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just bought monitors that only go down to 56Hz Studio Monitors
Old 15th September 2011
  #91
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amenbrother's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
here's my 2c.

I have previously had Event 20/20's with 8" drivers that went down reasonably low. 50-20kHz +-2db.

I moved from them to Dynaudio BM6 with 6" drivers. 43-20kHz +-3db. These had more bass from a smaller driver and were radically more revealing. Before buying the Dyns i tested out equivalent priced Adam, Genelec, Yamaha, Emes and Mackie. For me, Dyns were the best...soft domes over metal/ribbon tweeters every day for me i realised.

Anyways, after a few years on them i had some tracks mastered for release. I was told that i had too much bass in my tracks. I have a reasonable amount of bass traps and treatment, so it was probably a combination of the monitors, the placement and the room. I do tend to like to feel the bass when producing, but i dont like to monitor too loudly...so i would push up the faders on my bass tracks till sounded how i wanted it to...which i was then told be a reliable source "the mastering engineer" that it was too much.

So this is how i solved the problem...
I upgraded to a pair of PMC DB1's, tiny speakers with 5" drivers, and added an Adam sub7 subwoofer. I used the earlier tracks that the mastering engineer had mastered as reference tracks. I played these tracks back in my studio and then adjusted the sub till it sounded like how i enjoy listening to it. Then i did a few mixes and sent it to the ME to get his feedback and that had solved the problem.

So basically using the sub gave me the ability to fine tune the level of bass in my room without effecting the level of bass being recorded. I like this flexibility and think it works better than having just the nearfields. I have a foot pedal and turn the sub on and off to suit the time of day and what im working on.

Im happier with a sub than without one, but i dont think a $200 sub or $400 pair of monitors would give as good a result. If there's one thing ive experienced it is that the more expensive the speakers the better they are [obviously given everything else is equal. and YES i do have room treatment :P]
This is the way I have my set-up also, but with genelecs 8040. I think its a great way to work. The footpedal is a great and necessary solution I think.
Old 16th September 2011
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augsy View Post
well without a sound card and speakers you have no noise.... I didnt know that it was possible to produce a record with just a grand in room treatment.
Well I suppose your incredibly witty and helpful comment deserves a reply.....note I said that it doesn't matter which soundcard or speakers you use....I did not have no soundcard or speakers as options
Old 17th September 2011
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
Well I suppose your incredibly witty and helpful comment deserves a reply.....note I said that it doesn't matter which soundcard or speakers you use....I did not have no soundcard or speakers as options
Don't you think worrying about room treatment BEFORE the monitors and interface is putting the cart before the horse. He may very well be just learning, probably just beginning to understand synth's and daw's etc.

I just simply figured it would be more important to invest in some solid monitors/interface now so you don't end up wanting/needing to upgrade a year down the road. Room treatment is more of an ongoing process. He said his budget was around $700 you cant get both good monitors and proper room treatment for that, 1 makes sound while the other doesnt....Even you can figure out which one does what.
Old 17th September 2011
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augsy View Post
well without a sound card and speakers you have no noise.... I didnt know that it was possible to produce a record with just a grand in room treatment.
If you're gonna be pedantic then a computer would be the first thing he needs to buy. The point Captain Proton and others are making is that room acoustics is more important than any sound card or monitors.

Obviously he cannot make music with a shed load of bass traps and nothing else, and so if just starting out, i would recommend buying the best monitors you can afford now if you do not already have a set.

However, if you are upgrading which appears to be the case, i would stick with what you have and spend your monitor budget on sorting your room out.

