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Analog vs Digital...the last word Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 15th September 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by criminallysmooth View Post
so there's no difference between taking a road trip in a $60 billion dollar ferrari limousine vs sitting in a hay cart behind a horse, because the folks you are visiting don't care how you got there?

I dont care about this argument, I'm just an analogy aficionado
OK - You write and record a great song. It emotionally moves someone. Do you think that the "someone" who really digs your song really cares if you used an anologue or digital synth? Members of GS might care, but the average listener does not.
Old 15th September 2011
  #32
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Its futile to argue. You'll never win against the internet engineers, analogue kool-aid drinkers, physics professors, and philosophers that frequent these VS debates. Good talk though heh
Old 15th September 2011
  #33
Gear Guru
yeah... the internet kinda sucks when it comes to context...
Old 15th September 2011
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estin View Post
Its futile to argue. You'll never win against the internet engineers, analogue kool-aid drinkers, physics professors, and philosophers that frequent these VS debates. Good talk though heh
Agreed that there's no winner in these analogue vs digital discussions. But no one can deny that the average listener doesn't really care whether you used Native Instruments B4 or a Hammond B3.
Old 15th September 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky909 View Post
nothing like a sales pitch, huh?
Bob didn't really do sales pitches. He was one of the only people I've known in the MI industry who genuinely didn't give a fark for the money; he was truly a philosopher and altruist. I first met him in the lull in his career before the MoogerFooger and Voyager era, when the only product he was selling was theremins (which is how his career started). His musings on music, the nature of the human soul and creativity, and why humans love, need, and respond to music were truly illuminating and are words that any musician (electronic or not) would benefit from hearing and taking to heart. He believed in "vibrations" on a number of levels, and once said that people are like radio receivers - some people have big antennae, and some people have antennae that are tightly tuned to pick up only certain frequencies - his antenna just happened to be tuned to an unusual side-band at the crossover between circuit design and music.

I may be biased but I am inclined to believe him.

If you haven't seen the documentary "Moog" you should really check it out. He was a kind and gentle man who truly loved being "the toymaker", and his greatest joy came from helping people make music TOGETHER, not sitting alone in a room fiddling with a bunch of gadgets and a computer screen. He felt that a tambourine and a modular synth were equally important if they helped people come together to create and share music and joy.

Try to live up to that if you can, cynical bastiges.

The documentary was made by Ryan Page and the guy in the middle of this photo, Hans Fjellestad. This pic is from the filming of the scene with Money Mark playing my Voyager at my old house in Hollywood around 2003 or so - L to R is Beastie Boys keyboardist Money Mark, Bob Moog, filmmaker and musician Hans Fjellestad, me, and engineer Paula Jones.
Attached Thumbnails
Analog vs Digital...the last word-moogkitchen.jpg  
Old 15th September 2011
  #36
Gear Guru
I don't think he meant anything about it... just a funny/snarky comment.

Great post tho
My dad is a physics man... his father was an engineer. I found a lot of similarities to Moog when I watched that movie... brought a tear to my eye. I find it interesting that engineers of any kind usually have an intense interest in gardening.. my grandfather was an gardener... Actually, back in the day he made a calling machine to remind fellow garden club members about upcoming events, .. narrated by Ken Nordine.. who was also in the club.
Old 15th September 2011
  #37
Gear Addict
 

uh oh, I'm getting some pretty level 9 vector scale vibrations up in heau! UH OH! This is like riding a bull guys! OOOO AHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOO AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH yeeEEAAAAHHH!!!!!
Old 15th September 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djugel View Post
I don't think he meant anything about it... just a funny/snarky comment.
Oh, I know... but there's a lot of air-guitar specialists on here that could use a dose of Bob's thinking - that's why I recommend the documentary for any and all musicians who need to get back in touch with what music's really about...

Shared joy. Pure and simple.


Old 15th September 2011
  #39
Gear Addict
 

wooooooooh!!!!! this sucka is still going! awoooh awoooooooh!! vibrations!
Old 15th September 2011
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
OK - You write and record a great song. It emotionally moves someone. Do you think that the "someone" who really digs your song really cares if you used an anologue or digital synth? Members of GS might care, but the average listener does not.
don't lose the plot, we were talking in analogies. You're just repeating what the guy I was replying to said, only you forgot to couch it in an analogy. Let me help by way of bringing us full circle back to my post which you replied to.

