recognised. Also there's nothing new they could teach me audio engineering-wise. so it would be a waste of my money.
Old 17th September 2011
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Im a Full Sail grad, I now work for 8 bucks an hour.

But at least its sort of in the music biz (Online gear retailer) LOL..

Save your money, buy some books, read this site.... If I knew about this place before full sail id still have like 50K in my pocket

Jim
Old 17th September 2011
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardi Gras View Post
I agree to an extent but my diploma taught me everything I ever needed to know about music production.

I COULD have learned it myself but this fast tracked me.

However I would not pay another £7500 to top my diploma up to a degree. As stated above unless you get your degree from an actual university it's not really recognised. Also there's nothing new they could teach me audio engineering-wise. so it would be a waste of my money.
I DID learn everything myself!
Old 17th September 2011
  #16
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RedTuxedo's Avatar
Go out and get yourself one of these...



And then a small amp.

Take a little time to learn just a few chords.

E, G, A, D, and B....

I think that would be the easiest route to learning something about music.

If you wanted a little more, get a usb keyboard and some piano lessons.

The most overwhelming thing about it is starting.
Old 17th September 2011
  #17
Gear Nut
 

I did my Master's degree at NYU Steinhardt in composition, focusing on electronics. For your situation, I would highly recommend the NYU Steinhardt Music Tech Grad program. It is a mix of philosophy, hands on, and even some composition.

The faculty are unbelievably talented.

Like someone above said, it is incredibly expensive, but I have found it to be worth it.
Old 17th September 2011
  #18
Gear Head
 

I can afford it (at least dubspot and black point blank) its the time I dont want to waste. My other option is to open a small 8/16ch recording/rehearsing studio, and try to learn about electronic music production on my own.


I really wanted to be an engineer few months ago, but recently as I said I changed my mind. The problem Im facing/thinking about is, if I focus on music production only and fail.
Old 17th September 2011
  #19
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A school like NYU would definitely be a sweet place to earn a degree, but if i could pick any music program to go into, it would have to be from UC San Diego, one of the highest rated schools in the country for advanced research and the amount of money they put into their programs is just silly. couple that with the fact that its in one of the most beautiful communities in the country (La Jolla) + the fact that they have a "Computer Music" Bachelor's, Masters, and pHD, I don't see any better choice out there.

For me, Im going to the AI of San Diego and am enrolled in the 3-year Audio production Bachelors program. I have some really amazing teachers who have worked on some very well known projects, and the information i have been learning from them is priceless.
Old 17th September 2011
  #20
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdgh View Post
I graduated on a music production school in the netherlands and i can tell it was all worth it. What people will discover and understand in 10 years, you'll do the same in less then 4 years.
Great non-specific and I'd lay money on people dedicated to learning these very minor secrets of music tech ( which really are blatantly obvious to anyone with a laptop and internet access ) being able to pick these common techniques up with a couple of hours each evening in less time than a three year course !

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdgh View Post
The school isn't really showing u how a program works, but how production works. They teach u how to use fx and what certain fx do and are used for.
Well that's a nice seven days of tuition, what do they teach you for the other two years, 11 months and three weeks ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdgh View Post
Next to that u get special music theory so people without any knowledge of this theory will understand the whole math of music. Cause it's basically just math!
You should really consider suing the people that took your money and brain washed you into believing this statement above. It is a total oxymoron. There are NO shortcuts, NO 'Idiots' Guide, It's just methodical, step by step, hard work, learn the alphabet, learn the forms... spend time. Something that you need to have an absolute love for to get and time to make it happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdgh View Post
Another important thing is that they force u to rehearse with other musicians and form a bad every 6 months.
Wonderful freudian slip. I rest my case !


Beer.
Old 18th September 2011
  #21
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sftd's Avatar
 

I'm not a special person, I am of average or below average intelligence.

I have a very large catalog of work which anyone reading this can use to subjectively gauge my next statement.

I have been producing/engineering/mixing/etc for just slightly more than two years.