It's common sense really. No monitors or soundcard are going to fix 30dB anomolies in your room. You could argue that unless your rooms acoustics are ok, you are not listening to the monitors that you have upgraded to anyhow.
Old 17th September 2011
  #95
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The problem with not having room treatment is that you will end up blaming the monitors and soundcard. Then waste lots of time and money buying and selling different monitors etc...
Old 17th September 2011
  #96
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
The problem with not having room treatment is that you will end up blaming the monitors and soundcard. Then waste lots of time and money buying and selling different monitors etc...
wont be the case. im buying yamaha hs80m's. been recommended a lot of times, wont be able to blame the room. and a monitor upgrade from crappy speakers comes before room treatment.
Old 17th September 2011
  #97
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augsy View Post
Don't you think worrying about room treatment BEFORE the monitors and interface is putting the cart before the horse. He may very well be just learning, probably just beginning to understand synth's and daw's etc.

I just simply figured it would be more important to invest in some solid monitors/interface now so you don't end up wanting/needing to upgrade a year down the road. Room treatment is more of an ongoing process. He said his budget was around $700 you cant get both good monitors and proper room treatment for that, 1 makes sound while the other doesnt....Even you can figure out which one does what.
cheers for the advice. will follow. getting deeper into subtractive and i know logic pro good.
Old 17th September 2011
  #98
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op it looks like you should go for the yamahas.
Old 18th September 2011
  #99
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I like that the Yamaha msp5s push a hell of a lot of air at you. heh From my testing the sub $2k market was a coin toss and even then there's still a lot of variety and room for personal tastes and preferences.

As others said learning how speakers translate is very important. I would put non-fatiuging/sounds good at medium low volume as number 1.

There's always the option to save the money and spend it renting some time at a nice studio. If your songs are good the mix will fall into place.

Don't worry too much and do something to tame the acoustics of your room.
Old 20th September 2011
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivid435 View Post
and a monitor upgrade from crappy speakers comes before room treatment.
Worst advice ever. By following the hundreds of threads in the acoustics forum, pound for pound you will get better results by improving the acoustics than any monitors can achieve in an untreated space. This is a fact.
Old 21st September 2011
  #101
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by dankelly View Post
Worst advice ever. By following the hundreds of threads in the acoustics forum, pound for pound you will get better results by improving the acoustics than any monitors can achieve in an untreated space. This is a fact.
not really if the speakers are crap and and can't cover all the frequencies, and colour the sound.
Old 21st September 2011
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivid435 View Post
not really if the speakers are crap and and can't cover all the frequencies, and colour the sound.
The room and monitor interaction are paramount.

I'd say both are as important as each other. A high end set of monitors will sound terrible in a square room. A low end pair will sound decent in a good room. It's all relative. Even a well treated room with the wrong dimensions may sound worse than a room with good dimensions and little treatment.
Old 21st September 2011
  #103
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Its funny people say this a lot and i think newbies ignore it, i know i did.
Some people probably get lucky with their room, ive just changed my room round and although i still dont have any treatment, the difference from moving the speakers is incredible, i think i got lucky as the sound is much flatter and the bass doesnt seem to dissappear as badly like it did how i had it before. If i move to the back of the room the bass is pretty much the same as it is in my listening position whereas before bass was heavy at the back of the room and missing in the listening position.
I definately could do with some minimal treatment to improve things.
Any tips on the cheapest kits to improve the sound somewhat. Its not quite a square room, but not far off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The room and monitor interaction are paramount.

I'd say both are as important as each other. A high end set of monitors will sound terrible in a square room. A low end pair will sound decent in a good room. It's all relative. Even a well treated room with the wrong dimensions may sound worse than a room with good dimensions and little treatment.
Old 21st September 2011
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivid435 View Post
not really
Yes really.

Quote:
A high end set of monitors will sound terrible in a square room. A low end pair will sound decent in a good room.
This sums it up.
Old 21st September 2011
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The room and monitor interaction are paramount.

I'd say both are as important as each other. A high end set of monitors will sound terrible in a square room. A low end pair will sound decent in a good room. It's all relative. Even a well treated room with the wrong dimensions may sound worse than a room with good dimensions and little treatment.
Not super sure on this one for my personal brain.