OK - You "take a 20,000 mile road trip." It "emotionally moves the person you are traveling to visit." Do you think that "the person who is glad to see you" cares "how comfortable you were while traveling?"

/end analogy-ification

Maybe, maybe not. But personally I'd rather be comfortable while traveling regardless of what concern or lack of which the people at the destination have for my well being. And the overall quality of the vehicle I take the trip in will also reflect on other qualities of the trip, such as how long it takes to get there, what sights I can see, etc. Do you see where I'm going yet?

Old 15th September 2011
  #41
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by suicidebomber View Post
vibrations!
A terrible movie from the 90's with Cristina Applegate and "James" from Twin Peaks... everyone on this forum should see it!!
Old 15th September 2011
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djugel View Post
A terrible movie from the 90's with Cristina Applegate... everyone on this forum should see it!!
hmmm, I should check that out

edit: errrr never mind
Old 15th September 2011
  #43
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by criminallysmooth View Post

I dont care about this argument, I'm just an analogy aficionado
Hahaha... Solid

But seriously here wtf. A lot of the digi vs analog debate truly astonishes me. One shining example being the notion that the only people who will notice whether or not say a moog voyager is used on a big lead sound or some VST is myself or people off GS. I have no problem pulling sounds out of a voyager that you're not going to get from a VST. Just like the fact that there are many sounds you're not going to get from analog. Anyone with some wisdom on the subject knows you use the best tools for the job depending on what you are after.
Old 15th September 2011
  #44
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Ok people, digital audio has been around since the late 70s, and since then, people has been debating about analog vs digital, i believe more than 30 years of debating the same crap is enough dont you?

Nothing is going to change the fact that digital is here, has been here, and will continue to be here, period. Its as futile as debating which letter of the alphabet is better. Seriously.

Maybe we should start debating internal combustion cars VS electric cars, that would be a nice change of subject.

But hey if you still want to continue for the next 10 years with the same old "analog is warm and digital is cold" and how your little ass hairs tremble when you hear analog gear, but they dont when you work ITB, then by all means go ahead, im just tired of this debates all of the time, yet here i am.

I just wish that if the loudness war ever ends, it takes the digital vs analog debate with it to the ground. Perhaps then we could focus on the stuff that really matters and actually make some progress in other areas...
Old 15th September 2011
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
OK - You write and record a great song. It emotionally moves someone. Do you think that the "someone" who really digs your song really cares if you used an anologue or digital synth? ..
No, they won't be able to explain the difference, but don't fool yourself, sound matters. Perhaps not when you're siting in McDonald's listening to crap, but it matters when people actually listen to music. If you don't agree, why be on Gearslutz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
..
If you haven't seen the documentary "Moog" you should really check it out. ...
That was great and I agree with your assessment: Moog was a spiritual man.
Old 15th September 2011
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Ok people, digital audio has been around since the late 70s, and since then, people has been debating about analog vs digital, i believe more than 30 years of debating the same crap is enough dont you?...
Honestly? I don't suffer fools talk gladly.

When I hear someone/some company say that their VST can sound exactly as pleasng and full and real like a good analog can, I'm thinking, perhaps they have too little experience in the art of listening, or their monitoring is very inadequate. Perhaps they grew up listening to digital audio, and don't really know the sound of an analog recording on an analog system, or an acoustic instrument. Even before I got my first analog synth I knew what was missing with digital, I lived a life with music instruments (guitar/piano/cello) and listening to music, by far mostly analog music, and the digital sound domain is LACKING.

Please go to the Hi End forum and claim that there is no difference in perceived sound between analog/digital sources or even outboard, the reaction will be quite less relative than in the electronic music forum where young whippersnappers with only new digital gear and old hands alike hang out together.

I use digital too along with the analog stuff, I'm not at all trying to say people can't make music with whatever they want, they can. But let's be professional about sound, and let's be real.
Old 15th September 2011
  #47
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The average person does care if you use analog or digital...they just don't realise they care.

Most successful EDM producers will use some form of analog outboard to beef up their sound. Without this extra beef, the dancefloors won't connect in the same way.

Ever wondered why an entire army of Youtube kids fail to get their wobble bass sound as fat as this?