Perhaps its just do to level of focus or perhaps creative retention, but I know considerably more than two individuals I know that attended a BA program in engineering and production.

Because of this, I do very much so believe the more technical aspects of all that these things entail can indeed be learned on your own fairly quickly.

My learning is frighteningly far from complete, but I have overcame the most difficult milestone which in my opinion is having the technical knowledge to free one from any hinderances that it may provided the creative side of the process.

When I have an idea, I know how to execute the technical side of it and thus need not waste any time before moving on to the next objective.

On the other hand I have played the piano for 18 years and all but perhaps two of them have been in an educational or training based situation.

On that side of the spectrum I do not believe today I would give up any of that time. The reason I say this relates to what was mentioned above, my creativity and ability to execute ideas is not hindered by a lack of knowledge.

Everything I do in the way of both learning and equipment selection for that matter is this pursuit of eliminating creative hinderances.

Perhaps taking a moment to assess things in a similar light to that could help you to figure out the best direction to take!

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Old 18th September 2011
  #22
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verve92's Avatar
 

None

Best college is a trade school. They're cheaper and you can actually do something when you finish!
Either that or move to Indonesia, China, or Australia. They have jobs for their college grads and little or no student loan debt.
Its really important to network no matter what you choose.

Best of Luck
Old 18th September 2011
  #23
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Electric Motel's Avatar
 

Trolls tend to live underground, and that's where the best techno comes from too.
Old 18th September 2011
  #24
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What Beermaster said.

Want to write and make music? Then learn to play an instrument, learn basics about music theory and harmony. Get the books, study them. Get a music teacher. Pay for lessons. Get yourself into a beginner band / group so you can learn how to play, learn from others etc.

There are of course legions of "intellectuals" on this forum who feel that this bourgeois approach I'm advocating is "unhelpful" and "destructive to innocent minds" because it "inhibits creativity" and "there are no rules to music" but the inevitable end results of their avant-garde approach is not dissimilar to giving a chimpanzee a paintbrush expecting it to produce Rembrandt like results. When they then see the results of the chimp, they indeed praise the results as if Vermeer himself couldn't have done any better! It becomes a hilarious circus of self-perpetuating idiocy where morons talk up and praise mediocrity produced by other morons until this mediocrity becomes the norm.

The "quality" (sarcasm) of contemporary popular music reflects this New Approach to "Cultural Excellence".

Music, like any discipline or field of study requires just that... study, education, learning, practice etc. These mega-mega dollar "colleges" are worthless unless they will somehow hook you up on the inside track to a position with an existing company upon your "graduation".

They don't teach anything you cannot learn from reading a couple of product manuals, messing with the equipment, asking friends and others for advice, scanning the Interwebz etc. For a fraction of the cost of their "course" you can buy perfectly usable 2nd hand equipment to study and practice on.

If the idea is to get an edukashun then go out and get a proper formal education or learn a trade (a real trade). Don't waste time and dolla on Mickey Mouse college.
Old 18th September 2011
  #25
I don't think anyone is saying college will teach you anything that you can't learn on your own, if they have they are indeed wrong. It does fast track you to being a better engineer, faster, given you work hard enough.

That being said, college is certainly not for everyone. Some just don't excel in that environment. Because of the type of person I am I feel it was advantageous. My B.S. degree gives me an advantage over others to do plenty of other jobs while business grows, but I knew plenty in college that probably shouldn't have been there. They just didn't care but thought it was what you had to do. If that's the case your wasting money.

There are plenty of successful engineers that have degrees and plenty that don't. There are plenty of both that are unsuccessful as well. Neither approach is wrong, just one is better than the other for different people.

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Old 18th September 2011
  #26
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Beermaster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by asbak View Post
What Beermaster said.

Want to write and make music? Then learn to play an instrument, learn basics about music theory and harmony. Get the books, study them. Get a music teacher. Pay for lessons. Get yourself into a beginner band / group so you can learn how to play, learn from others etc.