I have a rather large (high ceilinged) untreated rectangular room and in the past two years I've been doing all this have used three sets of monitors with the third being purchased two days ago.

Those were, in order: KRK Rokit 6, Adam A7x and then the newest pair Event Opal.

I would tend to think each of those is in a higher price/performance bracket than the previous, and I can unequivocally say that in my opinion each sounded better than the former while the room never changed.

To say that the KRKs sound better or more accurate than the Opals because the room is untreated is ludicrous in practice for me.

I treated my room upon purchasing the Adams but was not satisfied with the look of the room afterwards and took it all down. I'm still perfectly open to treating the room once I find a solution that is visually pleasing enough/compliant to the general design principles of my house, but I am in no rush because I feel very satisfied with my ability to judge what is happening in my music. Also, with each monitor purchase after a short learning period I believe that judgement has become easier again in spite of my room.

As an example, I have finished the first mix on the Opals as of this morning and only have a days worth of experience on them prior. I felt it was considerably easier than the first mix I completed on the Adams while the room was treated. This can also be partially explained by the fact that I've learned the untreated room so well that the treatment actually set me back temporarily.

It seems some folks adapt more quickly to the nuances in a room and the compensation resulting thereof. Because of this I believe the importance of room treatment varies from person to person.

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Old 21st September 2011
  #106
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True story - My main monitors are very good. I use Legacy Audio Focus 20/20's and they have flawless bass response, flat to 20 Hz. They sounded great in my old room.

Then I moved them to a new room last year. It is a much larger room with a much higher ceiling and I didn't anticipate any acoustics problems but I sure got them. These same high end speakers suddenly lost everything in the lower octaves. It was GONE. Like the sub drivers had been disconnected or wired out of phase. Yes, THAT bad. I just got unlucky with the math in that room and now I needed some room treatment to fix it. The room can make a huge difference, and it CAN make great speakers sound like crap.
Old 21st September 2011
  #107
But inversely, a great room CANNOT make crap speakers sound great.

You need both - and I would start with the monitors themselves.
Old 21st September 2011
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Peck View Post
I just got unlucky with the math in that room and now I needed some room treatment to fix it. The room can make a huge difference, and it CAN make great speakers sound like crap.
This is very true.

Quote:
But inversely, a great room CANNOT make crap speakers sound great.
As is this.

Quote:
You need both - and I would start with the monitors themselves.
You do need both, for optimium accuracy. I dont understand why you would start with the monitors though. Lets say for simplicity, the OP has £1000 to spend on EITHER a monitor upgrade OR acoustic treatment. He will have a flatter frequency response after treating the room regardless of the monitors, than he would if he spent the lot on speakers. Heck, if he had 10 grand to spend on monitors, they will not solve the anomolies in a standard rooms acoustics!

I dont understand why people stress over the small changes in frequency response between monitors when the sound coming from them is completely skewed by the room anyway. By all means, go and upgrade the monitors. Its obviously better to have good ones than bad ones. But if you're not going to be able to afford anything else for a while, you will hear a better improvement by treating the room first. Fact.
Old 21st September 2011
  #109
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We should re name this thread, what should you buy first: room treatment or good monitors.
Old 21st September 2011
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dankelly View Post
This is very true.



As is this.



You do need both, for optimium accuracy. I dont understand why you would start with the monitors though. Lets say for simplicity, the OP has £1000 to spend on EITHER a monitor upgrade OR acoustic treatment. He will have a flatter frequency response after treating the room regardless of the monitors, than he would if he spent the lot on speakers. Heck, if he had 10 grand to spend on monitors, they will not solve the anomolies in a standard rooms acoustics!

I dont understand why people stress over the small changes in frequency response between monitors when the sound coming from them is completely skewed by the room anyway. By all means, go and upgrade the monitors. Its obviously better to have good ones than bad ones. But if you're not going to be able to afford anything else for a while, you will hear a better improvement by treating the room first. Fact.
Just from a personal perspective (meaning your own) I'd like to know your opinion on something. Let me preface this by begging your understanding that I am in no way wishing to use this as a point of argument as I fully understand the thousands of hours of research that has shown how treatment can improve the response of an area.