...think about it. Massive alone? That animalistic growl doesn't sound like it came entirely from a VST. What do kids know about Eventides or even audio inputs on modular docks and filterbanks?


It's no final answer, as Burial is a dubstep producer who makes great music 100% ITB, as does a lot of my favourite EDM style: darkpsy.

But there is more to the analog vs digital debate than a bunch of gear freaks on internet forums. That's why we talk about it so much.
Old 15th September 2011
  #48
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Analog is Analog
Digital is Digital

It is what it is. Each have their strengths

Rickenbackers sound different to Stratocasters

Analog sounds different than Digital

so what......
I'm going to play with some of my digital and analog synths
Don't stop on my account though, by all means keep going in this never ending, mind numbing, superfluous, navel gazing, droll, boring circle. I can't watch it anymore.
Old 15th September 2011
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Ok people, digital audio has been around since the late 70s, and since then, people has been debating about analog vs digital, i believe more than 30 years of debating the same crap is enough dont you?

Nothing is going to change the fact that digital is here, has been here, and will continue to be here, period. Its as futile as debating which letter of the alphabet is better. Seriously.

Maybe we should start debating internal combustion cars VS electric cars, that would be a nice change of subject.

But hey if you still want to continue for the next 10 years with the same old "analog is warm and digital is cold" and how your little ass hairs tremble when you hear analog gear, but they dont when you work ITB, then by all means go ahead, im just tired of this debates all of the time, yet here i am.

I just wish that if the loudness war ever ends, it takes the digital vs analog debate with it to the ground. Perhaps then we could focus on the stuff that really matters and actually make some progress in other areas...

the discussion might be old... but the pro-digital fraction that really started in the 80´s with the introduction of the cd and the promise of unparalleled sonic perfection has lost so much ground during this always ongoing discussion and the developers have learned so much to make it sound better, suddenly 44,1 k is not really god enough anymore...Suddenly we learned about mirror frequencys on the sample freq.. Phase problems thru the niquist filtering, jitter aso.. nobody talked about this in the early 80´s..maybe some scientists, but officially digital audio promissed perfection but just sounded not right to many professional listers..
Reasons for this phenomen had to be found.. Of cause it never was the principe that failed..just the implementation..
The digital fraction needed to explain obvious shortcomings.. so we learned about all this little things that can corrupt a digital sound.

Without the discussion we still would have the 1981 digital sound standards around and vst plug in synth would still sound like in 1998...

Still any new generation of converters sounds better than the one before.. but how this can be when we had perfection in the early 80´s allready?
Theorie and praxis?

Problem is that a new technology that safes significant amounts of money was pushed thru with a lot of lies and claims like coming with no price on the soundquality ...even sounding better,. This lies are the reason for the ongoing discussion..

When digital one day will sound as good as analoge technology the discussion will stop.. I am very certain about this..its already getting more silent since people get better converters and more stable clocks in consumer equipment. Analoge modeling brings plug ins to new sonic hights.. That you have to model analoge behaviour to please human beings says actually a lot too.

Things get better..and there are tasty dishes with meatloaf too.. you just have to consume it quickly.

Just the interesting question.. Is there really everything about audio and its reception known yet? The ongoing analoge versus digital debate seems to indicate that this is not the case.

I once heard the interesting theory that the sensitivity to digital sound artefacts is genetic and that there are certain people that really dont get a difference while having elsewise perfect listening while others feel alienated on a psychoacoustic level by artefacts that are theoretical below the borders of human perception.. Something like that theire ears/brains react to spectral inballance way below -100db.
They get alarmed by 20 db louder spectral components because in nature thats a warning..and this 20 db level difference triggers the reaction regardless how deep that might be buried in the noise floor.
I think that psychoacoustic approach is a interesting theory that can explain why we still dont have a common sense regarding the topic.

However.. digital is unavoidable.. i try to become a friend of it and experiment with a digital desk in the studio... and thats quite a step for me...
Old 15th September 2011
  #50
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Susceptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cixelsyd View Post
Analog is Analog
Digital is Digital
And AnalogDigital is the nickname I sometimes use when I play shooters or strategy games.
Old 15th September 2011
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3phase View Post
the discussion might be old... but the pro-digital fraction that really started in the 80´s with the introduction of the cd and the promise of unparalleled sonic perfection .. Still any new generation of converters sounds better than the one before.. but how this can be when we had perfection in the early 80´s allready? ..