There are of course legions of "intellectuals" on this forum who feel that this bourgeois approach I'm advocating is "unhelpful" and "destructive to innocent minds" because it "inhibits creativity" and "there are no rules to music" but the inevitable end results of their avant-garde approach is not dissimilar to giving a chimpanzee a paintbrush expecting it to produce Rembrandt like results. When they then see the results of the chimp, they indeed praise the results as if Vermeer himself couldn't have done any better! It becomes a hilarious circus of self-perpetuating idiocy where morons talk up and praise mediocrity produced by other morons until this mediocrity becomes the norm.

The "quality" (sarcasm) of contemporary popular music reflects this New Approach to "Cultural Excellence".

Music, like any discipline or field of study requires just that... study, education, learning, practice etc. These mega-mega dollar "colleges" are worthless unless they will somehow hook you up on the inside track to a position with an existing company upon your "graduation".

They don't teach anything you cannot learn from reading a couple of product manuals, messing with the equipment, asking friends and others for advice, scanning the Interwebz etc. For a fraction of the cost of their "course" you can buy perfectly usable 2nd hand equipment to study and practice on.

If the idea is to get an edukashun then go out and get a proper formal education or learn a trade (a real trade). Don't waste time and dolla on Mickey Mouse college.
Absolutely Right !
Old 18th September 2011
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beermaster View Post
Great non-specific and I'd lay money on people dedicated to learning these very minor secrets of music tech ( which really are blatantly obvious to anyone with a laptop and internet access ) being able to pick these common techniques up with a couple of hours each evening in less time than a three year course !



Well that's a nice seven days of tuition, what do they teach you for the other two years, 11 months and three weeks ?



You should really consider suing the people that took your money and brain washed you into believing this statement above. It is a total oxymoron. There are NO shortcuts, NO 'Idiots' Guide, It's just methodical, step by step, hard work, learn the alphabet, learn the forms... spend time. Something that you need to have an absolute love for to get and time to make it happen.



Wonderful freudian slip. I rest my case !


Beer.
There is a difference in teaching to producers or keyplayers. The things you learn might not be that special and could be found on the internet, but it's about how they explain it so you'll understand it 100% and can explain it to others.

The other 2 years and 11 weeks they'll help u evolving your productions in mixdown, arrangement, samplebuilding, in depth synthesis, mastering, liveset structure and more. It's about sharing tricks and experiences. The envoirment on the school works really positive on your motivation.

Besides that you'll also have a much bigger network with lots of people who could hook u up with some top labels of different genres.

If you're the DIY kinda person, then be my guest and try everything yourself with your forum friends and stick lonely in your studio. I'd like to have some face2face explanation and collaboration and yes i pay good money for it. It was all worth it + u get your bachelor of music. It's not everything, but it's something!

I won't go for a SAE course, cause it's just dumb recording and not really about producing music yourself. This course i did was all about u and your envoirment.
Old 18th September 2011
  #28
Just to reiterate or add a balanced opinion.

It depends entirely on what you want to do. BOTH skills of the technical and creative persuasion require training.

What these courses can't teach you is creativity. You're either creative or you're not.
You WILL learn the theories behind both music and production (anyone who thinks that production and engineering isn't a technical skill is deluding themselves), but if you're going into the creative aspect, unless you've got ideas, then you may as well give up.

Degrees etc DO have a place in the Industry, but it depends entirely on which vocation you want to go in to. If technical (such as aspects of Broadcast/TV) it is a DEFINITE.
Studios, well, it's a MAJOR grey area, as your technical skills won't get your foot in the door (your personality and determination will do that, plus a bit of luck).
Techy skills merely allow you to progress up the "ladder" a lot quicker (unless you're rubbish or can't take the pressure). But this is entirely subjective.
Skills will be trained whilst in the job - it just helps to have a bit of background knowledge.

The courses that probably offer a more worthwhile grounding are those offered at local colleges, A-Level equivalents. A more rounded experience. NOT everything you need, but a good start.
Bare in mind that most people who go into this area haven't got a single clue as to what the Industry as a whole is about. Sorry, but this is the BIGGEST issue.