That out of the way, what is your opinion of an individual that has the money to engage in a full treatment process and perhaps even has already at some point, but chooses not to for whatever reason (visual aesthetic, etc) that may be.

Would that person just be a fool? Perhaps have very poor ears? A lack of experience to back their judgement?

It doesn't by any means have to be one of those, I'm just curious as to your thoughts on such an individual after reading your (which is shared by thousands!) general opinion on the subject.

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Old 21st September 2011
  #111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dankelly View Post
You do need both, for optimium accuracy. I dont understand why you would start with the monitors though. Lets say for simplicity, the OP has £1000 to spend on EITHER a monitor upgrade OR acoustic treatment. He will have a flatter frequency response after treating the room regardless of the monitors, than he would if he spent the lot on speakers. Heck, if he had 10 grand to spend on monitors, they will not solve the anomolies in a standard rooms acoustics!

I dont understand why people stress over the small changes in frequency response between monitors when the sound coming from them is completely skewed by the room anyway. By all means, go and upgrade the monitors. Its obviously better to have good ones than bad ones. But if you're not going to be able to afford anything else for a while, you will hear a better improvement by treating the room first. Fact.
Different monitors can present sound drastically differently, and this should not be dismissed any more than the room in having a "major" impact on the overall sound.

But speakers that are decent - for about $500-$1200 bucks you can get a workable to very good pair of budget monitors, and THEN do some cheap DIY room treatment - there is really no excuse not to have both.

Not to mention, have a good speaker/room mesh in which you can hear what is happening is VITALLY important to any level of studio production.

But I had good speakers before a good room, and I can listen back to old "pre-treat" mixes and they still sound balanced.

Don't get me wrong, I have over 25 various DIY traps, diffusors, etc in my studio, but I gotta stand by the speaker being more important in the end.
Old 21st September 2011
  #112
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Only idiots say cut below 50hz. Don't listen to them.
Old 21st September 2011
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefunnel View Post
Only idiots say cut below 50hz. Don't listen to them.
That's true - you want to cut everything ABOVE 50hz!

Old 21st September 2011
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
Different monitors can present sound drastically differently, and this should not be dismissed any more than the room in having a "major" impact on the overall sound.
Agreed. Im not saying that monitor choice doesn't matter. I have Genelec 8040's so i've invested in a decent set myself. I bought these before having a treated room to work in as well, due to living with parents at the time.

Quote:
But speakers that are decent - for about $500-$1200 bucks you can get a workable to very good pair of budget monitors, and THEN do some cheap DIY room treatment - there is really no excuse not to have both.
This would be a good compromise. In fact, probably what i would do if you are going to be skint for a while. I studied the acoustics forum on GS for about a year before i got my own place. When i bought the house i was well informed, and i managed to acoustically treat my garage for about £500 with brilliant results. Rockwool is your friend.

Quote:
Not to mention, have a good speaker/room mesh in which you can hear what is happening is VITALLY important to any level of studio production.
Yup

Quote:
I had good speakers before a good room, and I can listen back to old "pre-treat" mixes and they still sound balanced.
Same here, but my mixes now are waaaay better. Partly down to my improved skills, but mainly down to my improved setup.

Quote:
I gotta stand by the speaker being more important in the end.
Fair enough, I must say im the other way though. A typical room could have 30dB peaks and troughs, no speaker has a frequency response that skewed.
Old 21st September 2011
  #115
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Susceptor's Avatar
 

Since I can't really treat my room (plus I have other priorities ATM) I always check (double check) on my cans, which IMHO translate really well to the monitors and other speakers, but also tell me how my bass is.

I sure think it's a viable (not so convenient) option/alternative to a treated room (if not possible).
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