Problem is that a new technology that saves significant amounts of money was pushed thru with a lot of lies and claims like coming with no price on the soundquality ...even sounding better ... These lies are the reason for the ongoing discussion..
Exactly!!
Old 15th September 2011
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
No, they won't be able to explain the difference, but don't fool yourself, sound matters. Perhaps not when you're siting in McDonald's listening to crap, but it matters when people actually listen to music. If you don't agree, why be on Gearslutz?


That was great and I agree with your assessment: Moog was a spiritual man.
Hmmmm - If I don't agree, why be on GS? Not sure that I understand the logic behind this question. But lemme try to understand. So in your mind, a difference of opinion means that I shouldn't be here? If that's what you're saying, then I respectfully disagree. I think sensible debate is healthy and should be promoted.

Quite honestly, I've never had anyone respond to me in this way. Basically what you're saying is that if don't agree, get lost? That just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying? I hope so.
Old 15th September 2011
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
Hmmmm - If I don't agree, why be on GS?..
I meant to ask: if you don't think sound quality matters, why are you interested in discussing production on an audio production web-site? This is not a songwriters forum, this is a production forum. Not that we can't discuss song-writing, but the main focus is on production. So the quality of the audio we're discussing is, in my opinion, of the utmost importance. Awareness of differences in perceived sound quality is thus a core issue, naturally. Don't you agree? What does it matter if not every cooncumer cares about sound? And how do you know they don't? Where is the proof of that?

Music lovers will invest in serious hi-fi gear to hear our productions, do you not think they care? Just because they don't have the technical words for it doesn't mean they don't care. I know several listerners like that, who don't produce music themselves. And the deeper question: Will people continue buying less music as the unbearable lack of dynamics and dull digital sounds continue taking center stage? I seriously am afraid of that. As a music consumer myself, I'm gettin really, really tired of investing in music that may be well written and performed but I can't enjoy it because it sounds like ****. What a waste!!
Old 15th September 2011
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
No, I asked: if you don't think sound quality matters, why are you interested in discussing production on an audio production web-site? This is not a songwriters forum, it is a production forum. Not that we can't discuss song-writing and how to program a synth bass, but the main focus is on production. So the quality of the audio we're discussing is, in my opinion, of the utmost importance.
audio quality ? not even close .... this a forum where we discuss why the Analogue synths kick ass, we dont even discuss audio quality, analogues synth are way beyond audio quality.. To be fair this last big fort of hardware synthesizer in general, I dont even remember the last time we talked about music production in general.

Of course if you think about it, you can only hear analogue sound as this is the only thing that your ear is capable of receiving so how you know that what you hear sounds digital ?

Makes the brain hurt doesnt it ?
Old 15th September 2011
  #55
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3phase View Post

As soon you do one AD conversion you are leaving the physical domain and turning energy into information.. that information gets transformed to energy again in the DA converter.. its an analoge energetic event again.. true.. but just a simulation of the source event. No original energy present, a clone. And a rather unperfect one ..roughly sliced.

The last word on digital versus analoge is actually..

you cant make a filet steak from meatloaf anymore heh
That's utterly nonsense. Your trick or error is to separate information from the physical domain. With this little trick you can build argumentations for whatever you want. Analog recordings and digital recordings are capturing information on physical carriers, whatever the medium is. It's just a different technology to store the information, to represent the original movements of air molecules. It's more an ideological obstacle to overcome for many analog fans. At least you have to prove the Shannon theorem wrong.
And e.g. there is the Barkhausen effect which makes a 'continuous', non-discrete recording with analog tape physically impossible.
An endless resolution is impossible as it would need an endless amount of information for storing. It can only falsely assumed when separating information in it's existence form the 'physical domain' (whatever that really means). Therefore your 'minced meat' metaphor can be used for all kind of recording technologies. Sometimes people are the victims of their own metaphors.
Old 15th September 2011
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post

The documentary was made by Ryan Page and the guy in the middle of this photo, Hans Fjellestad. This pic is from the filming of the scene with Money Mark playing my Voyager at my old house in Hollywood around 2003 or so - L to R is Beastie Boys keyboardist Money Mark, Bob Moog, filmmaker and musician Hans Fjellestad, me, and engineer Paula Jones.
Looks like Bob has his eye on your sandwich.
Old 15th September 2011
  #57
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zwatrif's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
I meant to ask: if you don't think sound quality matters, why are you interested in discussing production on an audio production web-site? This is not a songwriters forum, this is a production forum. Not that we can't discuss song-writing, but the main focus is on production. So the quality of the audio we're discussing is, in my opinion, of the utmost importance. Awareness of differences in perceived sound quality is thus a core issue, naturally. Don't you agree? What does it matter if not every cooncumer cares about sound? And how do you know they don't? Where is the proof of that?