At this point I'll come clean and tell you that I'm not only a Course Manager & Tutor for a Music Technology course, but I also assist in the design of one of the most popular courses (at exam board level - so I work with Industry, as the vocational qualifications are designed around what the Industry wants), and I'm also producer/engineer/programmer/dogsbody with over 25 years experience. I'm still widely active in the Music business too.
Therefore I feel qualified in my comments above.

Too many "kids" expect to do these courses (and SAE are great examples of this, but more so because of the money charged) and walk out straight into a production job, manning a £250K SSL studio. Dream on.
Education will get you so far, but experience will get you the rest.

But unless you've got education (or training of some sort) in the first place, you're going to struggle.

Last edited by ScoobyDoo555; 18th September 2011 at 12:15 PM.. Reason: "bare" not "bear" :D
Old 18th September 2011
  #29
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I also work in the industry, give guest lectures at various music-tech colleges in London and universities in the SE, work alongside most of the most well known audio post production studios in London as well as taking an active roll with the British Academy. I take on around eight work experience students each year to shadow me in my studios and work with me on shows I'm scoring.

The biggest issue I have with the current spurge of courses is the 'Music-Tech' courses. Most of the original courses that first set up back in the Late 80's were Studio engineering courses aimed at people who wanted to be sound engineers, which was one very defined job and very specific to a position and a very real vocation. When the colleges wanted to cash in on more courses and more students the Music-Tech courses were invented. Here it has to be said are two major issues:

A. If you're already a budding musician with experience having learned from an earlier age how to play a real instrument and have gained some grounding in music theory then you shouldn't be wasting your graduate years on a tech course but should be furthering you musical skills with a proper music degree - the chances are that if you'd already be using a DAW by this time anyway ! - If you aren't able to get onto a serious music course then consider taking a degree in a subject that will offer you some other options.

If on the other hand you haven't learned anything up to this point about music theory nor how to play a keyboard then you're really not going to gain very much from the course.

'Music Production' and 'production Skills' are commonly used terms thrown around with hundreds of different meanings and understandings. The most radical and important elements of transforming a piece of music from one form to another from being **** to being great is the musical structures and forms within the track. To make these important differences and changes you NEED to understand the 'music' this is the language of why it sounds right or wrong, how to make it work, how to make changes, how to make a million different possibilities out of one musical seed. This has nothing to do with equipment, plugins, FX and computers. It is plain and simple Musical knowledge and arranging knowledge. No amount of technical knowhow will make a track with wrong notes and chords and bad ideas into a better track... Learning these musical skills is a only possible over a good many years with a dedicated music course and with a good grounding before you start the course. It's not possible as a 'module' within a music tech course.

B. - What are you realistic job options once you graduate with a degree in music-Tech ?

1. Post production audio engineer, yes if you start back at the runner level just like the guys who didn't waste three years doing a Music Tech course.... but this job doesn't require any music production skills so that part of your course was a waste.

2. Freelance writer producer - well, yes, if you can hold down a regular job for the first five years to support your life whilst you build your clients and experience up.... but only if you have that musical education to be able to write material that people want... and not just be another guy chopping loops up. - again you'd have been better off doing this on your own without the three years of debt.

3. Become a tutor on a Music Tech course ! - You will not believe just how many graduates come out and go straight back in to teaching the same stuff they just learned ! not a bad thing for them, just a bad thing in general as it perpetuates the myth that 'Music Tech' degrees have some value.


I may sound very harsh on this subject but it is one I am very passionate about. When young students come to me saying they're considering taking Music Tech courses or Music Tech A-Levels I always strongly advise them not to and to find other serious qualifications that will help them. Many of the top universities in the UK do not recognise Music Tech A-Levels as going towards entry onto courses... there is a reason for this !

Beer.
Old 18th September 2011
  #30
Lives for gear
 

I have yet to meet someone coming out of these "programs" that even knows how to coil a cable the right way...

Seriously...go to a real college and get an electrical engineering, or computer science, or business degree.
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