Music lovers will invest in serious hi-fi gear to hear our productions, do you not think they care? Just because they don't have the technical words for it doesn't mean they don't care. I know several listerners like that, who don't produce music themselves. And the deeper question: Will people continue buying less music as the unbearable lack of dynamics and dull digital sounds continue taking center stage? I seriously am afraid of that. As a music consumer myself, I'm gettin really, really tired of investing in music that may be well written and performed but I can't enjoy it because it sounds like ****. What a waste!!
What you originally asked (If you don't agree, why be on Gearslutz?) and what you meant to ask (if you don't think sound quality matters, why are you interested in discussing production on an audio production web-site?) are 2 very different questions. May I politely ask that we put some thought into our responses before we type them? It would really help in communicating our thoughts to each other.

I've been in "the biz" for 10 years and based on my experience in people listening to my songs, sound is important - But not so much that the end-listener cares whether a keyboard part was recorded analogue or digital. My "proof of that" comes from MY experiences in pitching songs to people and the responses I get from them. It only makes sense that I form an opinion based on the responses I get - And based on those responses, my opinion is that analogue is not necessarily better than digital. And I'm OK with people who don't agree with my opinion.

I'm not here to challenge people's opinions about what they think about digital vs analogue. I'm just sharing (and hopefully helping someone along the way) some of the knowledge that I've gained from my experiences in the biz.
Old 15th September 2011
  #58
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enossified's Avatar
So which of all those words was the last one?

Mayonnaise?
Old 15th September 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
Of course if you think about it, you can only hear analogue sound as this is the only thing that your ear is capable of receiving so how you know that what you hear sounds digital ?

Makes the brain hurt doesnt it ?
Ehh, not really, but coming up it with such intricate punch lines must hurt the head, haha. heh
I used digital synths the first 5 years of my production 'career', and I regularly hit the new synths at the local pusher (even the digital!!). Last week I tried a Novation Supernova, not much seems to have changed soundwise since the last VA I tried.

One interesting point though: Cultural conditioning. Obviously, young people now are growing up with digital sounds sources, they may find it sounds exactly how sound is supposed to sound. But put them in front of a good analog and I'm sure many would like to bring it home with them.

I'm originally a guitar player and I still frequent guitar forums. It's the same thing there, people want analog, the difference is that noone in guitar forums questions this phrase: Analog sounds better. The ONLY variation is delays: some would rather use clear digital than muddy BB analog. Unless, of course, they can use a tape delay with little HF loss.
So, you could say guitar players are dumber or/and more conservative. They may be, but they are certainly tone hounds, and they want their tone singing and deep and punchy and everything at the same time, and they virtually ALL pick analog.

I frankly know NO guitar players (even young ones) who would prefer the digital emulations to the real thing, I know McLaughlin tried it on his last tour, that's about it, besides actual (digital) guitar synths, eg. Vernon Reid of Living Color.
In the 80ies, massive digital pedal boards came up and that continued for a decade, everyone wanted them and the convenience of saving setups etc. What do you think they cost now, used? Peanuts. People could not make them sound good, and ditched them. Ring any bells in the synth world?

Imho., this is not all subjective and that is eventually the point, after 40 years of trying, it's not just a subjective thing! You can always find people with other esthetic prefferences (e.g. some love love lo fi digital, the C64 esthetic etc), but I'm not sure the prefference for analog is entirely subjective. I'd say it's a pattern, a very clear pattern.
Old 15th September 2011
  #60
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwatrif View Post
....My "proof of that" comes from MY experiences in pitching songs to people and the responses I get from them. It only makes sense that I form an opinion based on the responses I get - And based on those responses, my opinion is that analogue is not necessarily better than digital...
Yes, a good tune is way more important than sound when pitching it, we can't disagree there.
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